Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 182

Wed, 14 May 2008

• 1. Re: Why is the tooth different from all other body parts? (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 2. Re: Dancing on Shabbos (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: Dancing on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Education - was RAYK and the end of chol (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous (Richard Wolpoe)
• 6. Re: Education - was RAYK and the end of chol (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 7. Dancing and clapping on Shabbos (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Dancing on Shabbos (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Dancing on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Dancing on Shabbos (Richard Wolpoe)
• 11. Dishwasher for Milk & Meat (Joseph Mosseri)

     In discussing tumas meis, the question was asked:

<The exceptions to this rule are the teeth, hair and fingernails and
toenails that have become detached from the corpse. Does anyone know WHY
the detached tooth doesn't cause impurity?

     It's a g'mara in Niddah (55a). Body parts are compared to bone. Just
     as bones are present from birth and do not regenerate (nivra imo,
     v'ein giz'o machalif), so too any body part must have both
     characteristics to be m'tamei..  Hair and nails regenerate, while
     teeth are not present at birth.  The g'mara discusses skin and flesh,
     as regards regeneration.

     Incidentally, the din itself, which is a mishna in the third perek of
     Oholos, is quoted in the daf yomi of last Shabbos (Nazir 51a), and the
     peirush HaRosh there quotes the reasons from the g'mara in Niddah.

EMT


 
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On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> I just wrote in reply to RRW:
> :: So give me the sources for dancing on Shabbos against codified
> :: Mishna!...
>
> : The Rama (OCh 339:3) cites the Tosafos (Beitzah 30a "Tenan"). They are
> : meikil on the gezeirah of instruments, since no one tunes their own
> : instruments where they actually are tunable.
>

A careful read of said Rema shows clearly tht he is NOT endoorsing this
minhag, only tolearting it in the 2nd yeish omrim.  In the first case, he
says mutav sheyihyu shoggegeim, hardly a resounding endoresement!



>
> : It's clear from the Rambam's formulation (Shaabos 32:4), who stresses
> : the connection implied in the mishnah -- the issur is against rhythm. We
> : discussed something similar in parshanus: there is indication that
> : mecholos is a kind of dancing, and another that it was an intrument. If
> : dancing, it's a dance that focusses on producing a rhythm with one's
> : feet. Don't tap dance.
> :
> : Is that a weak justification? Yes. It would require strong support from
> : outside the textual formalism realm in order to become pesaq...
>

Point it is unsupported in Bavli or even otherr Amoraic-era works.  Even in
Ashkenaz there is not poseik I know amongst Rishonim that endorsed Tsosafos
on this point, rather they were melamed z'chus on those who deviated.

Lemme say this. I don't know what the bottom line is. I am jsut saying if
Ortho's can dance on Sahbbas despite this Mishna it is imho just as
justifiable for C's to play a guita, flute, or piano on Shabbos. {I'm
avoiding organs due to electricity etc.] [I also realize that one CAN make a
hair-slit hilluk and defend dancing and  still attack playing instruments -
but I frankly find these arguments rationalizations and not ehrlich.]

Mah nafshach. You either take a legal/technical view on teh matter or a
fuzzy touchy-feely appoach about the greater good yada yada yada...

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:25:32PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
:>: It's clear from the Rambam's formulation (Shaabos 32:4), who stresses
:>: the connection implied in the mishnah -- the issur is against rhythm. We
:>: discussed something similar in parshanus: there is indication that
:>: mecholos is a kind of dancing, and another that it was an intrument. If
:>: dancing, it's a dance that focusses on producing a rhythm with one's
:>: feet. Don't tap dance.

:>: Is that a weak justification? Yes. It would require strong support from
:>: outside the textual formalism realm in order to become pesaq...

: Point it is unsupported in Bavli or even otherr Amoraic-era works...

Not really. If the gemara never ruled out dancing except as used as a
rhythm instrument, then everything else is

...
: Mah nafshach. You either take a legal/technical view on teh matter or a
: fuzzy touchy-feely appoach about the greater good yada yada yada...

I am asserting that halakhah doesn't take a boolean either-or.

And unless you accept that, you're going to continuously complain that
there is no compliance to a process. There is a process, but it involves
weighing both.

