Avodah Mailing List

Volume 01 : Number 036

Wednesday, September 2 1998

• Dr. Nosson Birnbaum text
• The Chumraization of America (and other countries)
• Mission for Aishdas Society
• RE: Nida Program (and Juno)
• Nida Program
• Re: Avodah V1 #34-Abarbanel
• Re: Women and Psak/Serara
• Authority:Women & Gerim
• Re: Avodah V1 #35
• FW: Eli Cohen - humanitarian duty
• Bicheera/choice
• Re: Bicheera/choice
• Minhag

Sorry to take up so much bandwith! Hope, in any event, that it proves
somewhat interesting.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Kol-Koreh (Free Translation)

     "And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a sacred nation." 
G-d commanded Israel to sanctify itself and raise up that sanctity as an
example and a banner. This is the task of the Jewish nation. It has not
yet completed this task. It is still distant from the pathway that leads
to this sanctity. It is still far from true awareness and service of
Hashem; far from compassion and extra care in matters bein adam
l'chaveiro; far from arranging itself in a modest way amid the world's
grandeur, a way that would reflect the majesty of G-d Himself. Even worse,
a part of the level that the nation had already achieved has eroded. Our
bein adam laMakom is frigid and has become flippant; our bein adam
l'chaveiro has become artificial or political. Our lives are either
patterned after foreign, empty ideals, or bereft of all esthetics and
order, not sacred unto Hashem. 
     Will this decline continue? Is it permissible to gaze with equanimity
on this destruction? Has the time not come to turn the evil back? Hasn't
the moment arrived for Am Yisroel to strive for that ascent for which it
was chosen? Who [but us] is responsible for fortifying themselves and
calling out to Yisroel: Become more than you presently are! Be more than
true to Hashem and His Torah. Take on the mighty responsibility for the
life force of the Jewish nation! 
     One thing gives us hope, the fact that Charedim have recently
organized themselves and become productive.  Through these efforts they
have gained much in distinction, in confidence and in the quest to act.
This gives us hope, that soon they will come to realize their capacity for
the greatest task of all. 
     To fulfill this hope, the undersigned committee has decided to found

                      The Society of Olim

Based on the ideas expressed by Dr. Nathan Birnbaum in his book "In the
Work of Promise." 
     This society, as part of the framework of Agudas Yisroel, will not be
a political party or entity aspiring to rally masses under its flag. It
will not compete with independent Orthodox organizations. On the contrary
- it yearns to be an army of pioneers upon which others can rely. 
     The purpose of the society is: To promote the idea that Agudas
Yisroel must create the necessary conditions to refine the entire Jewish
nation... Then, under the leadership of the Rabbonim of the Mo'etzes
Gedolei HaTorah, the nation will be enhanced. It will become a true
"Kenesses Yisroel," one that embraces the entire nation of an Israel that
is chared l'dvar Hashem with strong and tight knit bonds, as opposed to
the state of anarchy that currently reigns. 
     Before all else, however, the society must ensure that it itself will
be an example and role model. Not just in a return to agriculture (in that
it will found a model colony now, and, subsequently, various colonies in
Eretz Yisroel and other lands). Primarily, rather, by proving that courage
of spirit and self education will have enabled the society to achieve
significant ascent despite the current less than ideal situation. The
society is obliged to build groups of those who yearn for sanctity within
the body of Am Yisroel. 
     To attain its goal the society will use special techniques and
regulations whose fundamentals have already been formulated, but whose
details must still be resolved. With no shred of politics the society will
educate all those who accompany it: 
	To the capacity to withstand the modern rebellions against both
Emuna in Hashem and Mesorah and against the laws of Tzeniyus and Kavod
Chachomim. 
	To strengthened Emuna and diligent Torah study. 
	To imbue their hearts with true love and awareness of Hashem. 
	To habituate themselves to the midda of Rachamim: empathy,
assistance and good will in matters bein adam l'chaveiro.
	To arouse themselves to thoughts of Kiddush Hashem and to pattern
their public lives in a splendid and majestic authentic Jewish manner. 
     Anyone who yearns to see Yisroel ascend to its proper level as a
nation of destiny and example, and knows that he has the capacity to toil
with his entire personality for the benefit of this purpose - should come
and identify himself to us! 
     We must mention an individual that to our sorrow has already passed
from among us: Rabbi Avrohom Eliyahu Kaplan z"l was among those who began
to gather under the idea of "Ha'Olim." He signed this Kol Koreh some years
ago. Were he still alive, he certainly would have had his name signed on
the Kol Koreh as it is now being publicized. He surely would have
participated and helped us now in our work. 
     Friends who want to support our ambitions in some specific area, even
if they do not wish to enter the "society" - are of interest to us. 

