Avodah Mailing List

Volume 01 : Number 034

Tuesday, September 1 1998

• Re: Avodah V1 #32
• Re: The Mishnah B'rurah and Ba'al Nefesh Yachmir
• RE: minhag and Halakhah
• RE: Abarbanel
• How to implement our mission
• Roshei Yashiva and Chassideshe Rebbes
• Re: Zmanim
• Re: Roshei Yashiva and Chassideshe Rebbes
• Re: minhagim
• Re: minhagim

SHalom,
I'm getting a good bit of garbled stuff, like this:

znG4UI7viU9bJ1viEkOzs//iESvD0qFO8C2g2+OpUuZ2/5N8V9yST4FTxwIPQshBwMH/O7PbQLVw

w+C0FA5x3DIucP+3wY6QD4Ez8bFzn7EkUBCi/7Og0MCvkS/hO8APo9pwFKTvVlRHgPkBs6B059O6


also, I have seen innumerable references to Juno .

etc. 

COuld you take the trouble to edit the letters better?
Thank you,
Elie

In v1n33, R' YGB <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> writes:
: > I'm not sure I'd read this the same way you would. (He says, without having
: > accessed the quote.)
: 
: I am well aware of R' Chaim V's definition of nefesh in the Nefesh
: HaChaim, but the reality is that here in the Ru'ach Chaim he says what he
: says!

Actually, the conclusion is the same -- that a ba'al nefesh is one who masters
his ta'avos gashmios. The question I asked is whether he means it by saying
that he is one who is oseik b'nefesh as opposed to those ta'avos, or one who
is a ba'al, a master over the nefesh, which is the seat of those ta'avos.

We also find that among a number of writers about Nara"n (in particular, the
Gaon and the Maharal), that although they may use "nefesh", "ru'ach" and
"neshamah" in the particular sense when discussing this particular topic, they
often use the words in the more colloquial, interchangable, way in other
places. Perhaps here too.

:> I'm not sure why you'd say this, as this would imply that the Chafeitz Chaim
:> would be willing to risk the neshamos of people who don't consider themselves
:> ba'alei nefesh. If he really felt like R BZAS, he'd /require/ the more chamur
:> position.

: I read that he really wants people to be ba'alei nefesh, he just knows he
: cannot compel such behavior.

Except that you wrote that the CC believed that a wrong p'sak is neshamah
threatening! In which case, worrying about the more stringent possibility
isn't just good for the ba'al nefesh, it should be mandatory for anyone who
wants to avoid gehennom.

The expression "ba'al nefesh yachmir" sounds to my ear like "lifnim mishuras
hadin", and not "perhaps shuras hadin is here, not there".

However, this conversation has artificial limits. You can't divorce it from
the whole "is following a faulty p'sak (assuming the R' BZAS, that such a
thing exists) a form of 'mis'asek'", and my earlier question about whether
halachah idealizes correct behavior, or behavior that you made all reasonable
attempts to insure is correct. (But do we really want to discuss my opinion of
recently checked mezuzas again?) Why the latter? Because I'd argue that
mis'asek is muttar -- fully within what Hashem wants you to do, and not just
patur.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5908 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 31-Aug-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

Chana Luntz <heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> asks about the difference
between minhag and halakhah:

>Take =
>a classic example - Sephardim follow the Mechaber, while Ashzenazim =
>follow the Rema - is this halacha or minhag?  Now one would assume that =
>it is minhag, but it also deals with questions of halacha. Kitnios on =
>pesach is clearly minhag, the gezera made by Ashkenazim rabbonim just =
>never extended to Sephardim.  But how about more basic halachic issues? =
>What do you do when the two clash?

The categories of minhag and halakhah definitely overlap in various
ways, but one can (and should) recognize certain basic distinctions in
the use of the word minhag.

Minhag is often the source of a practice.  To mention just a few of
these relating to Elul and this onat teshuvah: the recitation of
Le-David Hashem, selihot, tashlikh and kapparot.  None of these are
halakhic in origin.  Similarly, virtually everything that we do in
relation to the observance of avelut is really minhag.  (One reason I
find amusing the title of a recent publication, "Mourning in Halacha.")
Not only are these minhagim not halakhic in origin, they sometimes were
thought to violate Halakha.  Thus, some posekim tried to ban the
practice of kapparot because it fell into the category of darkei
ha-Emori.

A different kind of minhag is the minhag to follow a certain halakhic
opinion or tradition.  This is well illustrated by Chana in her
discussion of the issue of an Ashkenazic woman who marries a Sephardic
man (or vice versa).  As Chana points out, the Ashkenazic minhag is to
follow Rema, while the Sephardim generally follow the Mehaber.

