Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 277

Thu, 31 Jul 2008

• 1. Re: Can you build a community around Halakhic Man? (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Differences between Charedism and Modern Orthodoxy (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: siruv (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Can you build a community around Halakhic Man? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Can you build a community around Halakhic Man? (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Can you build a community around Halakhic Man? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Misayei'a L'Dvar Aveira - cashier situation (Doron Beckerman)
• 8. Misayei'a L'Dvar Aveira - cashier situation (M Cohen)
• 9. Like A Lion (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: Misayei'a L'Dvar Aveira - cashier situation (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Misayei'a L'Dvar Aveira - cashier situation (Doron Beckerman)
• 12. being a policeman, fireman (M Cohen)

 



Mi-Instead, halakhah as experienced is more about submission.
========================================

Me-that's how we choose to experience it. I may not be that good at math
so for me creativity may be understanding SAS in geometry, for you it
may be advanced calc - it's still creativity at our own levels
==================================================



Mi-
 You don't want half-baked lomdus and people pasqening for themselves
from ignorance.
==========================================
Me- no, you want them seeking a little more understanding each time (the
guide by their side rather than the sage on the stage) and that's their
creativity

KT
Joel Rich 
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And WRT general advice: R' Dovid Cohen, certainly not MO, does not
believe that "the gedolim" have any guarantee of getting answers right.
Rather, he shows that without a melekh, some of the authority of
melukhah fell to the rabbanim. So RDC still says that we need to turn to
gedolei Torah to run a community but because of authority, not accuracy.
======================
I've heard R'HS say something similar but what is the source? R' Koo
says that the authority of the melech goes back to the Am, which is
consistent with Hkb"h's lack of trust of the individual  (this is the
reason given by R' YBS for the split of powers between sanhedrin and
melech) 

KT
Joel Rich 
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R' Saul Guberman wrote:
> ... the Rabbi, at the Shabbos drasha time, taught some
> hilchot of Seruv & announced the name of the person.  He
> explained the Minyan's policy but stopped short of putting
> him in Cherem.

You seem to be saying that Cherem is more severe than Seruv. That sounds familiar, but could someone illustrate some of the difference between them?

Thanks!
Akiva Miller

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On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 05:39:48PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
:> Instead, halakhah as experienced is more about submission.

: that's how we choose to experience it. I may not be that good at math
: so for me creativity may be understanding SAS in geometry, for you it
: may be advanced calc - it's still creativity at our own levels

Now, that's how we /can/ experience it. Okay, if you pick a less
Brisker derekh, you can choose connecting to/through halakhah rather
than submission. My point was more to rule out creativity.

The problem is that I disagree with your next statement:
:> You don't want half-baked lomdus and people pasqening for themselves
:> from ignorance.

: no, you want them seeking a little more understanding each time (the
: guide by their side rather than the sage on the stage) and that's their
: creativity

I disagree that that's "creativity". Posqim create; sho'alim
follow. Understanding someone else's pesaq isn't partnering with G-d
in creation, it's submitting to his superior knowledge/gestalt. Emunas
Chakhamim in a non-contraversial sense of the words -- trusting their
halakhic statements.

When the typical balebas thinks he can create his own pesaq in response
to his own encounter with the modern, what follows isn't quite shemiras
hamitzvos.

And this is why I'm asserting that there is no path from here to there
for the masses who will never develop that skill. There is a disadvantage
to being partway there until you reach that threshold. And what results
is compartmentalization and compromise.

I am also assering that of the derakhim that are currently popular,
RYBS's may be unique in having that trench in which being partway there
is worse than not trying.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
micha@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The problem is that I disagree with your next statement:
:> You don't want half-baked lomdus and people pasqening for themselves
:> from ignorance.

: no, you want them seeking a little more understanding each time (the
: guide by their side rather than the sage on the stage) and that's
their
: creativity

I disagree that that's "creativity". Posqim create; sho'alim follow.
Understanding someone else's pesaq isn't partnering with G-d in
creation, it's submitting to his superior knowledge/gestalt. Emunas
Chakhamim in a non-contraversial sense of the words -- trusting their
halakhic statements.

