Avodah Mailing List

Volume 02 : Number 107

Monday, January 4 1999

• Re: Erev Rav & Tinok She'Nishba
• Re: Forks2
• Re: Avodah -- mostly on ChaBaD
• [none]
• Re: RMS's Remarks
• Re: RMS's Remarks
• Re: One People?
• Re: Why Other Chassidim Do Not Engage in Kiruv
• Re: Chassidus
• Re: Avodah V2 #90
• Re: Erev Rav & Tinok She'Nishba
• Addendum to Forks2, Halacha Section
• Re: Lying
• Lubavitch ad nauseam
• Re: JEC
• Re: GM'Ch shelo lishma for an Akum - Netziv
• Re: anecdote about yeshiva bachur
• Re: potatoes
• Re: One People?
• Re: Why Other Chassidim Do Not Engage in Kiruv

In a message dated 99-01-02 21:33:19 EST, RYGB writes:

<< This requires opening a new thread. The concept of tinok she'nishba
 pertaining to non-Orthodox, to the best of my knowledge - while something
 I subscribe to personally - is a relatively recent "chiddush." I believe >>

See S"O Horav Hil. Ribis 79, Veod.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

From a chaver of Avodah re Forks2:

> PS: It could have used more proofreading.

He is definitely right, and I apologize. Part of the reason for new
mistakes cropping up in the last edition was that the last publication to
which I submitted the essay, which initially avidly expressed intention to
publish it, but then turned it down in the end, required changing
everything over to Havara Sefaradit. After they rejected it I tried to
change everything back again, but obviously did not fully succeed in
either effort. Sorry!

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

>> He is not an authority because he didn't leave over any chassidim. There are
>> people who willread his works, but there is really no place where one can go
>> to see some one following his 'derech.' It doesn't exist.
>====> PMJI -- Is this supposed to be a "beauty contest" or something?  The
>only Chachamim whose works get studied are those who leave behind lots of
>talmidim -- regardless of the intellectual quality of those works??

:) What does PMJI mean?

>> >the Maharal, Toldos and the Mai Shiloch in Chassidus today?  Bottom
>> 1. The maharal was big in Pershischa Chassidus. I assume that in Ger it is
>> still learned.
>===> Could you explain why this is the case?  Was it that the Rebbe
>happened to be a fan of the MaHaRal?  I am not trying to sound humorous.
>But, it seems that "real chassidim" only learn certain material based upon
>what their Rebbe chooses (?) or whatever seems "fashionable" (?) or if the
>author happened to have had (originally?) a "big following".  What seems
>*absent* is the intellectual quality of the work.

A person is not a Chasid because he has read some sefer and likes it. Today
many Litvishe gadolim will learn chassidic seforim. A Chasid is a chasid
because he has a Rebbe and follows the derech that his Rebbe has set out.
(Breslov is not really an exception. The reason is that since Reb Nachman died
they have always had a person or persons who were Rosh HaChabirah who was
mashpiah the 'Breslov' derech.) This is VERY important to understand. A Rebbe
gets his derech from his Rebbe, or father, all the way back to the Baal SHem
Tov. My Rebbe is a direct descendant of the Tzanzer Rov, who was a talmid of
the Ropshitzer Rov, who was a talmid of the Chozeh of Lublin, Rebbe Mendele
Riminover, and before that of the Rebbe Reb Meileich of Lizensk, who were
talmidim of the Rebbe Reb Ber who was a talmid of the Baal Shem Tov. That is
where my derech comes from. As to why different Rebbes had different daruchim
the reason is as follows: The Tepheres Shlomoh was once asked why it was thast
each of the talmidim of the Chozeh was different and had different customs. He
answered that each one received from his Rebbe according to the level of his
nashama.

>> 2. The Toldos is Kodesh Kadushim. No one can call himself a chasid who haas
>> not learned it. It is a direct source for the Toras HaBaal Shem Tov.
>===> Why? Who are the current followers of the Toldos?