More complicated is the question of changing one's minhag, which is, of
course, a halakhic issue dating back to the Mishnah.

Interestingly, I think we are today witnessing a process by which many
centuries old differences in this area are fading.  More and more, a
dominant halakhic practice is taking over, and the ability of individual
edot to follow a different halakhic opinion is diminishing.  One reason
is demographic -- the intermixing of populations, inter-edah marriage
(such as Chana describes), often force a minority halakhic tradition to
yield to that of the majority.  [This phenomen is not new -- after the
expulsion from Spain, Italian Jewish communities were flooded with
refugees who brought with them different minhagim (of both categories),
forcing posekim to resolve the resulting tensions and conflicts.]  The
exception today is communities who continue to live apart -- such as the
Syrians and certain Hasidic groups.  Another reason is technological --
telecommunications, inexpensive publications, even forums such as this
one, are fostering a sharing of information allowing for mutual
influence which did not exist years ago.

Thus, posekim from different edot are much more likely today to quote
and discuss the view of posekim from other edot.  Note, for example, the
frequency with which the teshuvot of R. Ovadyah Yosef cite Ashkenazic
posekim or the Tzitz Eliezer cites R. Ovadyah and other Sephardim.

Of course there is a difference between citation and capitulation.  R.
Nissim, who was the Rishon leTziyyon in Eretz Yisrael during the 1950's
(?), often accepted the Ashkenazic pesak on many issues.  A generation
later, R. Ovadyah repudiated that approach in teshuvah after teshuvah,
proudly reasserting the Separdic halakhic tradition in the face of
Ashkenazic encroachment.

Perhaps the most interesting modern halakhic issue relating to minhag is
the ba'al teshuvah who does not know what his family's minhagim were.
Which tradition should he or she follow?  Does it matter where the
person lives or who the person marries?  Can the person pick and choose,
following Ashkenazic practice on one issue and Sephardic practice on
another?  Is the answer different for minhagim which are not halakhic in
origin?

Kol tuv,

Eli

Elie Ginsparg writes:

>Once again my kaanaos is being tested. How do we dare write "That
>politician"---what do we mean by that, how are we describing an early
>Achron--even maybe a late rishon who had a greater knowledge of Torah
>than we can even imagine.

I agree with Elie.  I myself have written words which unintentionally
were interpreted as disrespectful of a rishon and have tried to learn
from my error.  Don Yitzhak Abarbanel (generally considered to be a
Rishon, I think) was much more than a "politician."  His perushim on
tanakh, avot, moreh nevukhim, and more demonstrate an impressive
intellect with a firm grounding in the mesorah, as well as Greek
philosophy, Latin oratory, science and astronomy.  He used his influence
with nobles and kings for the benefit of the Jewish community and
voluntarily joined in the exile when he was unable to prevent the
expulsion in 1492.  His words are a light to our feet and his example is
one we should all try to emulate.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

Thanks to the fact that our web server now also hosts Bais Tefila, WebShas,
and HaMakor (a mar'eh mikomos exchange run by R' Mordechai Torczyner of
WebShas fame -- released to the world mere seconds ago), as well as this
list, The AishDas Society has been attracting, ba"h, a lot more attention.

The problem is, though, The AishDas Society as it exists today is a handful of
people committed to the idea that halachah and hashkafah have to coexist as a
single whole. (See http://www.aishdas.org/charter.shtml where I put far more
thought into how to phrase the idea. I can send you a copy if you email me
off-list for one.)

What can we offer people who want to join? To put it another way, what
services could we, or ought we, provide frum people looking for a forum in
which they can find intellectual and emotional connection to observing
halachah?

Clearly, without a Besh"t or R' Yisroel Salanter we're not talking about
presenting a single pre-cut answer. Nor do we want to. The idea is for people
to explore the derech that best suits them, to promote the notion that one
ought search for meaning, and not just follow halachah out of habit or
upbringing. (FFH: Frum From Habit)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5908 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 31-Aug-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

The phenomenon of Roshei Yeshiva taking on many aspects of a Chassidic
Rebbe is recent and can not be explained simply by showing similarities
between Musar and Chassidus.  In Slabodka, the primary Mussar yeshiva in
the world of Litvishe yeshivos, the Roshei Yeshiva did not play that
role.  When I was a yeshiva student, in the 1950's and early sixties,
the only Rosh Yeshiva who had control over his talmidim's private life
was Rav Hutner Z.T.L. who had a Chassidic packground as well as a
litvishe education.
It is not clear that the doctrine of Daas Torah which posits that
Talmidei Chachamim have special insight even in non-halchic matters,
which is relevant in the communal leadership sphere, need be translated
as to deciding private personal matters for others.  In certain ways in
some Yeshivos, Roshei Yeshiva are going beyond the Chassidishe Rebbes
who gave all kinds of advice to their Chassidim but only when asked.  A
new trend of telling boys what to do or where to learn even when not
asked reflects a sense of control by Rebbe over talmid that should
require justification.
Perhaps my being taught by my own Rebbeim that bechira chofshis is
fundamental to yahadus and that taking responsibility for my own
decisions its logical implication makes me uncomfortable with this
trend. I do work in a yeshiva and have students who come for advice but
they expect me to help them clarify the issues and then make up their
own minds.
Sincerely,
(Rabbi) Yosef Blau

