Avodah Mailing List

Volume 02 : Number 061

Tuesday, November 24 1998

• 50th birthday
• Re: Ayin tahat ayin
• Re: achosi hi
• Re: 50th birthday
• Re: Avodah V2 #60
• Ayin tachas Ayin
• Havdolo Standing
• Re: Avodah V2 #60
• Re: Nice Vort!
• Expelling Students
• Re: Nice Vort!
• Re: Expelling Students
• Nice Vort
• Re: Nice Vort
• Re: Nice Vort!
• Re: eved as shliach, kinyanim on bechorah
• re: havdallah
• Re: Nice Vort!
• Ayin tachas ayin

Does anyone in the group know of any vorts appropriate for one celebrating
his 50th birthday.  I am aware of the mishnah in Avos. Is there any other
place that would be a good place to speak from?
Thank you to those people who answered my previous post regarding havadlah.

 Totally unrelated - when is it  proper to throw a student out from a
yeshiva or Bais Yaakov. What reasons would warrant a student being thrown
out? Big Gedolai Yisroel rarely ever dismissed a talmid from school.  It
seems that people now a days know better than them. Not every student  fits
a certain mold and not every student is perfect.  I don't think that these
these are reasons they should be deprived of a Jewish education. Once you
throw out a student, it may have an effect on him for a long time to come.
If anyone can enlighten me on this subject,  I will appreciate it greatly.
Baruch

>I don't have a copy of Pritchard's Near East Documents, but I'm pretty
>sure that he brings several Near East texts of laws that are both fairly
>close in idiomatic structure to Ayin tachas Ayin, and whose
>interpretation is likely to have been fairly literal. I am not argueing
>here what the Torah interpretation of the posuk should be. My point is
>that before we make claims what the idiomatic expression "must have
>meant" we should make sure that we are not biasing ourselves on a later
>view of what the range of the idiom could mean. This issue potentially
>slides for me to "the Torah could not have meant that because it
>violates basic rules of [fairness, equal rights, etc.]".

According to Pritchard, the Code of Hammurabi has the following provisions
which closely parallel (and are also strikingly different from) Exodus
21:23-25 and similar passages:

"196.  If a seignior [meaning ambiguous] has destroyed the eye of a member
of the aristocracy, they shall destroy his eye.

"197.  If he has broken a seignior's bone, they shall brake his bone.

"198.  If he has destroyed the eye of a commonor or broken the bone of a
commonor, he shall pay one mina of silver."

Articles 200 and 201 contain similar provisions for knocking out someone's
tooth.

It seems pretty clear that Article 196 means literally putting out the
offender's eye, since Article 198 explicitly contrasts to it the payment of
monetary compensation.  So much for "must have meant..."  On the other
hand, monetary compensation for injuries was also part of the culture of
the Ancient Near East.  On balance, this evidence seems to support the idea
that a literal interpretation was possible.

The striking difference, of course, is that the Torah does not make
distinctions of social class in administering justice.

Kol tuv,

Arnie
Arnie or Linda Kuzmack
kuzmack@cpcug.org

Raffy Davidovich wrote:

> -Help me out Joel (or someone else),
> 
> what have the banim done that emulates these achosi hi stories?


I meant to say that Yitzchak was presented with the same circumstances
his father faced and acted in the same way.  From here perhaps we are
introduced to a concept that there is a metaphysical link between the
action of avos and banim - avraham and his son Yitzchak.  - Ma'aseh avos
siman l'banim.