The Toldos is the only sefer that contains what the Baal Shem Tov himself
taught directly. He continually brings what he has heard.

>> 3. Mai Shiloach is learned by few people in the mainstream. There is a small
>> Radzyner chassidus in eretz yisroel, which would learn that as it is their
>> source. It would like the seforim of the Mittler Rebbe of Lubavitch. Very few
>> outside of Lubavitch would learn them. In the same way few chassidim learn Mai
>> HaShloach. (On the other hand Toldos like Tanya is a major classic that any
>> Jew who wants to call himself a chasid should learn.)
>===> What *defines* Toldos as a "major classic" as opposed to the works of
>Mai Shiloach or is this another popoularity contest?

I think from the above the answer is obvious.

-- 
Moshe Shulman mshulman@ix.netcom.com    718-436-7705
http://www.pobox.com/~chassidus         Chassidus Website

>people in our shitah this would not happen. Sadly we find that after having
>Mesiras Nefesh for someone who then goes on to a non Lubavitcher Yeshiva at
>times they come back with the kind of hatred for Chassidus that exists in
>certain Litvahser circles. Some years ago on Baal Teshuva Yeshiva became

I have spoken to some ex-Lubav BT's and they seem to indicate that their
Lubavitcher (ex-)friends treated them very badly when they left. I certainly
don't think it is fair to 'hate' a place that was good to you, but if you are
mistreated by people there I can understand it.

-- 
Moshe Shulman mshulman@ix.netcom.com    718-436-7705
http://www.pobox.com/~chassidus         Chassidus Website

>On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Moshe Shulman wrote:
>> Yosef, let me state this in the strongest terms. You are a Litvak with a
>> Chabad background, where to do you get the chutzpah to tell me who is a
>If there is anything I react to with more negativity that being lectured
>at from a high perch, it is being pigeonholed. Sorry, I do not fit neatly
>into the box in which you have placed me.

Please inform me (and those here) from which Rebbes you have been a mikabal of
chassidus?

>> non-Chabad Chassid, what OUR customs are about? Shirayim has 0 to do
>Anyone can read, B"H.

Except that chassidus is not learned from a sefer. (See below.)

>> with dveykus. According to our Rebbes dveykus means that in mochshovah,
>You are, once more, asserting without sources. You were finally, posei'ach

My sources are my Rebbes. :) At the moment there are no seforim. (You forget
that the Baal Shem Tov wrote no seforim. Chassidus was meant to be transmitted
from Rebbe to Chasid.)

>a pesach to me by conceding that Piasceszne is relevant to bona fide
>Chassidus. Let me state that were there a R' Klonymus Kalmish among us
>today, I would run to him.

:) I doubt it. You would find that he did not agree with you, and you wouldn't
find fault with him. The Rebbe Reb Bunim said, 'There is a Midrash that
teaches that Adam HaRishon was shown each generation and it's leaders. He
asked, why was it that the generation was shown first and THEN the leaders.
The reason is that the leaders were sent their according to the level of the
generation. Had he seen the leaders BEFORE the generation, he would have had
chalishas hadaas. But when he saw the generation first, and then the leaders,
he realized that they fit the generation.' Rebbe Shlomoh Karliner and the
Tzanzer Rov both have Torahs dealing with the false idea that one can live in
a time where it is not possible for him to become a chasid.

>(It is ironic, however, that the two outstanding representatives of
>Chassidus that you have found are the Piascezner - who has no following
>today, not unlike R' Tzadok; and Alexander, who are, today, a very small
>Chassidus.)

:) I think this answer will be found if you read what I wrote to Zvi.