I will stick my neck out between the huge mountains and hope that my head
doesn't get crushed too badly.

Several years ago I decided to immerse myself in the subject of Bein
Hashemashos once again after having done so in my teen years (many, many
years ago). I would like to first lay out a small but essential
bibliography in this area for those who desire to do deep fundamental
research in this area.

The starting point is the Gemara Pesaxim 93b (mishna) to the middle of
94a. The Gemara with the mefarshim is very tricky and I have seen many
incorrect interpretations. The GRA gives a very good explanation in the
Biur HaGRA on OH.

The next stop is Shabbos 34b (top) to 35b (bottom). This Gemara is also
extremely difficult to understand for various reasons including simple
geography (besides the astronomy). The view of the R' Tam is also subject
to two different girsas.

The next essential Gemara is Berakhos 2a to 3a (top). There are so many
opinions listed here as well as variant girsas hagaonim that it becomes
difficult to untangle without very great effort.

The Yerushalmi at the beginning of Berakhos has much to say on this
subject. Even with all of the mefarshim on the Yerushalmi there are
pieces that I haven't found clearly explained. When one tries to
integrate the opinions listed here with all the opinions listed in Bavli
(especially chronologically) it can become mindboggling.

To these must be added the Gemara in Megillah 20b as well as Yevamos 74b.

The first very comprehensive effort to put all of this together was by
the Minxas Kohen in a sefer he called "Mevo HaShemesh" (first printed
1668) where he devotes 64 pages to this task! Truly monumental and
essential studying.

In recent years there were many monumental works that were written on
this subject. I particularly liked the sefer Shraga LeChaim within the
sefer "Yisroel Vehazmanim" by Yisroel David Harfenes (Rov in
Williamsburg) - 84 pages. There is the sefer Ohr Meir by Meir Pozna of
London and many others. 

As a very concise summary there is "Jewish Chrononomy" by Leo Levi
(mentioned by Rabbi Bechhofer).


When I started on this road and saw the Igros Moshe I was totally
bewildered by what he says. When I finished I couldn't believe that a
person could be so brilliant and have such mastery over Shas.

It is hard to know where to start and be concise within a brief posting.
Many of the details are buried in my personal notes and explanations of
all the above Gemaras. I have forgotten many details over time but have
them all in my notes.

Very Brief Integration Of The Various Gemaras (my understanding):
1. The Torah says "Vayehi Erev vayehi voqer yom exad" - it does NOT say
"laylah"
2. I think that most people are familiar with the statement of the GRA
that night is a "Briah" and not simply the absence of light.
3. I think that most people are familiar with the Pirqei D'R Eliezer that
during the first Shabbos in Gan Eden it never became dark.
4. It is a curious fact that the disputes that occur for the evening
about when night starts are not equivalent to the disputes in the morning
about when daytime starts. There is noone who holds that night only ends
18 minutes before sunrise.

When these and other such details are brought together we come to the
conclusion brought down by Levi in his "Jewish Chrononomy" page 28 of the
Hebrew section. He brings it down from R' IZ Meltzer and others but I
also saw that it's already in the Minxas Kohen that there are two
separate issues here. There is the issue of transitioning from day to
night to day. There is a second and separate issue of transitioning from
one day to the next i.e. Sunday to Monday ... Friday to Shabbos. The two
have separate criteria.

The Gemara in Pesaxim is discussing the transition from day to night to
day. The Gemara in Shabbos is discussing the issue of transitioning from
day to day. The Gemara in Berakhos is trying to figure out where Teruma
belongs - is it dependent on day to night transitions or day to day
transitions.

The devil of course is in the details.

What the Minxas Kohen says and that seems to me to be also what the Igros
Moshe held is that the Rabbeinu Tam's answer is precisely this point.
There are two different sun settings. One applies to day-to-night
transitions and that is the subject of the Gemara in Pesaxim. The other
setting is the subject in Shabbos and applies to day-to-day
transitioning. However, while the day to night transitions are fixed in
duration and set by a certain number of mils (and is when the CREATION
called night starts) the transition from day to day depends on the
relative motion of the sun with respect to the observer and varies from
place to place and can occur even with NO darkness per se (as was the
case with the first Shabbos). The night to day transition is governed by
the disputes of day to night transitioning and not the day to day
transitioning.