Take care,

Joel



Joel
Margolies                                                                           
margol@ms.com	
W-212-762-2386

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 bjk1@pipeline.com wrote:

> Does anyone in the group know of any vorts appropriate for one celebrating
> his 50th birthday.  I am aware of the mishnah in Avos. Is there any other
> place that would be a good place to speak from?
I'm not thinking of anything in particular, but think yovel maybe
something will click

> Thank you to those people who answered my previous post regarding havadlah.
> 
>  Totally unrelated - when is it  proper to throw a student out from a
> yeshiva or Bais Yaakov. What reasons would warrant a student being thrown
> out? Big Gedolai Yisroel rarely ever dismissed a talmid from school.  It
> seems that people now a days know better than them. Not every student  fits
> a certain mold and not every student is perfect.  I don't think that these
> these are reasons they should be deprived of a Jewish education. Once you
> throw out a student, it may have an effect on him for a long time to come.
> If anyone can enlighten me on this subject,  I will appreciate it greatly.
> Baruch
> 
> 
Obviosly there is no one answer as each situation is unique. However, in
most cases people focus on the schools responsibility to the student in
question when in fact the school is responsible for every student which
this student can be hurting. IOW- instead of focusing on denying the
trouble maker a jewish education, focus on the good studenty who stands to
have his/her jewish education ruined because of this trouble maker. If I
was a principal, I'd be equally worried about hurting the student if I
kick him out or the damage he could do if I keep him. Ultimately each case
must be weighed and das torah consulted, this is definitely an area which
requires asking sheilos.
Elie Ginsparg

> That pshat is nice, however, doesn't the Ramban say that the brocho
> intended for Eisav was 'Bircas Avrohom' - the succession of klal
> yisroel?  (I don't really understand the Ramban because that brocho
> seems to be given at the end of the parsha to Yaakov - if it was
> destined for Eisav - why didn't Yitzchak give it to Ya'akov when he
> appeared before Yitzchak as Eisav?) Does he 'owe' Eisav that much?

For a Reshon who held that the Bracha given to Yaacov when he came as
Eisav included Birchas Avraham, see the Abravanel. He interprets the the
begining of the bracha in the form of bracha stam to mean birchat
avraham and then goes on from there. He also has an interesting
interpretation of why Yitzchak asked Eisav to hunt.

Avi Feldblum

Avi Feldblum writes: >>I don't have a copy of Pritchard's Near East Documents, 
but I'm pretty sure that he brings several Near East texts of laws that are both
fairly close in idiomatic structure to Ayin tachas Ayin, and whose 
interpretation is likely to have been fairly literal. I am not argueing here 
what the Torah interpretation of the posuk should be. My point is that before we
make claims what the idiomatic expression <<

One could make the point that every idiom was once meant literally.  EG hagam 
Shaul Banvi'im was once a lieral reference to Shaul and became a metaphor.

Simliarly habeus corpus once literally referred to a real live corpse. <g>

I am not saying that Ayin Tachas Ayin couldn't be understood literally by 
exteranl conptemporry codes, or that it was never meant literally in another 
context, What I am syaing the possuk inteneded it idiomatically to refer to fair
or just compensation.  Chazal "specficfied" the details of that compensation.

BTW Rav Yerychom Gorelick once asked so why does the Troah use the harsh 
metaphor of Ayin tachas Ayin?  He answered because on a certain level that's 
what the perpetrator deserves (dinai shomayim) but it's practically impossible 
to mete out (dinei odom) because no 2 eyes are alike, etc.

Regards,
Rich Wolpoe  

BTW Rav S. Schwab insisted that everyone sat for Havdolo.
Regards, Rich Wolpoe

>Subject: Havadlah

>Does anyone know the reason people stand for havadlah even though they
sit
>for kiddush ? Also what is the source for the practice or is there a
source
>that women have the minhag of not drinking from the cup of havadlah?
 >baruch

The Shelah says that the reason that women do not drink is because Chazal
say that the tree that Chava gave Adam Harishon from was a vine, and that
she squeezed out from it.  Also, as she tried to "extinguish the light of
the world" she does not drink.

The greater problem though is whether or not she may make a "Borie Meorie
Haeish".  See the discussion in Mishnah Berurah and Be'er Halacha on this
question.

Ben
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A word I heard on the subject:

Picture how far Rabbi Shim'on got in darshening "es" -- he was in the middle
of D'varim when he hit his first failure. After all those d'rashos, picture
the temptation to "cook the data", ignore the point and move on.