>Well, in fact, my understanding of shirayiim and the tisch in general is
>grounded, as was clarified in "Forks" - in two sources: R' Rivkin in
>Ashkavta d'Rebbe - who, while a Lubavitcher himself, had ample interaction
>in Torah Vo'Da'as with what you call "mainstream" Chassidim - and, the
>Piascezner. Please see "Mavo Ha'She'arim" Chp. 8. While the specific
>aspect of the tisch known as shirayim is not described there explicitly -
>it is evident what the tisch is meant to serve - dveykus with Hashem vias
>the Rebbe.

As YOU know MHS does not mention sharayim at all. And I do not think that a
Lubavitcher hearing second (third) hand about Chasidisher customs while being
in a LITVISHER Yeshiva, quite rates. My source is from my Rebbe (Zakan
HaAdmorim) who heard from his father who led one of the largest Chassidic
groups in Galitzia. Now I have two seforim about inyanim dealing with
tzaddikim: 1. Yesod Olom. Written by a Viznitzer Chasid and with haskomos from
the following Rebbes: Viznitz Bnei Brak, Strepkov (Z'L), Ger (Z'L), Zitchka,
lelov (Z'L), Rachmastrivka-EY. 2. E'Bo Sidbok by Toldos Aharon. In both
sources there is a discussion of Sharyaim. NOT ONE mentions your reason. (BTW
the Shinover Rov is quoted and gives a similar reason to the one I have a
masorah for.) (BTW there is a LOT of discussion about the inyan of achilas
tzaddikim in many seforim. It's not a 'secret'.)

>The truth is, I find shirayim far more reasonable based on my
>understanding than the one you propose.

That's nice. Tell me which Rebbe said that.

>I would like to add, that if tischen looked like the one described by
>RKKS, you'd have a lot more Chassidim nowadays.

What is RKKS? (BTW there is no problem with numbers. Baruch HaShem our Beis
Midrash which is around ten years old is too small.)

-- 
Moshe Shulman mshulman@ix.netcom.com    718-436-7705
http://www.pobox.com/~chassidus         Chassidus Website

>On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Moshe Shulman wrote:
>> Yosef, let me state this in the strongest terms. You are a Litvak with a
>> Chabad background, where to do you get the chutzpah to tell me who is a
>> non-Chabad Chassid, what OUR customs are about? Shirayim has 0 to do with
>> dveykus.
>Woah!!!!!!!!!!! What happened to the basic respect owed to our average
>poster let alone one of our most knowledgeable posters. This(as well as
>other statements made in other posts) doesn't just
>violate the wishy washy sometimes applied subjective laws of darchei Noam,
>this is outright lack of kavod hatorah. We have heard a lot from Moshe
>Shulman and a lot of it has been very informative but his great predjudice
>and obvious dislike for lubavich has begun to interfere with the

It is NOT my intention to show diserespect for anyone, but to correct some of
the errors being made here. I believe I am the ONLY non-Chabad chasid here, so
I think I have a right to correct those who make claims as to what are the
common beliefs and customs of non-Chabad Chassidim. (I also have relatives in
many other non-Chabad groups, so I am quite familiar about what Chassidim do
and believe that is NOT found in seforim.)

-- 
Moshe Shulman mshulman@ix.netcom.com    718-436-7705
http://www.pobox.com/~chassidus         Chassidus Website

>> I would agree that some of the hashkofos might not agree with what you have
>> learned. I would STRONGLY suggest a small sefer that just came out called
>> 'Derech HaChassidus.' It comes from some Alexander Chassidim, and even though
>> it is strongly biased to Pershischa Chassidus, the ideas there are common in
>> all chassidim. (i.e. non-Chabad.)
>Thanks for the prompt reply. I was just in the seforim stores in Yerushalayim.
>No
>one has heard of the above sefer. Who sells it?

Call R. Simcha Bunim Makover (?) 02-5328064 or in Bnei Brak R. Eliezer
Yitzchok Danziger 03-6190054. That's what it says inside the sefer.

>> What things specifically do you consider
>> 'different' in hashkofos?

