Avodah Mailing List

Volume 02 : Number 188

Sunday, March 14 1999

• MMG"H
• Maharal & R. Zadok
• Re: response to YGB
• re: science and history
• Re: machshava and the yeshiva world
• Re: ma'ariv reshus/chovah
• mekoros on the samchut of chazal
• Scope of lo tasur
• nusach ari siddurim
• Chazal's authority and Picking fights (A bit long)
• Humor Alert!!
• Chazal and "Ruach HaKodesh": Tachlis
• Re: Chazal's authority and Picking fights (A bit long)
• Einstein and Emuna (;-)
• Fw: Don't open "WIN A HOLIDAY" (fwd)
• Talk On R. Tzaddok HaKoehn
• Who, me?
• YT Sehini - Machshovo
• Yom Tov Sheini

People have been asking me to explain my new .signature file. Good, that
means it works.

MMGH is a daily learning program, designed to take roughly as long as
daf yomi. The goal is to be yotzei sh'lish bimikra, bimishnah and big'marah
(thus the MMG part of the name) according to the Rambam (T"T 1:11-12),
so chumash, aruch hashulchan and an amud are learned daily.

In addition, to be yotzei ahavas Hashem, again according to the Rambam, as
well as to round out our knowledge of topics underaddressed in today's
yeshivos, either navi, the haftorah or hashkafah (which provides the H)
depending upon the day of the week.

The program has the advantages of being pretty well rounded and yet provides a
challenging minimum amount of learning, pushing you to learn a significant
amount a day. (If I do say so myself.)

For more info (and calendars for March and April) see www.aishdas.org/mmgh.html

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287      MMG"H for 11-Mar-99: Chamishi, Vayakhel-Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                     A"H O"Ch 303:4-10
http://www.aishdas.org                                Eruvin 48a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.     Kuzari I 5-8

> 
> (3) You ask what means I have to appreciate Y"T Sheni.  Do you think R' Chaim
> Brisker appreciated Y"T Sheni less than you because he didn't read R" TZaddok
> or MaHARaL???
> 
R. Aaron Soloveitchik in his book demonstrates how secular studies can increase
ones appreciation of hashem.
He then asks the same question - does that mean that R. Chaim had less appreciation
because he didn't study these subjects?

Basically he answers that in theory one doesn't need any of these tools. be it Maharal,
secular studies haskafa etc. (not equating them -)). However, for those of us not
on their level these tools do help us appreciate Torah in general and by extension
YT sheni in particular.

kol tuv,
Eli Turkel

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:
> 
> (2) If this notion of ruach hakodeh and machshava/avodah is so dogmatically
> significant why was it ignored by the likes of R' Chaim, R' Baruch Ber, the
> Minchas Chinuch, etc.  If not for the introduction of mussar to yeshivos in
> the 19th century we would have a pure model of gemara-only, which existed in
> Volozhin despite R' Chaim Volozhiner writing NEfesh HaChaim.  Your kashe re:
> what role do I see machshava playing is not on me, but on the whole history of
> yeshivos from Volozhin to present, where sifrei machshava are given scant
> attention. 

Can you please explain your position. Do you believe there is no benifit
in trying to understand and think about the mitzvos besides for the intent
to fulfill them. Are we not supposed to think about why we eat matzah on
pesach, why muktzah takes effect bein hashamashos and not some other time.
Is it not part of our avodas Hashem to think about HAshem and how he
relates to the world. Isn't aggadata and medrashim all about telling us
how the world really works, the emes world, the spiritual world. How is
this knowledge not part of our avodah on earth. We must understand as much
as we can by reading the works of chazal and later gedolim who did
understand these things. Even if we don't fully get it now, who knows that
it won't help us understand things in the future or even in The next
world. The way I understand you now is that you admit chazal knew of
greater and loftier worlds, (something I'm not sure other posters even
admit to) but since I can't get it and it makes no nafka
minah to fulfilling my requirement to do mitzvos, why should I try to
learn it. Is this right, please elaborate. 
Elie Ginsparg

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, David Glasner wrote:

> Herewith some excerpts:
>

The Dor Revi'i is fascinating, but using him as a source is somehat
disingenuous. He was engaged in a polemic, and is writing as such, and in
no way can be construed to represent an objective dispassionate analysis -
not to mention, that you are pitting the DR against Rishonim, but that is
your perogative.

(I do not disagree with much of what the DR is saying - in context.
Methinks he would be displeased by his great grandson's use of his words
to reach the conclusion in the paragraph below)

The net result, however, is the same, immaterial of the source. There is a
gaping divide between our respective attitudes vis-a-vis Chazal which,
while in practice leads to relatively minor nafka minos, as we both count
ourselves as practicing observant Jews, in theology is irreconcilable.