We will eagerly provide more information to anyone corresponding to the
address of:  Samuel Ostersetzer, Duisburg (Germany) Charlottenstrasse 62. 
From Poland and throughout Eastern Europe, to the address of:  Advocate
Dr. Ben-Zion Fessler, Kolomea (Poland) Sobieckiego 8. 

In the month of Kislev 5688:
 Rabbi Dr. Elie Munk, Ansbach
 Mordechai Knoblewitsch, Dortmund
 Samuel Ostersetzer, Duisburg
 Lawyer Isaac Rosenheim, Frankfurt
 Dr. Gershon Schnerb, Frankfurt.
 Dr. Solomon Birnbaum, Hamburg
 Wolf S. Jacobson, Hamburg
 Moshe Elzas, Kassel
 David Ullmann, Kassel
 Dr. Ben-Zion Fessler, Kolomea
 Henry van Leeuwen, Rotterdam
 Rabbi Tuvia Horowitz, Rzeszow
 Binyomin Mintz, Tel Aviv
 Dr. Leo Deutschlander, Vienna
 Alfred Stroh, Vienna
 Yehuda Leib Orlean, Warsaw

It has ben awhile since I've contributed to the list.  Mostly, because 
the respondants on this list are so thorough in their responses on the 
various issues that it leaves me with virtually nothing to add that 
hasn't already been said. 

I have been following the issue of "Baal Nefesh Yachmir". The discussion 
seems to revolve around what the Chafetz Chaim's intent was with that 
statement, and the preponderance of opinion expressed seems to indicate 
that eventhough we are on safe ground to be makil in certain halachos 
since rov poskim are makil, still we should be choshesh for Daas 
HaMachmirim, because: What if they are right?!  We don't wan't to take 
the chance of suffering the fires of gehinom if we can avoid it. This 
seems like a prudent and wise course of action towards entering the 
air-condtioned portion of Olam Habah. (as one poster put it.) The 
question then arises: Why not just follow every chumra in the book?  
Wouldn't the afterlife be wonderful then?  Of course it would.  The 
problem is the life in the here and now might be just a tad overbearing. 

Yet this is what seems to be an overwhelming trend in the frum world.  
When in doubt,  Chumra-ize! Bal Nefesh Yachmir teaches us, from the 
book, that in order to achieve the highest level of control over ones 
soul, Be Machmir. The very statement "Bal Nefesh Yachmir" implies that 
this is a higher form of Avodas HaShem. What "bal nefesh" can resist the 
call.  Isn't this how we are indoctrinted in the yeshivos from day 
one(kindergarden)?

Because of these thoughts as discussed on this list I have come to the 
realization that the phrase "Bal Nefesh Yachmir" is one of the main 
forces in the chumraization process presently taking place.  And the 
push of the previous generation of Gedolim to make the MB THE definitive 
book of Halacha for the modern era has gone a long way towards 
acheivinmg that goal.