Rabbi Akiva only gave his p'shat, that in "es Hashem E-lokecha tira" the "es"
includes talmidei chachamim after seeing R' Shim'on give up a life's work
at the first indication that he was incorrect. Witnessing this dedication
to emes -- which, after all, is a sheim Hashem -- was how R' Akiva found the
d'rashah connecting awe for talmidei chachamim to that for the Ribbono Shel
Olam and R' Shim'on didn't.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5987 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 24-Nov-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 bjk1@pipeline.com wrote:

>  Totally unrelated - when is it proper to throw a student out from a
> yeshiva or Bais Yaakov. What reasons would warrant a student being
> thrown out? Big Gedolai Yisroel rarely ever dismissed a talmid from
> school.  It seems that people now a days know better than them. Not
> every student fits a certain mold and not every student is perfect.  I
> don't think that these these are reasons they should be deprived of a
> Jewish education. Once you throw out a student, it may have an effect on
> him for a long time to come.  If anyone can enlighten me on this
> subject, I will appreciate it greatly.  Baruch
> 

I think principlles of Rodef apply here. The Maharatz Chiyus says a Mored
b'Malchus is killed because he is Rodef society, and I think a student
should be expelled (NOT KILLED!!!!!! UNFORTUNATELY, NOWADAYS YOU MUST
CLARIFY SUCH STATEMENTS) if he/she is a harmful influence on other
students or the school's reputation.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

In a message dated 98-11-24 09:31:03 EST, you write:

<< 
 A word I heard on the subject:
 
 Picture how far Rabbi Shim'on got in darshening "es" -- he was in the middle
 of D'varim when he hit his first failure. After all those d'rashos, picture
 the temptation to "cook the data", ignore the point and move on.
 
 Rabbi Akiva only gave his p'shat, that in "es Hashem E-lokecha tira" the "es"
 includes talmidei chachamim after seeing R' Shim'on give up a life's work
 at the first indication that he was incorrect. Witnessing this dedication
 to emes -- which, after all, is a sheim Hashem -- was how R' Akiva found the
 d'rashah connecting awe for talmidei chachamim to that for the Ribbono Shel
 Olam and R' Shim'on didn't.
 
 -mi
  >>
Nice vort but didn't it ever bother you that such an obvious pasuk was missed
by R'Shimon for so long? I've always assumed, based on no source whatsoever,
that R' Shimon was ambivalent about  the drasha that R' Akiva used and
vacillated until he finally rejected it. Any clarifications are always
appreciated.

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

In a message dated 98-11-24 09:52:57 EST, you write:

<< 
 On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 bjk1@pipeline.com wrote:
 
 >  Totally unrelated - when is it proper to throw a student out from a
 > yeshiva or Bais Yaakov. What reasons would warrant a student being
 > thrown out? Big Gedolai Yisroel rarely ever dismissed a talmid from
 > school.  It seems that people now a days know better than them. Not
 > every student fits a certain mold and not every student is perfect.  I
 > don't think that these these are reasons they should be deprived of a
 > Jewish education. Once you throw out a student, it may have an effect on
 > him for a long time to come.  If anyone can enlighten me on this
 > subject, I will appreciate it greatly.  Baruch
 > 
 
 I think principlles of Rodef apply here. The Maharatz Chiyus says a Mored
 b'Malchus is killed because he is Rodef society, and I think a student
 should be expelled (NOT KILLED!!!!!! UNFORTUNATELY, NOWADAYS YOU MUST
 CLARIFY SUCH STATEMENTS) if he/she is a harmful influence on other
 students or the school's reputation.
 
 YGB
  >>
We probably all agree on the boundary conditions(ie extreme cases where either
a student clearly should or shouldn't be thrown out). As a former day school
board of education chairman I can tell you the real problems, as in life in
general, are in the grey areas. In these cases(please don't stone me), at
least in some communities, the general approach is to weigh the "harm" to all
parties, get input from educators with training in these areas and direct
knowledge of the case involved, seek Rabbinic input as appropriate, pray a lot
and, at all times, try to be god-centric rather than ego-centric.