When the typical balebas thinks he can create his own pesaq in response
to his own encounter with the modern, what follows isn't quite shemiras
hamitzvos.

And this is why I'm asserting that there is no path from here to there
for the masses who will never develop that skill. There is a
disadvantage to being partway there until you reach that threshold. And
what results is compartmentalization and compromise.

I am also assering that of the derakhim that are currently popular,
RYBS's may be unique in having that trench in which being partway there
is worse than not trying.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
=============================

I think we'll agree to disagree but it seems that you are focusing on
psak while I'm focusing on the learning process. R" M Rosenzweig in his
shiur on dachei limud mentions the difference between psak (only
chachmei hamesora) and learning a sugya not lmaaseh as an area where one
can have greater freedom to innovate.  Anything else I say will be
repetitive of my prior post so I'll leave it at that.

KT
Joel Rich

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
micha@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 10:46:22AM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: I think we'll agree to disagree but it seems that you are focusing on
: psak while I'm focusing on the learning process....

I agree we're probably going to stop here, but I thought I should
explain why I wouldn't focus on the learning process:

1- Halakhic Man does not.

2- Learning the product of someone else's creativity isn't the same as
being creative. And being innovative in theoretical lomdus (something
that happens here on Avodah all the time) isn't helping one navigate
the twin peaks YU calls "Torah" and "Madda". It's bedavka about
creatively applying Torah to the world. (Which is the reason why
theoretical lomdus isn't the centerpiece of Halakhic Man.)

Aside from the fact that I think your point is slightly different than
the Rav's derekh:

If someone were to shift emphasis to creativity in learning, one is
detaching the creativity from vekivshuha, and would need a separate
reason to justify doing so in YU rather than moving down to Lakewood.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
micha@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

>> If a Jew works as a cashier for a supermarket and another Jew asks them
to ring up some bacon, saying it's for
breakfast, what's the halocho? <<

According to Sefer Binah VaDaas, the guidelines for this sort of thing are:

a) If the fellow can get the Issur on his own - comparable convenience and
comparable price - there is no LIfnei Iver and only potential Mesayei'a
MiDerabanan (or perhaps someting akin to Chizuk Y'dei Ovrei Aveirah)
according to some Rishonim, and a Baal Nefesh Yachmir (Rema YD 151:1).
There may be an additional  Kulla in a case where there is no Siyu'a at the
time of the Aveira itself. (See Shu"t Binyan Tzion 15, Ksav Sofer YD 83).

This is all if he can get the Issur from a non-Jew, but if the only other
option to buy it is from another Jew it reverts back to Lifnei Iver D'Oraysa
(based on Mishneh LaMelech Malveh V'loveh 4:2 and R' Aharon Kotler, your
Posek may differ, seems Ritva in Bava Metzia disagrees).

All of the above is talking about a direct seller-buyer transaction, maybe
someone can think of why a cashier is different - seems like it is still
some sort of Siyu'a, but I don't know.

I would think if there is a supermarket situation there are non-Jewish
cashiers, and if it is a Mom and Pop kind of grocery there are probably
others around, if it's the only one in Yehupitz and it will cost the guy
more time and/or money to get it elsewhere, it seems like a serious Shaalah.
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RGS writes  ... If a Jew works as a cashier for a supermarket and another
Jew asks them to ring up some bacon, saying it's for breakfast, what's the
halocho?

since they can buy it thru another cashier, it's only an issue of Misayei'a
(as you wrote) - not a d'orasisa

I assume one could rely on those that hold that there is no issur of
Misayei'a with non shomer shabbos (ayin shach)


a more difficult situation that once came up was where BY volunteers at the
local hospital/old age home were asked to help feed the residents. 
can they feed (ma'achil b'yadim) trief food to the Jewish residents?

(RS miller told me they cannot feed mamash trief)

Mordechai cohen

 From http://www.torah.org/learning/tefilah/lion.html


Like A Lion

"Arise like a lion to serve your Creator in the morning" (Shulchan Aruch 1,1).

Take a look at 
http://www.predatorconservation.com/video/lions_wakeup.htm 
It seems that lions do take their time getting up 
after they have been asleep. So, Kum k"Ari must 
not mean that one gets up very quickly!