Is it possible, as another poster suggested, that the idea of being 
choshsesh for the daas HaMachmir (as the term Bal nefesh Yachmir 
suggests)is not the correct approach to dealing with differing opinions 
in halacha,and the correct approach is to treat it as and Elu VeElu 
Divrei Elokim Chaim? I am not a baki beShas but I don't recall ever 
seeing a machlokes in the Gemmorah that was followed by "VeHaBaal Nefesh 
Yachmir".(I'm sure I can be corrected on this.)  On the contrary.  When 
a Tana paskin'd in his own community a halacha that was against the 
predominent view of fellow Tannaim, clearly the members of his community 
were forbidden to do otherwise.  Even when the psak was a Kula!  This 
flies in the face of Bal Nefesh Yachmir! It seems that getting into 
heaven isn't as simple as just following the Chumra. The idea expressed 
by some on the list that a posek who paskins wrong, eventhough he was as 
scrupulous as he could be and had great yiras shomyim, could still, 
suffer the fires of Gehinom for paskining incorrectly. I don't think it 
is possible for such a person (e.g. R. Moshe Feinstien) to paskin 
incorrectly, eventhough he might be "out voted"by other poskim.  Torah, 
Lo BaShomayim he, as the famous case of the bas kol by Tanur Achnai 
illustrates. When, for example, a R. Moshe paskins lekula and a Chazon 
Ish paskins lechumra, it doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong.  It 
means that they have both been diligent in there analysis of a problem 
and, based on their vast knowledge of Torah, have come to different 
conclusions.  So, If one is makil based on the shita of the makil he 
need not worry about the fires of Gehinom because Elu ve Elu, divrei 
Elokim Chaim.

HM

Now that I have burdened everyone with excessive verbiage, let me note
that, of course, the Avodah list, in my opinion, should qlways remain a
function of the Aishdas society, but not a part thereof, i.e., one may
participate in Avodah to a great or small extent quite independently of
Aishdas, perhaps not even knowing that there is an Aishdas Society behind
the Avodah List.

But, I think that there is an urgent need to debate and delineate the
values that we believe should underlie the "Avodas Hashem" of society; how
we can assimilate and stress those values; what goals are results of those
values; how we can eschew values that general society may hold dear but
are inimical to our growth and elevation; how we can emphasize and educate
to the need for constant assessment and reckoning of our successes and
failures in these areas; and, what uniform activity those who are the
"elite" of that society might undertake in unison.

Ultimately, that can only be a beginning. Our Orthodox society is light
years better than general society, but, nevertheless, flawed. Our focus
should be on Am Yisroel as a community (or, at least, whatever portion we
can deal with) and its elevation - socially, culturally and spiritually.

I've said far more than enough for one day, and I apologize to those who I
have bored!

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Avi Pechman wrote <<< I don't think the type of question has any bearing
on shrara; it's the fact that one is in a position of authority. I
believe R. Moshe Feinstein disallowed women from being shul presidents,
even though there's no psak involved. My question is - if we
institutionalize women issuing psak (which is R. Henken's plan, if I
understand it correctly), do we run into a problem of having women in
positions of authority (irregardless of the accuracy of the psak)? >>>

For more information on how R. Moshe might have viewed this issue, I
suggest learning the Igros Moshe, YD 2, simanim 44 and 45, where he
discusses whether a woman can be employed as a mashgiach for kashrus.
It's NOT a simple matter.

Some have asked about Juno. Juno is a free e-mail service which works
over a regular modem; one does not need Internet access to use it. In
truth, there is no free lunch, and Juno users must endure a fair number
of advertisements while using the program. (I personally find the ads to
be a very small price compared the the many benefits of using email.)
Another cost of using the service is the taglines which are attached to
every piece of email sent by Juno subscribers. There is no way I can
prevent it from appearing. I have gotten the impression that Micha does
not do any editing of the posts, rather the listserv program assembles
and mails each issue of Avodah automatically. And I do not want to impose
upon his time to edit the posts further. Avodah is a beautiful and easy
to read publication now; there were a few kinks in the beginning, but
they seem to have gotten ironed out nicely.

