Avodah Mailing List

Volume 01 : Number 047

Monday, September 14 1998

• Re: Bas Kol and Halachah
• Hefsek
• Re: proofs from pasukim
• Re: strange sheva brachot
• JUICE Catalogue
• Yeridas haDoros
• Reading in a Makom Tenufah
• Re: strange sheva brachot
• Re: Yeridas HaDoros
• Similarity in Language between megila and Yibum
• Re: Yeridas HaDoros

In n1v41, Chana Luntz <heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: In a similar vein, Tosphos notes (at the top of Chullin 44a and also in
: Eruvin) that in the case of beis hillel and beis shammai, the torah laid
: down the rule "achrei rabbim l'hatos" and as beis hillel were more
: numerous than beis shammai, the bas kol was only coming to support the
: torah understandin (but on the other hand beis shammai were sharper so
: there may have been doubt).

This also eliminates the problem I had when learning Eruvin 13b.

"Lo bashamayim hi" would require us to ignore the bas kol. According to Tosfos
though, the Bas Kol was only to eliminate any doubt lingering in people's
minds. The halachic process gave the same results.

We have to remember that until this generation, unresolved machlokesin were
very rare. Hillel and Shammai themselves only had three. (It was also the first
generation with no Sanhedrin in the Lishkas HaGazis. The two are probably
connected.) The fear that this was the birth of two Toros is therefore quite
logical. As is discomfort with relying on "acharei rabim" -- it wasn't applied
outside the walls of the lishkah very often in the past. People were probably
quite nervous.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5920 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 12-Sep-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

I notices two definitions of hefsek: hesech hada'as; interrupting the
matbei'ah of the chachahmim or the pasuk.

For example, the problem with hefsek between washing and hamotzi is one of
hesech hada'as. For example, one may ask for the salt.

I'm confused WRT tephillah. On the one hand, we're careful not to repeat
words. On the other, we add piyutim to chazaras hasha"tz.

If anyone could post clear guidelines, I'd be greatful.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5920 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 12-Sep-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

In v1n37, Elie Ginsparg <C-Maryles@neiu.edu> writes:
: While going over daf yomi this week I was fascinated by the gemara which
: asks why we don't use an avukah for bedikas chametz instead of a candle
: since it provides more light. It wasn't the question which was so amazing
: as the next line in the gemara which continued by proving that a torch was
: a better light from a pasuk and a statement of Rava.

Here we can actually use the pasuk. After all, different neiros (lamps,
translating "neir" as "candle" is anachronistic) have different amounts of
light. The halachah doesn't make distinctions between different kinds of
neiros for b'dikas chameitz.

With the pasuk, we can show that not only does an avukah provide more light
than a neir, but this difference has halachic significance.

:       As I was thinking about this gemara I reminded myself of a gemara in
: Eruvin (daf 56a) which says that the sun rises in the east and sets in the
: west ...

This is a real problem. Particularly given "lama li kra, svara hu" (as R' YGB
quotes in v1n45).

Two distinctions:
1- S'vara (logic) isn't the same as observation. Perhaps we have a problem
only with p'sukim that present conclusions derivable from other p'sukim, and
not with those that present observable data, or conclusions one could reach
from observation.

2- Hashem didn't need to give us a pasuk to state the obvious, or things we
can conclude on our own. Therefore, if that were the /point/ of the pasuk, we
could ask "lama li". However, if the subject comes up derech agav (e.g. in one
of David HaMelech's praises of the Creator of the sun and the earth's spin),
why not quote the pasuk? If for no other reason than it's nice to quote
p'sukim. (Besides, all the people who don't learn mikra because they're
relying on the Tosfos' heter (that shas includes mikra and mishnah as well)
need every pasuk they can get.)

IOW, I still would give observable reality priority (we know my opinion of
non-observable reality already) over mikra. These "proofs" of the obvious are
perhaps really there just because tannaim and amoraim /enjoyed/ and felt it
important to cite relevent p'sukim.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5920 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 12-Sep-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

(BTW, the word in the subject line ought to be b'rachos, with a sh'va na under
the beis.)

R' YGB, I think I found a tarta disasrei. A while back, you related the issur
of b'rachah livatalah to that of sheim Hashem lashav. Now, you are
entertaining the idea of an English b'rachah livatalah. Saying "G-d" (even
with an "o" :-) wouldn't be sheim Hashem lashav, would it?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5920 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 12-Sep-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

I know, I know, most of you haven't heard from me in ages. It has been busy 
around here (see the sig line). Anyway, I was asked by a friend to 
post this so I am posting it. Ksiva vaChasima Tova to all, and I 
hope to be able to become more active in the next few months.

-- Carl

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			Spring 1998 Course Catalog

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Introduction to Classical Jewish Philosophy
Meanings of the Holocaust
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Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Ksiva vaChasima Tova (or Ktiva vaChatima Tova, depending
on your preference). May you and yours be inscribed and
sealed for a Healthy and Happy New Year.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Elie Ginsparg wrote:
> I read in a book the other day which describes yeridas hdoros as begininng
> from Adam ha rishon untill the present. I know most people try to explain
> yeridas hadoros from matan torah (maamad har sini) there is a big nafka
> minah between the two. If yerida hadoros is a function of maamad har sini
> then it should only apply to jews, but if it's based on the generations
> from adam ha rishon, then it should apply to all mankind including
> non-jews. The book I read didn't have a source. Does anyone have sources
> which will indicate where the yerida begins. I think this will also help
> us better understand the concept in general.