I do not know of any other way to adequately explain the sugya in
Berakhos.

Rabbi Yisroel Reisman has a very nice tape on this subject.

_____________________________________________________________________
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In a message dated 98-08-31 18:16:17 EDT, you write:

<< 
 It is not clear that the doctrine of Daas Torah which posits that
 Talmidei Chachamim have special insight even in non-halchic matters,
 which is relevant in the communal leadership sphere, need be translated
 as to deciding private personal matters for others.  In certain ways in
 some Yeshivos, Roshei Yeshiva are going beyond the Chassidishe Rebbes
 who gave all kinds of advice to their Chassidim but only when asked.  A
 new trend of telling boys what to do or where to learn even when not
 asked reflects a sense of control by Rebbe over talmid that should
 require justification.
 Perhaps my being taught by my own Rebbeim that bechira chofshis is
 fundamental to yahadus and that taking responsibility for my own
 decisions its logical implication makes me uncomfortable with this
 trend. I do work in a yeshiva and have students who come for advice but
 they expect me to help them clarify the issues and then make up their
 own minds.
 Sincerely,
 (Rabbi) Yosef Blau >>

Perhaps it also occurs because talmidim would rather not have to deal with the
myriad of complex decisions that life forces on us but would rather substitute
one act of bchira chafsheet(choosing a rebbe). It's not my mesora but....

kol tuv and ktiva vchatima tova
Joel Rich

Just to add a few other examples---If one stands or sits for kidush would
seem to be minhag but whether my family is machmir on yoshon or cholev
yisroel would seem to be more towards psak but since there are legitimate
hetarim for these does this still fall under minhag, If my family minhag
is to eat one bite of a matzah (less then a kzais according to all
opinions) and I want to eat a full kzais that would seem to be completely
psak---the question as I see it is where are the guidelines between what
is proper to be more observant then ones predesesors and when is it proper
to say that this the minhag so we do it that way. If my family minhag is
to wait 50 minutes and I want to wait 72 or vice versa  is this in the
realm of not changing from a family minhag or can this be a legitimate
choice to try to be a better oved Hashem. It would be interesting to hear
if any one have specific examples in which they were given hadracha by
qualified poskim
Elie Ginsparg

If you look up the tshuvah of R' Ovadya Yosef (II:7) he cites a tshuvah of
the Chikrei Lev , which I'll paraphrase.  Minhag cannot be used to decide
an issue about which there exists a machloket haposkim.  We today have lost
our ability to be machriya on such a machloket and must rely on rov (I
assume he means rely on 'klalei hora'ah', not exclusively rov).  However,
if it is a very old minhag then we can rely on it even as a hachra'ah.

Two examples (of my own): Since 50 vs. 72 minutes or a heter for chalav
stam is a function of psak and hachra'ah, it would be meaningless for
example to say that if I grew up in Passaic where a 50 minute shiur is kept
or went to a school where they served chalav Yisrael only I am bound to
that psak.  For generations Sefardic Jews have eaten kitniyot; it would be
meaningless for a sefardi jew to choose to be machmir like Ashkenazim who
don't eat kitniyot bec. the minhag sefarad has been machriya on this long
ago.  If the Rama writes to sit for kiddush, even if there be poskim who
disagree, we interpret the generations of Ashkenazim who chose to follow
the Rama as a hachra'ah.

Just derech agav - Chazal refer constantly to minhag hamakom.  What is the
basis for a family minhag?

-CB


                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           



          Please respond to avodah@aishdas.org

          To:   avodah @ aishdas.org
          cc:
          Subject:  Re: minhagim




Just to add a few other examples---If one stands or sits for kidush would
seem to be minhag but whether my family is machmir on yoshon or cholev
yisroel would seem to be more towards psak but since there are legitimate
          hetarim for these does this still fall under minhag, If my family
          minhag
is to eat one bite of a matzah (less then a kzais according to all
opinions) and I want to eat a full kzais that would seem to be completely
          psak---the question as I see it is where are the guidelines between
          what
          is proper to be more observant then ones predesesors and when is it
          proper
          to say that this the minhag so we do it that way. If my family minhag
          is
to wait 50 minutes and I want to wait 72 or vice versa  is this in the
realm of not changing from a family minhag or can this be a legitimate
choice to try to be a better oved Hashem. It would be interesting to hear
if any one have specific examples in which they were given hadracha by
          qualified poskim
          Elie Ginsparg

********************


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