These are common questions I will try and answer them all at once. Tomorrow my
Rebbe's great grandson is getting married to the daughter of the Alexander
Rebbe, so I will be busy. It might take some time to get all the answers
together for you.


I cannot comment on Lubavtich beliefs, as I don't share them.

>that what the rebbe eats becomes kodshim, that 770 is the beis hamikdash, that
>A more specific example regarding Lubavtish. A number of years ago  I was
>having a
>friendly talk in the entrance way of 770 with a chasid who was an old
>acquaintance.
>He tried persuading me of the virtues of being a lubavtisher. When I said it
>was not
>for me he said, "You are an apikorus. In each generation that is one manhig who
>is
>the prime tzinur to HaKodosh Baruch Hu. Everyone know that the Rebbe is that
>Tzinur.
>You don't want to have the best connection to G-d but are satisfied by a minor
>connection. You are an apikorus." He was serious and I was turned off.

I guess I am in the same type of apikorus as you. I guess we can discuss this
in the next world. RH 17 :)

BTW this is NOT Chassidus. I believe it was said by either Rebbe Mechela of
Zlotchov or Rebbe Pinchas of Koretz that just like Moshe divided up the
leaders into leaders of 50, 100 etc, so there are tzaddikim with larger or
smaller followings. Each chasid has to be by that Rebbe who relates to his
nashama or else he will not reach his goal.

There is also an interesting story about the Rebbe Rev Zushya. There had been
a man who used to put money into his talis batel from time to time and he was
blessed with a good parnasa. One time he came to Anapoli and the Rebbe Reb
Zushya was not there. When he inquired he was told that he went to Mezritch to
his Rebbe. This guy was not fool. He though, if I give the talmid money I get
this wealthy how wealthy will I get if I give his Rebbe? So from then on he
started giving money to the Rebbe Reb Ber, but his wealth started to
disappear. Soon he was getting quite poor. He then went to Anapoli to ask what
happened. He told the story and the Rebbe Reb Zushya said to him, 'When you
gave me money and you weren't careful about it HaShem rewarded you and didn't
look so carefully at you. But when you started to consider that my Rebbe was
greater and made cheshbonos, then HaShem started making a cheshbon with you.'

I also heard from my Rebbe, from his father. Once a chasid was saying things
about another Rebbe and said he was nothing. The Rov Z'L said to him, 'If you
say his Rebbe is nothing and your Rebbe is so much more then him, what have
you accomplished? A thousand times nothing is still nothing. But if you
acknowledge that his Rebbe is a great tzaddik and that yours is just greater
then you have said something.'

-- 
Moshe Shulman mshulman@ix.netcom.com    718-436-7705
http://www.pobox.com/~chassidus         Chassidus Website

>On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Moshe Shulman wrote:
>> 1. Have you read the whole Torah? What was it about? 2. If he was opposed to
>Yes. I am not quoting out of context.

Just misinterpreting.

>> 'kiruv' could you explain how come we have mikibal stories of Moshe (?)
>> Deutch who was a BT from Germany who became a Tzanzer Chasid. (I have
>> heard a number of interesting stories about him.) 3. If you red
>If they come on their own, igla'ei milsa that they are not Erev Rav.

The exact opposite. If we say that one who comes shows they are not from the
erev rav, then kol v'chomar one who is already there.

>> will tell you why there is at best limited kiruv efforts. (Belz has in
>I am interested in a theological explanation with mareh mekomos, yes
>please.

Let me give you one example:

I heard from my Rebbe's son during one of his shiurim in Chumash Rashi he used
to give. The posik says, 'es ha nashamaos asher oso b'churan' Rashi say that
Avrham was m'gayer the men and Sarah was m'gayer the women. To which he
commented not like those who send people out where the boys are m'kariv women.

There is more I have heard, but I am afraid that this could get out of hand.

