Avodah Mailing List

Volume 01 : Number 037

Thursday, September 3 1998

• Re: Avodah V1 #34
• Re: Bicheera/choice
• Re: Bicheera/choice
• Ba'al Nefesh Yachmir
• Sorry
• Beracha on Mitzvat aseh shehazeman gerama
• Re: Bicheera/choice
• Your recent posting
• Re: Ba'al Nefesh Yachmir
• Bicheera and choice
• Avodah V1 #35
• Re: Brachos for Women
• Re: bagel chips, and maybe melba toast
• proofs from pasukim

>also, I have seen innumerable references to Juno .
	As one of the offenders on this score,  it is beyond the control of the
poster.  It is automatically put there by Juno whenever you send an
email.  Price of getting free email.

Gershon

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Can someone please tell me why making the incredibly difficult decision of
relying on someone more knowledgeable and objective than yourself and
being mevatel your daas in order for what you believe is the proper way to
serve
HAshem isn't considered bechiras chafshis. Rabbi Blau makes it seem that
all who go to a rav for a decision are not fulfilling there
responsibility to make choice, although that might be true in some cases,
I believe that in the majority of cases it takes much more courage to
follow someone else then rely on you own intuition. Therefore the
decision to go to a Rav might be an act of free choice. The
greatest proof
might be the strong resistance that so many people have on this list to
consulting with a Rav on day to day matters---just a thought
Elie Ginsparg

>>>Can someone please tell me why making the incredibly difficult decision
of relying on someone more knowledgeable and objective than yourself and
being mevatel your daas in order for what you believe is the proper way to
serve HAshem isn't considered bechiras chafshis.<<<
Technical answer: Once you have made the initial choice to obey whatever
Rav Ploni says what other choices in life are left?  Thus, you have
abrogated all responsibility for bechira.

I'm not sure I agree with R' Blau's understanding that there is a chiyuv of
bechira.  However, I also cannot fathom this concept of 'bitul hada'at'.
As I've written before, and it bears repeating every time this topic comes
up, (1) a talmid is obligated to disagree with his Rebbe if he feels the
Rebbe is incorrect.  See Ruach haChaim on "havei mitavek b'afar ragleihem".
(2) No one would argue that seeking advice/counsel from someone with
greater experience and understanding is a positive thing when important
decsions are involved.  R' Blau himself as mashgiach of a yeshiva provides
guidence to hundreds of young men.  If I was sick I would certainly seek
the counsel of a doctor rather then attempt to do surgery on myself.  (3) I
would not call my doctor every time I have a headache or sneeze; calling a
Rav for every little problem is  "halachic hyperchondria".

You may disagree with me practically on what falls into the category of a
major life decsion and what is minor, but agree at least that this is a
valid philosophical model.

>>>it takes much more courage to follow someone else then rely on you own
intuition. Therefore the decision to go to a Rav might be an act of free
choice. The greatest proof might be the strong resistance that so many
people have on this list to consulting with a Rav on day to day matters<<<

non-sequitor.

-Chaim B.

Having just recently joined the list, I do not know what has already been
written on the topic of Ba'al nefesh yachmir, but one or two points come to my
mind.

First, an analysis of the phrase itself: Ba'al nefesh - yachmir.  It does not
say EVERYone should be machmir.  Nor does it say NO one should be machmir.
The ba'al nefesh should be machmir.  Who is a ba'al nefesh and who is an
average Jew?  Clearly, the average Jew should NOT be machmir, lest his actions
be categorized as yuhara, which is a most negative motive.  If a person feels
that he can rightly take upon himself the title of Ba'al Hefesh, then THAT
person can be machmir.  For the rest of us simple Jews in the world, the
lenient position is clearly sufficient.