Nor is it "touchy feely" nor "greater good". It's a well informed notion
of ratzon haBorei.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> You need more than a KSA to know what "unusual" means. It's not a good
> guide to knowing what issues are contraversial. But I would agree with
> the general point, that a few handbooks is sufficient for daily din.
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>

Tangentially [for men or women]
I would say that the MINIMUM substitute for truly understanding Halcha w/o
Gmara would be the Tur and Beis Yosef [probably w/ Darchei Moshe - and Aruch
Hashulchan helps, too.]


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Levine@stevens.edu>
wrote:

>  It is time for me to begin my annual campaign to try to convince people
> that there is no reason to wait until after Tzas Ha Kochovim to daven Maariv
> on the first night of Shavuous. In fact, it seems that some shuls did not
> wait to daven Maariv on the first two nights of Pesach. See
>
> http://parsha.blogspot.com/2008/04/davening-maariv-early-
> on-shabbos-on.html
>
>
> Many may be surprised to learn that it was not the practice in the
> Ashkenazic world in the time of the Rishonim to wait to daven Maariv. Also,
> it was not the practice of some Achronim.
>
> The selections at
> 
> http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/maariv_on_shavuous.pdf<;h
> ttp://personal.stevens.edu/%7Ellevine/maariv_on_shavuous.pdf>ar
> e taken from the sefer
> *Sheirushei Minhag Ashkenaz*, volume 4, by Rabbi Benyamin Shlomo
> Hamburger.  Anyone interested in going back to the old-time religion and
> having an early minyan on the first night of Shavuous? If you live in
> Flatbush, then please let me know.
>
>
> Yitzchok Levine
>

FWIW we davened early ma'ariv at my shul in Wash. Heights/Inwood. Yeeekss
AFAIK are not makpid ot wait until tzeis for ma'ariv
Also, magen Avaraham and Aruch Hashulchan are ONLY makpid on Kiddush after
tzeis NOT ma'ariv!


Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> I don't know how you're defining "understand" but you most
> certainly can keep the halachos of kashrus, Shabbos and so
> on in your home if you know Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (or even
> if you have learned halachos mimetically at your mother's
> knee, as girls did for doros...

R' Micha Berger countered:
> You need more than a KSA to know what "unusual" means. It's
> not a good guide to knowing what issues are contraversial.
> But I would agree with the general point, that a few
> handbooks is sufficient for daily din.

For many years (for example, see my posts to Mail-Jewish from 1995, at http://tinyurl.com/5q94gc and http://tinyurl.com/5d43lq) I wrestled
with the reality of centuries long past, when a Jewish woman's ONLY
knowledge of kashrus was what her mother taught her. Her husband, the
town's Av Beis Din, may have spent many days in the beis medrash debating a
point, and getting all the local rabanim to agree that a certain item is
nonkosher. Yet, that very night, his wife serves him that very item,
because her mother taught her that it is mutar. Each goes in their own way,
confident that they know the halacha. But over the ensuing centuries, the
two streams never learn the subject together, to the level of detail
necessary to see this point of halacha, and so neither stream realizes that
the other has a different tradition. Yet the one cooks for the other, and
ignorance is bliss.

When I asked these questions, I had not yet found Dr. Haym Soloveitchik's
important article "Rupture and Reconstruction", now available online at http://www.lookstein.o
rg/links/orthodoxy.htm. I did not realize that my question was a
prototypical example of the friction between the mimetic world and textual
world, and he himself used it in footnote 18 there:

> The traditional kitchen provides the best example of the
> neutralizing effect of tradition, especially since the
> mimetic tradition continued there long after it was lost
> in most other areas of Jewish life. Were the average
> housewife (bale-boste) informed that her manner of running
> the kitchen was contrary to the Shulhan Arukh, her reaction
> would have been a dismissive "Nonsense!" She would have been
> confronted with the alternative, either that she, her mother
> and grandmother had, for decades, been feeding their families
> non-kosher food [treifes] or that the Code was wrong or, put
> more delicately, someone's understanding of that text was
> wrong. As the former was inconceivable, the latter was
> clearly the case. This, of course, might pose problems for
> scholars, however, that was their problem not hers. Neither
> could she be prevailed on to alter her ways, nor would an
> experienced rabbi even try. There is an old saying among
> scholars "A yidishe bale-boste takes instruction from her
> mother only?.

To me, a most telling comment is that "Neither could she be prevailed on to
alter her ways, nor would an experienced rabbi even try." Despite the
illogic of it, the two streams ARE compatible, in an "eilu v'eilu" kind of
way, I suppose. The men learn their way, and the women learn their way, and
if there are halachic differences, well, we'll muddle through somehow.
Because that's how G-d wants it.