-- 
Moshe Shulman mshulman@ix.netcom.com    718-436-7705
http://www.pobox.com/~chassidus         Chassidus Website

>After my initial shock at RMS's discrediting of R' Tzadok wore off, I
>first went to Shul this morning - and came back - armed with quotes from
>the Ma'or va'Shemesh that are very much in line with R' Tzadok's
>definition of the role of a "Nefesh Kolleles" aka "Tzaddik." But, then it

Let me clarify, I do not neccessarily disagree with what he says. Especially
since the Tzikos HaTzaddik doesn't agree with what you are trying to say (and
your BIL seems to disagree with your interpretation of the other source.) My
point was that you bring up a source that is not m'kabal.

>I think I would like to reiterate and expand RDE's response to the
>dismissal of R' Tzadok. It would seem from RMS's perspective - and perhaps
>he represents larger segements of Chassidism - that we Misnagdim who felt
>we had stumbled onto the "Ma'or" of Chassidus - in R' Tzadok, the
>Izhbitzer, the Piacaszner, the Slonimer, perhaps even Sefas Emes - from
>RMS's perpsective, have really discovered nothing at all. With the
>possible exception of the Sefas Emes, it would seem that "real" Chassidus
>can only be defined as those that have a *large* following today: Belz,
>Vizhnitz, Satmar, Zanz-Klausenberg, perhaps Gur - and definitely not
>Lubavitch.

Since you HAVE read Muvi HaShiurim chapter 8 let me quote what he says:

'If one desires to become a chasid by learning seforim and to understand with
his mind alone what is chassidus, and not make himself, his body and senses,
his nefesh, riach, and nashamah to be a chasid, then he has not touched the
corner of chassidus. Also if he doesn't go to a Rebbe ... he is no chasid.'
(Bottom paragraph p. 39)

'The main points of Chassidus are not found in a sefer but in the chasidim
themselves.' (Third line down from page 43.)

-- 
Moshe Shulman mshulman@ix.netcom.com    718-436-7705
http://www.pobox.com/~chassidus         Chassidus Website

>In a message dated 12/29/98 6:41:07 PM EST, mshulman@ix.netcom.com writes:
>> Yes I do know that. This appeared in Beis Moshiach, which I was told
>reflects
>>  the view of a not insignificant number of people in CH.
>Please supply exact volume number and page, I can't beleive that anyone wrote
>to daven to a picture of the Rebbe R"L.

Number 26 p. 55. I also saw a number of issues on the internet where stories
of people praying to the L. Rebbe's picture (that he should hear and help
them) are related.

-- 
Moshe Shulman mshulman@ix.netcom.com    718-436-7705
http://www.pobox.com/~chassidus         Chassidus Website

On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 Yzkd@aol.com wrote:

> See S"O Horav Hil. Ribis 79, Veod.
> 

I saw.

Nisht ken raya - at least not muchrachas.

The SOH"R is discussing a pshuto k'mashma'o case of tinok she'nishba - a
ben mummeres that grew up bein ha'nochrim and was not familiar with our
das (on this list I should probably say our Aishdas!).

In fact, in se'if 80 the SOH"R entertains the possibility that even a ben
mummeres does not have a special status by virtue of being a tinok
she'nishba, and "ve'asur l'hachayoso" (in the end he paskens that since
halva'ah b'ribis is an issue d'orysa, you must be machmir).

This may well not pertain at all to a frei Jew who heard of our dasos.
Again, that such individuals have special status, that I am aware of, is
only from the Chazon Ish and Chofetz Chaim.

Perhaps you meant Tanya perek 32?

Let me reiterate, since obviously some people are getting the
misconceptions that I am:

1. Pro-Lubavitch.
2. In favor of branding freier Yidden as Erev Rav.
3. Against granting them special status as Tinokos sh'Nishbu.

that in reality I am:

1. Against the theological position manifested publicly by Lubavitch.
2. Against branding any Jews as Erev Rav.
3. In favor of regarding non-Orthodox Jews as Erev Rav.