Another point, and again I plead ignorance if it has already been discussed:
One must be exceptionally careful when accepting a chumra to see it as such -
a stringency BEYOND the letter of the law.  As many point out, to claim
something is assur when it is not is just as wrong as to claim an incorrect
hetter.  One is bal tosif, the other bal tigra ( not literally, I know, but
drash-wise it clarifies the point ).  All too often when accepting a chumra,
we tend to totally discredit those who do not accept our standard of halacha (
we all fall prey to this on one issue or another ).

Eliyahu Teitz

            I am very sorry if I offended Rabbi Blau or anyone else on the
list. I did not intend to insult or ridicule anyone.  Please be Mocheil me.
As others thought that the remarks were disrespectful, if or when I will
post again I will be much more careful.
Kseeva Vichaseema Tovah.   

Someone earlier this week claimed R' Ovadya Yosef paskens that ashkenazic
women should not say a beracha on a mitzvat aseh shehz'man gerama.  This
seems to be a misquotation.  In Yechave Da'at I:67 R' Ovadya Yoseh strongly
advocates sefardic women not say a beracha at the risk of beracha l'vatalh.
For Ashkenazim he simply notes that the language of the Rama is "ain mochin
b'yadam", meaning there is a heter for Ashkenazic women to say the beracha,
but no chiyuv as a l'chatchilah.  (This issue of heter vs. chiyuv for the
beracha is further discussed in the petach habayit, the into. to Halichot
Baita, where he hinges it on a machloket Rishonim).

-CB

Merling, Paul wrote:
> 
> >        I must take issue with Rabbi Blau when he says that he learned from
> > his teachers to make his own decisions and not rely on Da'as Torah/asking
> > the advice of Torah authorities.

I think you completely misread and misunderstood what Rabbi Blau said. 
Is it rally your idea that we should not make any decissions but ask 
for guidance from our Rabbis for all life decissions?
kativa vechatima tova

Dear Mr. Mayles:

    In your recent posting to the Avodah list, you wrote "Is it possible, as
another poster suggested, that the idea of being choshsesh for the daas
HaMachmir (as the term Bal nefesh Yachmir suggests)is not the correct
approach to dealing with differing opinions
in halacha,and the correct approach is to treat it as and Elu VeElu
Divrei Elokim Chaim?"

    While I am not a boki in shas, if I remember correctly, the quote
(Eruvin 13b) continues "Vehahalacha cedivrei bais Hillel."  Furthermore,
when this announcement was made from above, Bais Shammai stopped holding to
its positions.

    Where possible, we try to hold with all existing opinions (such as out
text of Modim deRabbanan, or why we blow 100 kolos on the shofar rather than
the nine required dioraisoh).  Where holding to all opinions is impractical,
we follow a more mekel shitah, which is why most of us don't daven vasikin.

Best wishes,

Levi Reisman

In a message dated 98-09-03 10:01:55 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Another point, and again I plead ignorance if it has already been discussed:
 One must be exceptionally careful when accepting a chumra to see it as such -
 a stringency BEYOND the letter of the law.  As many point out, to claim
 something is assur when it is not is just as wrong as to claim an incorrect
 hetter.  One is bal tosif, the other bal tigra ( not literally, I know, but
 drash-wise it clarifies the point ).  All too often when accepting a chumra,
 we tend to totally discredit those who do not accept our standard of halacha
(
 we all fall prey to this on one issue or another ).
 
 Eliyahu Teitz
  >>
Along these lines there's an interesting tosfot in eruvin101b(not that long
ago for daf yomites) [dh-rabbi]  where he differentiates between being machmir
when you know its mutar vs. machmir due to taut. While not directly analagous,
its probably not infrequent that we're machmir without realizing its a chumra.