I am sure that this is good news for all those 
who have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning. :-)

Isn't it wonderful how the secular world can give 
us insight into Torah! hooray for TIDE! >:-}

In fairness, the web 
site  http://www.torah.org/learning/tefilah/lion.html explains what this means:

As Jews, we are taught that if we have the 
mindset of a lion, we will successfully overcome 
the challenge of getting ourselves out of bed in 
the morning. What is the significance of this analogy?

Over two thousand years ago, our Sages recognized 
that the urge to worship idols was too powerful 
for the Jewish people to resist, and they prayed 
that it should be removed. Hashem complied and a 
fire-like lion ascended from the Holy of Holies. 
Our Sages captured this negative inclination 
(yeitzer hara), preventing it from having further influence (Yuma 69).

 From this Talmudic story, we see that this 
negative inclination takes the form of lion. 
Strategically speaking, if we want to defeat it, 
we must also act like lions. For this reason, the 
Shulchan Aruch advises us to start our day like a 
lion (ibid. Shaarei Teshuva 1,1).

Lions are unique in the animal kingdom in that 
they are the only beasts which fear nothing. Even 
an armed man, who is more dangerous than a lion, 
does not arouse fear in this majestic creature.

When confronting the yeitzer hara, we must employ 
similar tactics. Even though the negative 
inclination is stronger than man, we must fight 
it with all our might, turning to Hashem to aid 
us in this struggle and never fearing defeat. In 
this way, we will win the battle (Taz 1,1).

Waking up in the morning is the first battle of 
the day. Generally, as soon as the alarm clock 
rings, we immediately think of many reasons why 
we should stay in bed a few minutes longer. It is 
at that moment we must become lion-like, pushing 
away the cunning arguments of the negative 
inclination and escaping from his grip ? and from the lures of sleepiness.

Getting out of bed is our first challenge of the 
day. Modeh ani and the blessings of netilas 
yadayim, asher yatzar, and Elokai neshama, 
express our thanks to Hashem for aiding us to be victorious in this battle.


Yitzchok Levine
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Gershon Seif wrote:
> If a Jew works as a cashier for a supermarket and another Jew asks them
> to ring up some bacon, saying it's for breakfast, what's the halocho?

I'm not sure I understand the problem.  The customer took the product
from the shelf himself.  The cashier is not giving it to him, all he's
doing is making him pay for it.  I'm not sure how that's mesayea` to
the eventual act of eating it.  It's not true that the customer couldn't
eat it without paying; just as he's capable of eating treif he's also
capable of stealing.  That he doesn't want to steal is to his credit,
and by charging him the cashier helps him avoid the avera of stealing;
what's wrong with that?


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

RMC writes:

>>  I assume one could rely on those that hold that there is no issur of
Misayei'a with non shomer shabbos (ayin shach) <<

Considering the possibilty of Tinok Shenishba - this is one case where it
may be a Chumra, perhaps depending on what the Sevara for the Shach is. Even
if they aren't real Tinokos Shenishbu just Shogegim or Anusim it may be
different. See Igros Moshe YD I:52, Minchas Shlomo II:97 (5), and L'horos
Nosson III:23, that even according to the Shach there is a Mitzvah to be
Mafrish a Tinok Shenishba. (All from the Sefer Binah VaDaas chapter 19).



>> a more difficult situation that once came up was where BY volunteers at
the
local hospital/old age home were asked to help feed the residents.
can they feed (ma'achil b'yadim) trief food to the Jewish residents?

(RS miller told me they cannot feed mamash trief) <<

This also relates to the original question - what about feeding them
B'yadayim (or cashier in the original question) Kosher food when they aren't
making Berachos (and there is no Hachshalah in a worse Issur of Sinah a la
the Minchas Shlomo)?
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RET asks  ... Should a good orthodox ma/woman avoid being a policeman,
fireman or even doctor because these professions require occasional work on
Shabbat (though mutar) and because the professions lead to many questions

I must assume that you are referring to EY. 
In chul, I don't know why you refer to 'occasional work on Shabbat' as a
policeman/fireman as mutar.

Mordechai cohen




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