I am trying, however, to discuss issues from a dispassionate, analytic
perspective' lilmod u'lelamed.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Just saw tonight:

R' Yehoshua of Neshchiz, in his old age, was no longer able to eat plain
matzo, so he ate gebrokts. Nevertheless, he distributed shirayim from the
gebrokts to all those assembled - despite the fact that they, of course,
were makpid on gebrokts (Ta'amei HaMinhagim p. 221).

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

For an excellent article on the whole issue of lying by Yaakov, see:
Avi Mori Zatsal, R. Norman E. Frimer, "A Midrash on Morality, or When is
a Lie Permissible," Tradition 13:4 and 14:1 (Spring-Summer 1973), pp.
23-34-reprinted in R. Norman E. Frimer, A Jewish Quest for Religious
Meaning (Hoboken, New Jersey: Ktav Publishing Company, 1993), pp.
95-106. We also have many references to scholars/poskim who have dealt
with lying in Halakha in our Tradition article: Aryeh A. Frimer and Dov
I. Frimer, Tradition, 32:2, pp. 5-118 (Spring 1998), see especially
appendix part 6.

"As for sending kids on. How many NCSYers go to Chabad Yeshivas. I think we
might be an bit more opened minded than they are ?
Dovid Eliezrie"

     Having had the zchus of being involved in NCSY ny whole life - the
answer is plenty!
Moshe Luchins

<<
Are Rabbi Teitz's opinions one and the same with those of J.E.C. and its
board members (if any) or is the board and Rabbi Teitz one and the same?

Should I conclude that all Jewish Elizabethans affiliated with J.E.C. (Hy-nu
hach?) agree with Rabbi Teitz's opinions or have authorized him to speak on
their behalf?

Same question applies to parents of students and to teachers at J.E.C.
>>

To answer all the questions simultaneously: my trailer is there as per the
suggestion of a member of our group, who suggested that those among us who
have rabbinic positions identify themselves as such.  Following the lead of
RYGB, I include my pertinent information after my name.

As with RYGB (I assume), my opinions are mine alone, and do not represent
anyone else's.  Unlike other Orthodox groups, I do not dispense my opinion
with the mandate that my congregants or anyone else for that matter ( except
my children, but that's another matter :) follow them.  Of course, if someone
was to ask me my halachic opinion, then they might be obligated to follow my
decision, but that too, is a different matter.

Eliyahu Teitz
Jewish Educational Center
Elizabeth, NJ

In a message dated 99-01-03 13:52:46 EST, C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

>  The Netziv (50:7) writes that although the servents of Pharoah escorted
>  Ya'akov's body to burial only out of respect for Yosef's position, not out 
> of
>  kavod hameis, this was still a kiyum of gemilus chessed, as with all other
>  mitzvos done shelo lishma.  A few problems: (1) regarding tzedakah it is
>  mashma BB daf 10b that there is no kiyum for an akum if done she'lo lishma,
>  e.g. haomer sela zu l'tzedaka al minas sheyechye b'ni is a kiyum only for a
>  yisrael.

Adifa Minei Havoh Lei Lhakshos, the Gemroh says that Chesed L'umim *Chatos* it
is a sin.
2 Nekudos on this issue. 1) according to Tos. Psochim 8b brought in the Tos.
Y"T on Ovos 1:3, that even by Yid can be a Toihea (regrets) perhaps by a B"N
there is possibility of Lishmo, (especially if they have Mitzvoh of Tzedakah
U'Kdilhalon), the Gemoroh is talking Al Pi Rov. 2) perhaps it is considered a
sin only after HKB"H removed from them the Sechar for 7 Mitzvahs B"K 38a.

 (2) There is a difference between lishma and kavanah.  Even if a
>  mitzva counts shelo lishma, still mitzvos tzrichos kavanah.