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joelirich@aol.com [mailto:Joelirich@aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 9:57 AM
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: Nice Vort!
> 
> 
> In a message dated 98-11-24 09:31:03 EST, you write:
> 
> << 
>  A word I heard on the subject:
>  
>  Picture how far Rabbi Shim'on got in darshening "es" -- he 
> was in the middle
>  of D'varim when he hit his first failure. After all those 
> d'rashos, picture
>  the temptation to "cook the data", ignore the point and move on.
>  
>  Rabbi Akiva only gave his p'shat, that in "es Hashem 
> E-lokecha tira" the "es"
>  includes talmidei chachamim after seeing R' Shim'on give up 
> a life's work
>  at the first indication that he was incorrect. Witnessing 
> this dedication
>  to emes -- which, after all, is a sheim Hashem -- was how R' 
> Akiva found the
>  d'rashah connecting awe for talmidei chachamim to that for 
> the Ribbono Shel
>  Olam and R' Shim'on didn't.

Just to quote a source - I heard this explanation from the rosh yehiva of
Kerem B'yavneh, HaRav Chaim Yaakov Goldvicht in 1985. I don't recall if he
quoted anyone.

>  
>  -mi
>   >>
> Nice vort but didn't it ever bother you that such an obvious 
> pasuk was missed
> by R'Shimon for so long? I've always assumed, based on no 

Why did it have to be his life's work? See Pesachim (22b I think) - shimon
ha'amsuni v'amri la nachemiah ha'amsuni haya doresh kol essin shebatorah.

It's possible that he stated that every es has a drush, and proceeded to
prove his contention from breishis through v'zos habracha. When he got stuck
in v'eschanan, he not only refused to make up something, but he reneged on
his contention. (btw, these weren't just "nice vorts"; some were halacha
l'mayseh, which had to be reversed - see the gemara there for examples.)

This doesn't contradict the vort Micha quoted - he ended up rejecting part
of his approach to darshening; to some degree, he'd have to start from
scratch.

> source whatsoever,
> that R' Shimon was ambivalent about  the drasha that R' Akiva used and
> vacillated until he finally rejected it. Any clarifications are always

The gemara is clear that first R' Shimon/Nechemia attempted to darshan all
the essen, failed to do so, rejected his previous drashos, explained to his
talmidim that just like he received schar for his darshening, he also
receives schar on his rejection of those drashos, and then the gemara says
ad shebo R. Akiva V'dorash...
 
> appreciated.
> 
> Kol Tuv
> Joel Rich
> 

Avi Pechman

I believe the vort originates in the Alter from Kelm's Chochmo u'Mussar.

Kol Tuv,
YGB

In order to help keep this discussion group on a high level I am posting a summary
of some of  the discussions of this issue. This gemora is central to understanding
many issues in the nature of the mesorah.

The gemora  (Bava Kama 41b) mentions that Rav Shimon HaAmasuni darshaned every
word "Es" in the Torah. He ultimately rejected the validity of learning something
new from every "Es" because he could not make sense out of the "Es" in the verse
describing fear of G-d. When his students questioned how he could simply throw
out all his efforts,(Rashi Pesachim 22b)  he replied that just as he would get
reward for the drasha he would get reward for rejecting a false technique (Rashi
Bechoros (6b) . Rabbi Akiva had no problem finding a use for that "Es" also. He
stated that "Es: in the verse describing fear of G-d applied to Torah Scholars. We
see from the fact that the gemora  (Bava Kama 41b) notes that there are Tanaim who
don't darshan the word "Es" that it remained a dispute among Tanaim as to whether
to darshan "Es". This was true not only for Agada but also for Halacha .(Kiddushin
56b;Bechoros 6b)

 ( a ) Rav Dessler:( IV page 353)This demonstrates the nature of Mesorah.
Rav Dessler  brings this gemora to show that even when there is a mesora as to how
to darshan - if any inconsistency is found it can not be used at all.

 ( b ) Maharal: (Chidushei Agados BK 41b) Why reject a technique for one
discrepancy?
The Maharal  asks why Rav Shimon should reject the whole approach of drashaning
"Es" simply because of one case? He answers because the Minim said that the drasha
of "Es" was valid and that this case showed there was more than one G-d. In order
to invalidate their argument he invalidated the use of the drasha of the word
"Es".