I'll admit that the taglines at the end of my posts are a nuisance, but
it is only 3 lines. Sorry.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

The Chinuch on Mitzva 152 the prohibition on a Cohen entering the
mikdash having drunk wine and the the prohibition on a scholar issuing a
Horaah having drunk wine includes wise women who know how to make a
Horaah in the latter prohibition. In a clear contrast in his discussion
of the prohibition on a Beis Din to issue a death verdict on Shabbos
(Mitzva 114) the Chinuch restricts the prohibition to men.  He makes a
distinction between Horaah, which would include a Nida question, and Din
which requires a Beis Din.
(Rabbi) Yosef Blau

I would just like to add regarding the  Abarbanel that the Rama in Yoreh Deah
245,8 and 246, 21 quotes him him from his peirush to Avos, Nachalas Avos.

The consensus of poskim is that women can pasken she'elot in halakha and
there is no issue of Serara:
	See Hinukh mitzvah 77 (Devorah) and 152 (a woman is prohibited to drink
wine before she paskens.
	Birkei Yosef, HM siman 7, ot 12 (based on Devorah)
	Resp. Binyan Av (Rav Eliyahu Bakshi Doron) I, sec. 65.

Besides there shouldn't be any problem of Psak if it's voluntarily
accepted (Kiblu alayhu). Serara requires discressionary powers. This
would apply to a communal Rabbi or Dayan. But not a poseket asked a
shaila voluntarily who has no power to enforce the kiyum of her psak.

I had posted this to another list. It summarizes the major issues

       Rav Moshe's psak permitting a woman to be a moshgiach was under
the assumption that she would be working for someone else who would have
the
actual authority to enforce the halacha. See Igros Moshe (YorehDeah II
44 page 60). He says (Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah II, 45 page 63) that the
appointment of a woman to a position other than that of king is a
dispute among the rishonim. He says it is appropriate to be strict and
follow the position of the Rambam not to appoint her. However, in a case
of great need it might be possible to rely on those who permit it. Rav
Moshe suggested, however, making the woman an employee of someone else
in order for her to be a moshgiach according to all opinions. "Therefore
in a case of great need for the sustaining of the widow and her children
it is relevant to rely on those who disagree with the Rambam as in all
disputes of our Rabbis however I have found a way to fulfill the words
of the Rambam and therefore it is required to follow this way since
there is no longer a need to rely on the dissenting opinions."

2) The issue of gerim revolves around this issue of srarah [authority]
which is not clearly defined. The basic problem revolves around the
acceptance of the Rambam's position which is all encompassing in
rejecting the ablity of a ger to be in a position of authority

        There is a good review article by Rabbi Bakshi Doron (page 66-72
published by Mosad Rav Kook of the 20th Kinus for Torah SheBal Peh
1979).

The following are some of his points:

        The Rambam states "A king is not appointed from gerim...unless
his mother is Jewish...And not only a king but any position of srarah
(authority) not a general of the army, not a leader of 50 or 10 even the
supervisor of a pond of water. And surely [not] a judge or political
leader...

        The gemora Kedushin 76b states that a Ger can not be appointed
to any position of authority. The gemora Yevamos 102 states also that a
Ger can not be a judge except for the case of another Ger but not for a
person
whose mother is Jewish. The rishonim point out that this exclusion of a
Ger from being a Judge apparently contradicts the gemora Sanhedrin 36b
which specifically says that a Ger can be a judge.

        One resolution is that a Ger can judge as long as it doesn't
involve imposing his views against the wishes of the litigants. This is
the
accepted view. Therefore if he is accepted because of his expertise
rather than his status there is no problem. There is the further
question if the community accepts the Ger as a judge even if the
specific litigants have not accepted him. This is possibly related to
the fact that Shmaya and Avtalyon were the heads of the Sanhedrin even
though they were Gerim (according to most opinions). Some say that a Ger
can be appointed to authority if there is no one superior.