Take a look at Ramban Bereishis 6:4; he posits that there is a Yeridah
after the initial generations, and as is well-known he posits another
Yeridah from the effects of the Mabul.
				Mordechai

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Does anyone know the limitations on what one can read in a makom tenufah 
(e.g. a bathroom)? What about religious Christian fiction (e.g. Milton, 
or *The Brother's Karamozov*), theology (e.g. Whitehead, Eliade, or 
Hicks), and academic Jewish studies?

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It is, as stated by one of the few Chayei Adam's I know, Klal 6.

YGB

> R' YGB, I think I found a tarta disasrei. A while back, you related the issur
> of b'rachah livatalah to that of sheim Hashem lashav. Now, you are
> entertaining the idea of an English b'rachah livatalah. Saying "G-d" (even
> with an "o" :-) wouldn't be sheim Hashem lashav, would it?
> 
> -mi
> 

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I can't say.

It may well only be a theoretical halacha, kind of like ben sorer u'moreh
l'man d'amar lo haya ve'lo nivra. Or maybe it is, literally, a hilchasa
l'meshicha - when there will be a greater BD.

But the theoretical halacha - if we darshan it and are mekabel sechar -
teaches us that yeridas hadoros, again, may be a practical phenomenon, not 
a theological principle.

YGB

On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 Joelirich@aol.com wrote:

> I assume by greater you mean bchachma ubminyan.  Any insights as to how
> chachma is measured-does Yeridat Hadorot play a part?  What exactly is
> this yerida measured by?The concept itself seems very ingrained in at
> least current popular Jewish thinking and if it is a principle or even a
> phenomena which has continued unchecked throughout Jewish history , are
> we on an inexorable march, and to what?? 
> 

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I forwarded the earlier post on this subject to R' Menachem Leibtag of
Yeshivat Har Etzion who had given a shiur on the language of the Megila.
Below is his reply.


i think the kesher is related to responsibility to take leadership
when no one else is around -  like din of yibum implies.
fits into theme of megilla &
mordechei's comment to esther  if she doesn't help out.
Menachem Leibtag  [ml@virtual.co.il]


Ktiva vchatima tova
Joel Rich

While yeridas hadoros appears to be an observed reality as opposed to a
halchic principle, we shouldn't weaken the point. It is one of the key
distinctions between us and Conservative Judaism. (The CLJS is ascribed powers
that effectively allow it to repeal any d'Rabbanan, or any p'sak on a d'Oraisa,
based on the idea that it is no less authoritative than the Sanhedrin.)

You can't go very far in Shas without encountering "umi amar R' XYZ hachi?
Vihatanya..." or the like -- challenges of statements by amora'im that
contradict those of tana'im. Or, for that matter, challenges of statements
that appear to be redundant because we know the halachah already -- it's the
only opinion cited by the tana'im, or the machlokes amora'im is redundant
because the tana'im already argued the point.

So, while yeridas hadoros may be phenomenological and not halachic, it has
very real halachic impact.

There are people considered to be known exceptions. No one takes issue when
the Gr"a or the Besh"t (each in the appropriate circles) argue with Rishonim,
but would ask a question on the Igros Moshe if it seemed like R' Moshe was
doing the same. (Without another Rishon in support, of course.)

As to whether "gadol mimenu bichochmah ubiminyan" is purely theoretical...
what about intra-era, but inter-generational, machlokesin? These are frequent,
and don't raise eyebrows. This would imply that while there is a trend, and
certain catastrophic events hasten that trend, it's only a tendency. Within a
given era and culture, the bell curves of people's ability overlap.


Shabbos 112b (if they were like mal'achim...) doesn't explain what quality
humanity (or Adas Yisrael) was yoreid in. However, since halachic authority is
tied to chochmah (and number, but the number of observant Jews increases, in
general), and yeridas hadoros is often cited as the cause of decrease in
authority, I have often cited the following gemara:

    R' Papa said to Abayei, "How is it that earlier generations had miracles
    happen for them, bet we don't have miracles? It can't be because of
    their [superior] learning, because in the years of Rav Yehudah all of
    their studies were limited to Nezikin, yet we study all six orders; and
    when Rav Yehudah reached in [tractate] Ukzin [the discussion of], 'If a
    woman presses vegetables in a pot' (others say [the part] 'olives
    pressed with their leaves are clean'), he used to say, 'I see all the
    difficulties of Rab and Samuel here.' yet we have thirteen versions of
    Ukzin.

    "But, when Rav Yehudah took off his first shoe [at the very start
    of a fast], rain used to come, while we torment ourselves and cry
    loudly, and no notice is taken of us!"

    He [Abayei] replied, "The earlier generations were mosrin nafshayhu
    ak'dushas haShem; we are not mosrin nafshin ak'dushas haShem."

                                        - Brachos 20a

With very little pilpul, we can tie mesiras nefesh to yir'as Hashem (by which
I mean G-d, as opposed to haShem, by which I presume the gemara means His
Name, i.e. man's perception of G-d). "Reishis chochmah yir'as Hashem", so we
have a mechanism by which chochmah is lost over time.

Putting it less pilpul-y, authority comes from a particular kind of chochmah,
the chochmah of a yarei shamayim. As the memes of the Har Sinai generation are
lost over time, so is yir'as shamayim, and therefore so is the
frequency/quality of mesiras nefesh, and of proper chochmah (as described by
Sh'lomo haMelech).

-mi

PS: Could we please watch how we are quoting other people's posts? They're
growing pretty long again.

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5921 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 14-Sep-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

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