 ( c ) Rambam:Drasha is only Rabbinic
The Rambam (Sefer HaMitzvos Shoresh II)  uses this Drasha to illustrate that not
everything that looks like a Doreissa is in fact a Doreissa. The Rambam [Hilchos
Mamrim 6 4) (according to the Radvaz Chelek 8 #165) holds that the drasha at the
base of honoring Torah scholars is only rabbinic. Therefore he holds that even in
the case where the son is a talmid chachom the father's honor takes precedence
since it is Doreissa while the son's is only DeRabbonon.

 ( d ) Sefer Chasidim:Drasha is Doreissa
The Sefer Chasdim  (Perek 9 12) says the drasha for honoring talmidei chachom is
doreiisa. In fact whatever is learned out from the word "Es" is Doreissa as the
Ramban and Rashbatz have proven!.

 ( e ) Maharal:How the fear of Chachomim is manifested.
The Maharal (Nesivos Olam I Nesiv HaTorah Perek 9 page 39)

 ( f ) Maharsha:How Fear of Torah Scholars is understood.
The Maharsha (Bava Kama 41b)  asks what did Rabbi Akiva see that Rav Shimon did
not. Rav Shimon viewed fear of talmidei chachomi as one type of fear and fear of
G-d as a different type. Obviously he  could not equate them as the drasha
implied. Rabbi Akiva, however, understood that fear of talmidei chachom is not
simply one type of fear. Rabbi Akiva understood fear of talmidei Chachomim is
itself fear of G-d.

                                                 Daniel Eidensohn

In a message dated 11/23/98 5:50:54 PM EST, C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

>  Agreed - but why draw a distinction pre/post mattan Torah.  If the din of
>  davar shelo ba la'olam is a function of da'as makneh rather then an 
> arbitrary
>  gezeirat kakatuv it works misevara at all times/places (yes, I should 
> qualify
>  my assumptions, but it is a reasonable position).

Your assumption makes a lot of sense, we also find Poskim who explain that the
rule of Ein Lmeidin Mkodem Matan Torah applies only to halochos that aren't
Msvoroh, (see Sdei Chemed Kllolim Aleph), however WRT DSLB"L since there is
Machlokes whereas Rabi Meir holds that one can be Makneh a DSLB"L so either
way makes logical sense, hence the application of Sevorohs can change before
and after Matan Torah, and see Tosfos D"H Tashich B"M 70b WRT Ono'oh and Ribis
Kodem Matan Torah. To further explain this - the Ramoh (Teshuvo 10) explains
that there is argument whether to a Ben Noach is applied the law of Torah or
their laws are what binds them (all that Torah required was to set up a court
system and not to steel, but other issues regarding Kinyonim etc. they can do
as they please), now while the Halacha is that we apply the Din Torah, however
before Matan Torah perhaps according to all (that they didn't know the Torah,
as it doesn't say that Noach Sheim Veiver and Avrohom tought them those laws,
even if they did there is no proof that it would be binding for them) they
could apply their own law, Ub'nidan Didan that DSLB"L can be Nikneh.
>  
>  >>>Another point Bpashtus Haksuvim it seems that this was a Kinyan
>  Chalipin,<<<
>  
>  Maybe - but see Ramban who cites opinion that there was a kinyan kessef not
>  mentioned in the text, and the sale was not accomplished by the transfer of
>  the lentils (and this will take care of the ona'ah question).

I never intended to be Miyasheiv according to all the Deios, my point was
though 2 fold, one that if this was a chalipin the Halacha is that there is no
Onoh by Chalipin (C"M 227:2), and second even Ldas Horavad (Hil. Mechiroh
13:1) that there is Onoh by chalipin, we could still learn that the lentils
were given as a Kinyan Chalipin that he shouldn't be able to retract while the
actual pay (of the proper value) took place later, to that effect the Ramban
doesn't say that the Kessef was the Kinyan, (however the implication is that
according to that opinion the lentils where unimportant in this transaction),
perhaps Mokom Heenichu (not again <g>).