2 Nekudos on this as well, 1) see S"O Horav O"C 475:28, that eating Matzoh
since one has Hano'oh lack of Kavanah is not the same as by for example Shofar
where it means nothing, if so when one does Chesed it too is obvious, so lack
of Kavanah would not invalidate the Mitzvoh. 2) see Rashi Dvorim 24:19 from
the Sifri that when one drops something and a poor person picks up he gets
Sechar, perhaps this could be different by B"N.

> (3) Is there any mitzva for a B"N to do gemilus chessed? 

WRT Tzedakah Machlokes Horishonim (see lengthy discussion in Likutei Sichos
Vol. 5 Parshas Vayishlach (1)), the Ran (Sanhedrin 56b) holds they are
obligated, Rashi (ibid D"H Dinei Knosos) holds they are not obligated (see
MaHaRShA), according to the Rambam (Mlochim 10:10) they are not obligated (but
perhaps (Bdochak) before M"T were), according to Ramban may be included in
Dinin.

> Does a B"N need kavanah to fufill a mitzva?  

See Rambam Hil. Mlochim 8:11

>  (Perhaps the mitzva of GM"Ch is different as Chovos HaLevavos writes all 
> good
>  is ultimately motivated by personal gain - thus having personal benefit in
>  mind is not really a shelo lishma in this case.)
>  

But WRT B"N it says that *Chesed* Lumim is *Chatas*

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

<<
 Furthermore, if he had such a
"corrupt" character, maybe we might ask how he spent so much time in yeshiva
and became/remained "corrupt"? How did he sit before the eyes of so many
roshei yeshiva and they made no impact upon him? Are they blameless?
>>

Are Roshei Yeshiva blameless in a situation such as the meticulous yeshiva
bachur.  I would think so.  Being a parent I eventually realized (my kids have
been knocking this lesson into my head) that I can set an example for how I
want my children to act, I can explain and discuss with them that which I
expect and hope of them.  But in the end, they must choose for themselves
which path they will walk and how they will run their lives.  If they choose a
way that I do not approve of, that does not make me a bad parent.  I set
everything up for them.  But they are human and they have bechira chofshis.
And they will be rewarded according to their choosing the correct path.  To
blame the parents is to say that the children get no punishment for choosing
wrong, and then also no reward for choosing right.  Our tradition teaches us
otherwise.

To put anyone else to a more rigorous standard is unfair and against our
mesora.

PS (My oldest is only 8 years old...I shudder to think what he and his
siblings have yet to teach me about parenting! )

Eliyahu Teitz
Jewish Educational Center
Elizabeth, NJ

<<
The sefer Hadras Kodesh (Nasoider Rov quoting the Chasam Sofer) brings that
the talmidim of Rabbenu Yonah held that oraz requires a mazonos as it is a
food that fills one up, and that this applies to all such foods. This is also
the opinion of the Rosh. A similar logic applies to potatoes, and even though
not all hold from this sevorah it is enough to bring a sufik of either mazonos
or adamah.
>>

While one might argue that all grains should be m'zonos, I do not understand
how this is stretched to potatoes.  If I eat enough meat, I would also be
full.  Does that make the b'racha on steak now m'zonos?  I fail to see the
logic here.

Eliyahu Teitz
Jewish Educational Center
Elizabeth, NJ

In a message dated 1/3/99 10:21:07 PM EST, mshulman@ix.netcom.com writes:

>  But if you
>  acknowledge that his Rebbe is a great tzaddik and that yours is just
greater
                                                                              
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  then you have said something.'

You said it all !!

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 1/3/99 10:21:45 PM EST, mshulman@ix.netcom.com writes:

> There is more I have heard, but I am afraid that this could get out of hand.
>  
As a Chosid you surely Remember your own words "my Rebbe is greater!" (and he
knew the Rashi also, I think that I wouldn't be wrong if I said that every one
agreed that he was a Gaon Otzum)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

*********************


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