Akiva Miller
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Please see the article "Clapping and Dancing on Shabbos" 
at  http://www.cckollel.org/html/parsha/vayikra/shemini5763.html

The author, Rabbi Weinrib, learns full time in the [Chicago Community] Kollel.


Yitzchok Levine 
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I am asserting that halakhah doesn't take a boolean either-or.

And unless you accept that, you're going to continuously complain that
there is no compliance to a process. There is a process, but it involves
weighing both.

Nor is it "touchy feely" nor "greater good". It's a well informed notion
of ratzon haBorei.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

------------------------------
Which of course means the baalei mesorah have tremendous flexibility
(hat tip- R'YBS).  The cognitive dissonance comes when the answer is
"sorry, my hands are tied" rather than "here's why I don't think the
ratzon haborei is served"

Secondary question then - why would we necessarily feel that
intellectual acuity is the best barometer of divining the ratzon
haborei?

KT
Joel Rich
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On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 08:30:24AM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Which of course means the baalei mesorah have tremendous flexibility
: (hat tip- R'YBS).  The cognitive dissonance comes when the answer is
: "sorry, my hands are tied" rather than "here's why I don't think the
: ratzon haborei is served"

Some flexibility. There are times when hands are tied. Tricky questions
tend to be more in the fuzzy area of "this is why it would be wrong to
let this pro outweigh that con".

: Secondary question then - why would we necessarily feel that
: intellectual acuity is the best barometer of divining the ratzon
: haborei?

I don't know if it's directly about brilliance as much as submersion
in the topic, an ability to identify the all relevent factors to weigh
(which is an issue of acuity) AND then one has what to work with for
yir'as Hashem to be of use. Having the right motives is useless if you
don't have a clear understanding of the problem.

BTW, pesaq doesn't always go to the most brilliant. When was the last
time you heard that we pasqened like the Rogotchover on something? Not
that I would sayu there the issue was a lack of yir'as Shamayim as much
as a lack of contact with nispasheit bekhol Yisrael.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 5:45 AM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> Nor is it "touchy feely" nor "greater good". It's a well informed notion
> of ratzon haBorei.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --



Thsi kind of artgumentation is beyond slippery slope. It is pandroa's box
time. every humran ad every kula can override every halacha with such a
methodology E.g. The nthere can NEVER be a to'eh bidvar hamishna becaesu
Retzon haroei trumps all!  Shades of Nadav and Avinhu and the hamishim
umassyim ish.   Do for the sake of hasehm EVEN if it is not within Halachic
parameteres!



Vritaully no Rishon brought in any kabbalh into psak. and generally kept out
Midrash, too - [except for Minhag.]  See e.g. Noda bihuda re: Sandek at a
bris in which he states explicitly re: the Rema/Maahril's use of a Midrash
based Minhag that he deos not discuss anything if it is not Talmudic.   Now
the  GRA claims the Midrash is a red-herring and that the source is the
Sefear hassidim Furthermore Rav Schwab rejeected Sefer Hassidim as a Halchic
source althoug hI am confident that it was written to convery Retzon habore.

And for that matter, virtually every devittn and anti-nomian sect has made
the same agrument about Halachah. This is the early [and rejected]
anti-nomian Hassidic notion that to daven later is better than to follwo the
zmanim in massechet Brachots  And in fact a very simlar argument is in
Matthew re: netillas Yadayim that "you Pharisees follow your elders instead
of the Will of G-d."  Ayein sham  [ch. 15 iirc]

I'm sure Reform would claim that they saved Jews from Baptism. and I
persaonlly know a C rabbi that hammers away every year that if we only
dropped Kitniyyos more people would observe the laws of Passover.   If
minhag avos wer REALLY dea, why NOT drop Kitniyos? Why NOT throw out all
rules based upon al titosh Toras Imecha for the greater Retzon HKBH?

I know a C rabbi who advocates that all kaorbanos should be thrown out
entirely because the nevi'im railed against it. He claims THAT is the Retzon
haborei, lama li rov vicheichem!

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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In 1960 Rabbi Matloub Abadi who was the Poseq for the Syrian Jewish
community in New York wrote a teshoubah on this subject.

His conclusion:
It is permissible to use a dishwasher to use a dishwasher for meat and milk
utensils, even together, even if they are "bene yoman" for Sepharadim and
Ashkenazim alike.

This teshoubah appears in Maghen Ba'adi, siman 19, pages 102-111.

Joseph Mosseri

*******************



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