3) Rav Moshe Sternbuch in Volume III #305 addresses the question of a
Ger being a Rav or to be a Magid Shiur.
         He says that there is no problem for him to say a shiur in
yeshiva (being a Rosh Yeshiva is problematic). However as far as being a
rav he says it is appropriate not to take a Ger as a Rav if there is
another
person who is just as qualified. This is related to the point that today
the status of Rav is considered an inherited position and is thus
similar to that of king. A Ger however can be the community posek and
even be called Moreh Tzedek since this is not a position of central
authority and honor.

4) Rav Moshe Feinstein in the new volume (Yoreh Deah IV #26 page 213)
addresses the question of appointing a Ger as Rosh Yeshiva or Mashgiach.
        He states that it is prohibited to appoint a Ger to any position
of authority. As far as Shmaya and Avtalyon he notes they were so
superior
to everyone else it can be viewed perhaps as an emergency measure for
that specific time they were head of the Sanhedrin and therefore we can
not learn from their status.

        As far as being a Rosh Yeshiva or Magid Shiur or Mashgiach they
should not be viewed as positions as authority but rather as services to
willing students. Whatever power they have is not viewed as Serarah and
is therefore permitted. He specifically says this is not comparable to
his psak concerning appointing a woman as mashgiach (which he says is
genuine Serarah).

In sum, If one follows the position of the Rambam - any position of
dominion over others is prohibited for a Ger. If there is voluntary
acceptance of the authority by the involved litigants there is no
problem according to most authorities. Being accepted by the community
is problematic especially if there are non gerim who are equally
qualified. In certain cases it might be  be permitted. Finally, if the
job is viewed as being an employee rather than a leader than there is
also a clear basis for being lenient.


                        Daniel Eidensohn

Shalom,
Could you please edit the letters that refer to the same posting, so that
we don't have to see numerous repeats of the same thing? The >> sign is not
enough.
In summary, try to make this Avodah as easy as possible to read. It would
be a hidur mitzva of the chesed of providing the list.
Thank you,
Elie

I am forwarding this to the avodah list.

>>
>>
>> Dear Friend,
>>
>> On May 18, 1965 my brother Eli Cohen was hanged in Syria, despite the
>> protestations of the international community, for being an Israeli
>> spy. 33 years later, I and my family have still not been able to visit
>> Eli's graveside or say Kaddish, the Jewish prayer of mourning, for his
>> soul.
>>
>> Please click on http://www.elicohen.com/petition/ to sign a petition
>> imploring President Hafez Assad of Syria to fulfill an emotional and
>> humanitarian duty by returning Eli's remains to Israel.
>>
>> Finally, please forward this email to everyone you know.
>>
>> Maurice Cohen (Eli's brother)
>>
>>

