Avodah Mailing List

Volume 44: Number 28

Tue, 19 May 2026

• 1. Re: ALL 24000 died (Ben Bradley)
• 2. Re: ALL 24000 died (Ben Bradley)
• 3. Re: ALL 24000 died (Micha Berger)
• 4. To All Seeking Tzedakah: (Joel Rich)
• 5. Hashgacha (Joel Rich)

Stating historical theories about events reported in the gemara without
comparing all relevant data points in Chazal and then adding known external
historical dates is prone to be misleading.

This is a case in point.
First - the historical data points. The Bar Kochba revolt was from 132-135.
The Hadrianic persecutions lasted from the beginning of the revolt until
138 when Hadrian died.
Next, we can be sure that R Akiva died around the end or slightly after the
end of the Bar kochba revolt based of Chazal's reporting of the
circumstances around his death.
Now if all the students died during the Bar Kochba revolt, when could the
aged Rabbi Akiva, with a couple of years left to live, have 'gone south'
and raised more talmidim?
And in any case, we can be certain that the talmidim he is reported to have
raised - including Rashbi and R Meir, were already mature talmidei
chachamim by the time of the Bar Kochba revolt, they were certainly not
young and green. Two relevant data points to this end - firstly we know
that Rashbi was a young student at the time of Bo bayom, because the gemara
names him as the student who created the problem in the Beis midrash of
Kerem bYavneh by asking the question which pitted R Yehoshua against Raban
Gamliel. Bo Bayom can be dated to around the year 90 by identifying the
relative ages of the various protaganists at the time. That was 40 years
before Bar Kochba, so by no stretch of the imagination did Rashbi need
'raising up' around that time. Similarly, R Meir can not have been young
and green either in 132-135. Because Rebi was born around then as we can
see from his rough age at the writing of the Mishna about 60 years later.
And he saw the 'back of R Meir' in his youth. R Meir
  must have been mature a scholar by the time Rebi was a child.

So, with all respect to R Henkin, It is difficult to the point of
impossible to understand the theory that R Akiva's students died in the Bar
Kochba revolt if we assume the historical accuracy of his raising his 5
central talmidim afterwards. That may be an assumption, especially since
the likelihood of the numbers reported as dying and its cause being literal
see very low. R Sheria already hints strongly to that.

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Hadrian speant a lot of time suppressing us after the fall of
Beitar. The plowing of the Har haBayis didn't happen at the same time
as BK's Temple building project.

Beitar fell in the summer of 135 at the end of the BK revolt, historians
seem unanimous on that. And the Hadrianic decrees ceased with the death of
Hadrian in 138, only 3 years after Beitar fell. That also seems undisputed
by historians. So whichever way you look at it R Akiva, who certainly died
between the later stages of the BK revolt and the death of of Hadrian had
very little time to raise more talmidim if they died during the revolt.
And as I pointed out, the particular talmidim he is said to have raised
afterwards were mature adults by the BK revolt, there seems next to no
doubt about from what we know of their own biographies. So it's
exceptionally unlikely to the point of impossible that he took them as
students at that time.


 Sherira Gaon in the She'iltos
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14593&;pgnum=89> says "vehavei
shamda al talmidei RA", which has been argued is about shemad,
and thus Roman oppression. I know this is debated, but I don't recall
the other interpretation.

I referred to that too. R Sherira does not say which shmad. There was a
lesser discussed period of perscution from 115-117 just before the
beginning of Hadrian's reign, milchemes kitos, I wonder if the reference is
to that. Either way, it doesn't change the multiple problems I identified
with dating the death of R Akiva's students to the BK revolt. Again, I note
that no one tries to date their death until the 20th century as far as I'm
aware.


________________________________
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Sent: 10 May 2026 17:14
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Cc: Ben Bradley <bdbradle...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] ALL 24000 died

On Sat, May 09, 2026 at 08:32:21PM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
> Next, we can be sure that R Akiva died around the end or slightly
> after the end of the Bar kochba revolt based of Chazal's reporting of
> the circumstances around his death.

Hadrian speant a lot of time suppressing us after the fall of
Beitar. The plowing of the Har haBayis didn't happen at the same time
as BK's Temple building project.

So, maybe it was later. I don't see this argument compelling.

> So, with all respect to R Henkin...
has been argued is about shemad,
and thus Roman oppression. I know this is debated, but I don't recall
the other interpretation.

There are earlier sources:

R Sherira Gaon in the She'iltos
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14593&;pgnum=89> says "vehavei
shamda al talmidei RA", which
In the new Moznayim edition of Midrash Rabba, the Eitz Yoseif (on
Bereishis 61) says they died between Pesach and Shavuos in Milchemes
Beitar. That's early 19th cent, but most (not all) of EY is a
liqut.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger                 Today is the 38th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF         promote harmony in life and relationships?
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On Sat, May 09, 2026 at 08:32:21PM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
> Next, we can be sure that R Akiva died around the end or slightly
> after the end of the Bar kochba revolt based of Chazal's reporting of
> the circumstances around his death.

Hadrian speant a lot of time suppressing us after the fall of
Beitar. The plowing of the Har haBayis didn't happen at the same time
as BK's Temple building project.

So, maybe it was later. I don't see this argument compelling.

> So, with all respect to R Henkin...

There are earlier sources:

R Sherira Gaon in the She'iltos
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14593&;pgnum=89> says "vehavei
shamda al talmidei RA", which has been argued is about shemad,
and thus Roman oppression. I know this is debated, but I don't recall
the other interpretation.

In the new Moznayim edition of Midrash Rabba, the Eitz Yoseif (on
Bereishis 61) says they died between Pesach and Shavuos in Milchemes
Beitar. That's early 19th cent, but most (not all) of EY is a
liqut.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 38th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF         promote harmony in life and relationships?

Posted on the door at a US shul.

To All Seeking Tzedakah:
We are eager to help you!
In order to best do so, we ask that you please seek out Rabbi xxxxx  with
your Tzedakah needs. The Rabbi can also assist with procurement of a
tzedakah from the yyyyyyyyy Tzedakah Committee. We unfortunately cannot
allow any solicitation of Tzedakah from our members inside the shul
building. We kindly ask for your compliance with this policy. (Our security
team will be tasked with enforcement.) May Hashem bless you with health,
sustenance, and good tidings, together with the entire Jewish People.
Rabbi xxxxxxxx

Me- 1. I note the phrase ?We unfortunately cannot allow any solicitation?.
What force is ?unfortunately? keeping ?them? from allowing the
solicitation?  2. The ?tuvei hair? have broad authority, but is a complete
ban appropriate  halachically and/or hashkafical
KT
Joel Rich
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On ?second day? yom tov in chul someone said to me I must be sleeping
better here than at home (Yerushalayim). I responded ?no, I sleep better in
Yerushalayim where I know HKBH exercises direct hashgacha over his people.
Are there halachic implications of this direct hashgacha?
kt
joel rich
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