ktiva vchatima tova

Joel

It is difficult to respond to the accusation that one has misquoted
one's Rabbeim based on the assertion that they could not have said it. 
The fact that I have worked in chinuch for over three decades in
yeshivos that were headed by my Rabbeim, with my primary responsibility
advising and guiding talmidim, should indicate that they were
comfortable with my interpretation of their views.
More importantly, let us examine the basic question based on what
appears in the sources. The Mishna at the end of Kiddushin discusses the
types of professions to be taught to a son and which to be avoided; no
mention is made of any role of a Rebbe in making that determination for
his talmid. The Chovos Halevovos discusses how an individual should
decide how he should earn his livelihood, Again the decision is his
alone.
In Yoreh Deah (240) the mechaber rules that a son and not the father has
the final decision where he learns, and the Ramo adds that it ie equally
true about the choice of a spouse.  I found no mention of any role of a
Rebbe in either choice.
Calling accepting the responsibility for one's critical life-decisions
"adopting the modern value of autonomy" does not change it being
appropriate. That a decision should reflect a Torah perspective that one
has hopefully gained from Rabbeim is totally consistent with one's
making the decisions in his personal life.  In fact I am not aware of
any Gemoros which tell of Rabbeim making these decisions for their
talmidim. Eitzah tovah(advice) and Pesak are fundamentally different.
Sincerely,
Yosef Blau

>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:24:49 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Eli Turkel <turkel@icase.edu>
>Subject: [none]
>One example is whether women can make a beracha on lulav, shofar etc.
>He insists that modern sefardi women are bound by the Shulchan Arukh
>and not allowed to say such berachot. Then he continues to state that
>ashkenazi women should also stop reciting these blessings and quotes
>a Chacham Tzvi who says that the sefardi minhag is more correct !????
>Somehow, Rav Ovadiah Yosef finds one ashkenzai opinion among thousands
>od dissenters and the overwhelming custom of generations of ashkenazi
>communties and he paskens like that lone opinion.

That is interesting since the minhag Tzanz is not to allow the saying of
brochas for women.

>------------------------------

-- 


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I am curious how Tzanz broke off from the rest of Minhag Ashkenaz. Did the
Divrei Chaim rule against RT?

YGB

> That is interesting since the minhag Tzanz is not to allow the saying of
> brochas for women.
> 
>                         |    mshulman@ix.netcom.com   |
>                         |         718-436-7705        |

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I am forwarding the query I received below to the group. I was under the
impression that bagel chips are made with the intent to be fried, and,
therefore, even if they are crumbs greater than a kezayis, have the bracha
of mezonos. As you can see, however, a Mashgiach informed Elly that this
is not the case. If so, should the bracha not be hamotzi? 

On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Elly Bachrach wrote: 

> I believe that there is no frying in the process.  R' turkeltaub told me
> that he has seen them made and the slices are sprayed with an oil/spice
> spray before the second baking, as a delivery means for the flavoring. 
> 
> Elly Bachrach
> Heide Corporation
> 7434 Skokie Blvd.
> Skokie, IL 60077
> Phone: (847) 676-2880
> Fax: (847) 676-2880
> E-Mail:  ebachrach@heidecorp.com

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

While going over daf yomi this week I was fascinated by the gemara which
asks why we don't use an avukah for bedikas chametz instead of a candle
since it provides more light. It wasn't the question which was so amazing
as the next line in the gemara which continued by proving that a torch was
a better light from a pasuk and a statement of Rava. What was extremely
obvious to the naked eye was supported by a pasuk and a statement of an
amora.As I was thinking about this gemara I reminded myself of a gemara in
Eruvin (daf 56a) which says that the sun rises in the east and sets in the
west while traveling through the southern sky which isn't amazing except
that the gemara proves this from a pasuk and not by saying to go look
outside during the day and see fro your self. After speaking with Rabbi
Bechoffer we reminded each other that there are many such examples. This
begs the question of why chazal felt the need to prove physically
observable facts from pasukim. Why were the pasukim added proof more than
what everyone knew and could clearly see. I thought of a possible answer
but agreed with Rabbi Bechoffer that instead of writing it we should let
Chaim write his opinion so he doesn't have to spend time proving mine is
wrong (I hope this is taken with the humor that I intended) But seriously
I want to know if this ever bothered any one else or if anyone has heard
an explanation for this.
Elie Ginsparg

********************


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