>        I must take issue with Rabbi Blau when he says that he learned from
> his teachers to make his own decisions and not rely on Da'as Torah/asking
> the advice of Torah authorities. He calls this Bicheera Chafshis/free
> choice. I doubt very strongly that his illustrious teachers taught him the
> modern super-value called 'autonomy,' which means that one chooses which
> values to adhere to. One makes oneself and relies(at least in theory) on
> no person, text, or tradition. What they most probably did teach was that
> every human being is confronted with choices daily. "It has been told to
> you O Man what is good and what Hashem wants from you." We must choose
> between what Hashem desires from us (which we know from Torah) and what
> our Yetser Hara (which might include getting the approval of our academic
> peers by following the intellectual currents of our era) advises us to do.
> Our greatest hero is Moshe Rabeinu a"h who is given the ultimate accolade
> Eved Hashem/Servant of Hashem. The modern hero or anti-hero is always
> rebelling and finding his own way. "Bnee, Al Teileich Biderech Eetam/My
> son do not go in their paths." There is a Torah way to recreate yourself.
> That is what learning Muser and Chasidus is all about.    
>        "Know G-d in all that you do - even in sinning." I take it for
> granted that most of us would agree that almost all human actions are
> value driven. Where does one go for advice which touches on values? When
> one is in need of medical advise doesn't one go to the greatest expert one
> can get? A great doctor is more than the sum of his knowledge and
> experience. The same is true about the Gedolei Vitsadeekei Hador/The
> greatest Torah scholars and saints of our generation. They are the
> personification of the Torah. There is a famous Rosh, where he brings 2
> reasons for a particular decision. One is a deduction from a Gemara. The
> second is a Svara/logical reason. The world says that the first proof is
> merely one Gemara which others can easily quibble over. But the second is
> from the whole Shas. The Rosh was totally saturated with the thinking of
> Chazal/our sages and his own great teachers. "Yiftach in his generation is
> like Shmueil in his." 
>            I suspect that this whole controversy about Da'as Torah (which
> is a recent name for what was known previously as Da'as Chachamim) is
> really a conflict of values. Certain intellectuals would like to
> incorporate elements of modernity into Torah. But values such as autonomy,
> pluralism, and relativism etc. are at heart contradictory to the whole
> essence of the Torah. The law of contradiction is still in effect. This is
> not to deny that there are elements of modernity which are compatible with
> Torah values. "Do not believe that the nations have Torah, believe that
> they have wisdom." 
>            I remember a Musar Shmooz in Elul from Reb Aaron Kotler, where
> he concluded that there really is no such category as Rishus/optional
> behavior. For the individual really serious about Avodas Hashem/serving
> Hashem there is a Torah mandate for all of one's behaviour.
>           It is well known that Reb Aaron had a disagreement with the
> previous Lubavitcher Rebbe, Reb Yoseif Yitschak. Yet, I was once talking
> with the Rosh Yeshiva and a Rav interrupted us with what turned out to be
> Loshon Hara against Lubavitcher Chasidim in France. He said how silly they
> were by not making any decision without consulting the Rebbe, Reb Menachem
> Mendel. The Rosh Yeshiva responded by saying that the Chasidim were right
> as this behavior made certain that all  they did was in accordance with
> Da'as Torah.  Kseeva Vichaseema Tovah.             	         

Dear Paul,
With all due respect I don't see how you read this into R' Blau's
posting.While I'm sure R' Blau can respond, let me give you my poor layman's
read on this issue. There's a big difference between asking for advice and
laying off your bchira chafshit to someone else. To me a moreh derech is one
input that helps you understand the alternatives and the reasons but in the
end we each make our own decisions. Just as a parent must eventually let go
and hope that the halachic gyroscope they implanted in their children
functions on its own, so too must a rosh yeshiva. NNaniach that making
decisions for someone else can work, it doesn't help much in teaching them to
make their own(ie eventually you must let go of the bicycle).

Ktiva vchatima tova
Joel

<< 
 >        I must take issue with Rabbi Blau when he says that he learned from
 > his teachers to make his own decisions and not rely on Da'as Torah/asking
 > the advice of Torah authorities. >>
 (Merling, Paul)

t is not clear that the doctrine of Daas Torah which posits that
Talmidei Chachamim have special insight even in non-halchic matters,
which is relevant in the communal leadership sphere, need be translated
as to deciding private personal matters for others.  In certain ways in
some Yeshivos, Roshei Yeshiva are going beyond the Chassidishe Rebbes
who gave all kinds of advice to their Chassidim but only when asked.  A
new trend of telling boys what to do or where to learn even when not
asked reflects a sense of control by Rebbe over talmid that should
require justification.
Perhaps my being taught by my own Rebbeim that bechira chofshis is
fundamental to yahadus and that taking responsibility for my own
decisions its logical implication makes me uncomfortable with this
trend. I do work in a yeshiva and have students who come for advice but
they expect me to help them clarify the issues and then make up their
own minds.
Sincerely,
(Rabbi) Yosef Blau

>Just derech agav - Chazal refer constantly to minhag hamakom.  What is 
>the basis for a family minhag?
	From what I've been told there is no such thing;  only minhag hamakom. 
In places like America or Israel where people of many different mekomos
come together,  they blend,   but it is the mokom which is koveah the
minhag.

Gershon

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