Avodah Mailing List

Volume 02 : Number 135

Friday, January 22 1999

• [none]
• Re: Yeshivas Shem & Eyver
• Re: Nefesh haChayim-1
• Sheim vo'eiver
• Hatam Sofer and Nusah ha-Tefillah
• "Yechi" goes on
• Re: Avodah V2 #134
• Re: Avodah V2 #134
• edah- modern orthodox
• Re: edah- modern orthodox
• Re: edah- modern orthodox
• Sv: Avodah V2 #134

>everything will work out ok; or that as a Maamin he believes 
>everything will work out ok, but that he does not know for certain.
	A maamin does  NOT  believe everything will work out OK from his human
point of view,  but that a) Hashem determines how it  w i l l  work out
and b) it is ultimately good from Hashem's point of view.

Gershon
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<<
d. Were texts actually used? If so- which ones, and in which 
form?
>>

Without getting inolved in the other questions, about existence of such an
institution, one could say that it did exist and that they did not learn what
we call Torah.  The Torah records the existence of certain texts that we do
not presently have.  The primary example is "Sefer Milchamos HaShem" which
could have been some sort of mussar sefer detailing the greatness of HaShem as
seen through actions throughout the ages that were perceived as the Hand of
HaShem.  I would imagine that the first such story recorded would have been
the Mabul.

Eliyahu Teitz
Jewish Educational Center
Elizabeth, NJ

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Isaiah Beilin wrote:

>    helped crystallize this for me. Let me point out that the picture 
>    R. JJ Baker paints is incomplete. He is stressing the sections in 
>    the NH regarding learning. I am including the sections on tefilah. 

I do not wish to engage in great polemics, but I share RJJB's sentiment
that more is gained by studying and understanding the differences than by
papering them over. I feel the "Achdus" is only when we realize that our
viewpoints are different, yet in the spirit of the end of Mesechta
Ta'anis, respect others' pathways.

Furthermore, unless we can understand how different derachim differ from
ours, we lack the proper appreaciation of how to learn from them and apply
tthose "points of light" that can be meaningful to us within our different
frameworks.

>    This has to be the highest form of service to the Almighty. This is

I am surprised that no one brought this up, but of course Tefila is
considered by Misnagdim a distant second to TT - "ozvim chayei olam etc."
See NhC 4:26 at length.

>    of this. Do you think that anything can be higher than walking with G-d 
>    and he with you? Do you think the NH can disagree? What do you think?

Yes. Of course there is something higher than walking with G-d - Chassidim
agree on this as well: "Gedola Hachnosas Orchim yoser mei'Kabbolas Pnei
Shechina!"


YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:27:20 +0200 (IST)
From: Claude Schochet <schochet@techunix.technion.ac.il>
Subject: Shem v'Ever


Did the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever really exist?

 If so, then I have some questions about it.<<

I am no "boki" on the midrashim re: Sheim vo'eiver, however as something of a 
historian let me say that as a Ma'amin I have NO DOUBT that there was a Yeshiva 
of Sheim vo'Eiver, as a historian I have STRONG doubts that it resembles 
anything like a contemporary Yeshiva.

It is very difficult to visualize the lifestyle of 3500 years ago, at least on a
detail level.   Undboutedly the function of YSvA was to promote a connection 
with the Ribbono shel Olam and to learn whatever Torah wisdom was available 
before Matan Torah.  I really doubt if they had a night seder or a fund raiser. 
They were probably  shepherds (shpeherds have more free time than do farmers) 
who spent that free time meditating on Hashem and the universe and discussing 
things, also answering questions from people like Rivko (perhaps a form of an 
oracle).

I think the term Yeshiva might be anachronistic and assigned by Chazal to 
describe what might be a "proto-Yeshiva".

Regards,
Rich Wolpoe  

With all due respect to R. Mechy Frankel, and notwithstanding his
citation to the well-known teshuvah of the Hatam Sofer, there exists a
sefer detailing the minhagim of the Hatam Sofer.  Some time has passed
since I last consulted it, but I remember distinctly that it notes that
R. Moshe Sofer did use nusah sefarad in his private tefillah though not
while serving as shali'ah tzibbur.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

For what it's worth and for the information of readers, yesterday I met a
student at Rutgers University (New Brunswick, New Jersey) who told me that
there are two minyanim on campus.  He volunteered that he usually davened at
the Chabad minyan rather than the Hillel minyan. I inquired whether they
recite "Yechi" after davening and he answered in the affirmative, adding
calmly that "they" (I guess that means Chabadniks and perhaps others) say
it, he does not.

Cut up onions is a good topic . . . . .

Noach Witty

<<
Do you think that anything can be higher than walking with G-d and he with
you?
>>

Maharal has a piece on this exact idea where he says that indeed there is a
higher level, bitul, where one negates his very existence to the glory of
HaShem.  He brings this in a discussion of Yir'as haRomemus (as opposed to
yir'as onesh).

Eliyahu Teitz
Jewish Educational Center
Elizabeth, NJ

>
>Maharal has a piece on this exact idea where he says that indeed there is a
>higher level, bitul, where one negates his very existence to the glory of
>HaShem.  He brings this in a discussion of Yir'as haRomemus (as opposed to
>yir'as onesh).
>

  Which is what kalos nefesh means. We merge with the source. I used the
  term walking, but the real term is "kalos nefesh"

if much can be learned about the hashkafa of  a movement by the topics at
there conventions,  please see the program of 'edah'  [the left end of MO
(right end of Conservative?)] at www.edah.org

Saul Newman writes:
>if much can be learned about the hashkafa of  a movement by the topics at
>there conventions,  please see the program of 'edah'  [the left end of MO
>(right end of Conservative?)] at www.edah.org

I am curious.
1.  How would you define "the left end of MO"?
2.  What is it about "edah" that causes you to believe it is at the left
end of MO?
3.  Although I have seen Edah's website, could you identify what it is
about their program as stated at their website that fits into your answer
for Q. #2.

Since you suggested with your parenthetical question that the left end of
MO is at the right end of Conservative Judaism, are you suggesting that
that which is at the left end of MO is not really within the tent of
Orthodox Judaism.  Or, are you suggesting that that which is at the far
right end of Conservative Judaism, is really Orthodoxy?

BTW, have you ever heard Rabbi Berman speak, teach, give a dvar torah, etc?

Thanks.

//Avi
Avram Sacks
Chicago

In a message dated 1/21/99 1:35:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org writes:

<< 
 if much can be learned about the hashkafa of  a movement by the topics at
 there conventions,  please see the program of 'edah'  [the left end of MO
 (right end of Conservative?)] at www.edah.org
 
  >>
I couldn't agree more that you can learn much about people by the topics they
discuss. While I have no opinion at this point about edah as an organization,
the toipcs listed are certainly worth  an intellectually honest discussion.

I also wonder how you define the left end. On a recent trip from Israel I had
the occasion to sit in Ben Gurion airport for more than a few hours due to a
flight delay. A polltaker was doing a multipage survey to help the tourist
industry. I answered his questions without incident until we got to the
demographic information. I was asked to characterize myself as stricrtly
orthodox, orthodox, conservative.....  I responded "I like to think that I try
to be strictly orthodox".  Charedi???(obviously my dockers and a colored shirt
didn't fit the polltaker's definition of charedi). Yes- I humor myself that I
try to shake at the word of hashem.

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

Thank you for letting me have a trial period of Avodah. Sorry, but it is too advanced for me. Please take my name of the mailing list.

Thanks
Poul Ezra
Denmark

*********************


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