>  Let us say that there was a significance to the title of bechor 
> irresepective
>  of pi shenayim - how do you make a kinyan on a title?  (Agav, in England I
>  think titles can be sold/transferred, but I'm not sure, so this may be 
> nogeiya
>  l'ma'ase :-))

According to the Pirush on the Even Ezra the sale was a title, however LFAN"D
the Even Ezra says that the younger one "served" the older one (I understand
it Mchayim, vs. the Ramban that this was Lachar Missoh, correct me if I am
wrong).

>  3) Ponim Yofos, Makneh (Kidushin 41b): since "Yad Eved Kyad Raboi" so it is
>  not Btoras Shliuchs, rather as if he himself did it <<<
>  
>  Fantastic chiddush!  I thought yad eved k'yad rabo minimizes the ability of
>  the eved to make kinyanim, e.g. raised in Gittin in connection with the
>  question of how the eved is koneh even his own shtar shchrirur.  

A'draboh, the reason that there is problem to receive his Shtar Sichrur is due
to him being Yaad Raboi so it never got to him, that is why we need the idea
of Gitoi Veyodi Boin Keachas, that is also why Mah Shekonoh Eved Konoh Raboi
as he is an extension of his master so he can't acquire for HIMSELF.

> Can you
>  provide an example where this sevara works to grant additional power to the
>  eved? 

See C"M 346:6, that in case of borrowing when done through an Eved it is
called B'olov Imoy, Mah Shein Kein with a Sholiach.

> e.g. if an eved took terumah for his master would you say that even
>  though he is mufka from shlichut the terumah is chal because of yad of the
>  owner?  

Actually an Eved is not Mufkah from Shlichus See Kessef Mishnoh Hil. Trumos
4:1, he is only Mufkah from those things that he has no connection too e.g.
Gitin V'kidushin (E"H 35).

>  >>>1) WRT freeing Eliezer we enter the issue of Oveir B'esseh, perhaps this
>  would be like Mitzvoh D'rabim (Brochos 47b). <<<
>  
>  Without the derush you could argue this mehalech based on Ramban's geder of
>  that aseih being equivalent to 'lo techaneim' and you don't need mitzvah
>  d'rabbim. 

See the Sugia in Brochos and Klei Nossim on the Rambam (Hil. Avodim) that for
this we do need Mitzvoh Drabim.

BTW I don't understand the Gemoroh's answer that Mitzvoh Drabim is different,
is a Korban Tzibur allowed to come from Gezel?

> Derech derush perhaps everything with regard to the avos is 
> mitzvah
>  d'rabbim as they embodied all of klal yisrael at the time.   

That was what I meant, Ubnosof to the Halacha that Lissoh Isho one can sell a
Sefer Torah.

Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind

The Mishna B'rura states that sitting by kiddush is preferable since 
it's more of a "kiddush b'makom seudah".  Since Havdallah doesn't have 
that consideration, the concept of "standing while escorting the king" 
takes precedence according to some "not the m'chaber".

It should be mentioned though, that many poskim, and the biur ha Gr"a 
say that when one is being motzi others with his brachos, everyone 
should be sitting, even by Havdalah. Strangely enough, tR'Chaim 
Volozhiner stood during havdala, claiming he saw the Gra stand.   But 
I've looked into these matters, since I decided before my marriage that 
I wanted to do the right thing in my home, and I discovered that no 
matter whether you sit or stand, by kiddush or havdala, you have BIG 
names on your side.  I sit by everything.

Raffy

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In a message dated 11/24/98 9:31:03 AM EST, micha@aishdas.org writes:

> A word I heard on the subject:

DPC"C, with both interpretations.

Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind

I saw a series of articles on the topic in what appears to be a recently
commenced journal (English lang.) entitled "S'vara."  I'm not sure of
the scopre of "ain hamikra yotzei midei pshuto" but if pushed to
literalness, one might think that there are circumstances where midas a
din will be triggered (e.g. true malice) and God may exact precise
retribution (lo aleinu).--Noach Witty.

********************


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