> I don't disagree, and I don't recite a b'racha before listening to a
> Beethoven symphony, even the ninth.  All I said was that I could not
> clearly distinguish between the divine inspiration granted to Chazal and
> the divine inspiration that enabled Beethoven to achieve what to me, at
> any rate, seems to have been a miraculous, almost inexplicable, feat. 
> Of course, now that I have reread the Dor Revi'i, I wonder if I was too
> quick to agree with you that Chazal were the beneficiaries of any ruach
> ha-kodesh, but I'll just let that one pass. 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

>>>I can prove to you from sugyos, as well, that Chazal possessed a keener
understanding of ratzon Hashem, and knowledge of the olamos elyonim which
makes their thought process higher and holier<<<

And as I already wrote, ain hachi name, but that is irrelevant to the halachic
process.  You still have no reference in Shas to a din being correct because
of the tikunim that are accomplished in olamos, is there?

>>>Again, I do not mean Sanhedrin<<<

Well what do you mean?  When most of us think of takkanos we think of
enactments of tanaim, no?  

>>>These are excellent questions that I will not answer now lest I offend
some loyal Briskers on the list.<<<

The term Brisker is a red herring here.  The crucial fact is that historically
the contemplation of 'machshava' has not had a place in Brisk, Volozhin, or
the many yeshivos that have followed in their footsteps, e.g. Lakewood, Mir,
Ner Yisrael, YU, etc (just to get a spectrum in).  The writings of gedolei
haAchronim are filled with lomdus and psak not based on
theology/avodah/machshava, but based on logic and rational reasoning
irrespective of tikkun olamos, etc.  In short: in the world of the yeshiva,
your ideas are far from mainstream.

-CB

>>>Question:  At what point in history did Maariv (actually Arbis) turn from
Reshus
to Chov?<<<

See Berachos 28a - the day R' Elazar ben Azarya was appointed nasi.  

-CB

>>>at a minimum - why should we accept Chazal, if not for...<<<

(1)See Kesef Mishne  Mamrim 2:1 - it is based on a consensus of the chachmei
hadoros.  No reference to ruach hakodesh.  (2)With regard to takkanos in Shas,
we have the rule that would require a B"D of greater chochmah uminyan to
overturn a psak - nothing to do with ruach hakodesh. (3)See  Rosh in Sanhedrin
4:6 - the Ba'al HaMaor held that we have no right to disagree with the Geonim.
Rosh writes that of course we have no right to disagree on a whim, but "if one
brings ra'ayos that are accepted, Yiftach b'doro k'Shmuel b'doro".  No concept
of the geonim having ruach hakodeh and being immune from questioning.  (4)See
Ohr Sameiach Yesodei HaTorah ch. 9 - a bas kol can tell us about the piety of
an individual, but plays no role in determining specific halachos.  While
chachamim may have been endowed with spiritual powers, that plays no role in
psak.  

Why did the chachmei hador come to chasimas haTalmud the Kesef Mishne refers
to - was it because they recognized they no longer could reach the ruach
hakodesh of the Tanaim ((5-6)which leaves one to wonder how the Rosh felt that
given adequete rational proof he could argue on geonim despite his prophetic
inferiority, or how the principle of hilchisa kbas'ra'ah works when one takes
into account the spiritual yeridas hadoros - 2 more kashes to YGB) or was it
because they recognized a dimishment of the transmission of mesorah, or
perhaps for any variety of unknown reasons?  Who knows?  What is clear is that
such speculation has never played a role in the realm of limud haTorah or psak
halacha. 

I can't see a way to sustain this debate after considering the sources - ayen
sham.

-CB

RYGB writes:

>I am curious to hear you make the case that Lo Sasur applies to Babylonian
>amoraim.

>The Rambam makes a sinilar statement in his Hakdomo to Mishne Torah -
>buttressing it with the principles underlyingg sugyos of "gezeira
>she'pashta b'kol Yisroel." It is not clear, but I invite others to
>comment, whether he holds Lo Tasur applies to gezeiros and halachos that
>emanate from post-Sanhedrin Chazal that were then collectively accepted by
>the nation.

>Again, however, "arvach arrva tzarich" - seeing that bereft of Sanhedrin
>Lo Tasur does not apply without "nispashta" - at a minimum - why should we
>accept Chazal, if not for...

To my knowledge, Rambam does not explicitly apply "lo tasur" to Hazal.
But the Sefer ha-Hinnukh applies it to the Rav in every dor.  Ayen sham.

A compelling explanation for Rambam's emphasis on the unanimous
acceptance of the Talmud Bavli was Rambam's need to distinguish between
the Amoraim, whom he considered binding, and the Geonim whom he utterly
disregarded.  Lacking any formal classificatory distinctions between the
two groups, Rambam utilized the concept of popular acceptance to elevate
the former and dismiss the latter.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

Technically, all Nusach Sefard siddurim of eastern european origin claim
descent from the ari (and the ari influenced much of what we take to be
Nusach Ashkenaz in its present form as well).  If what one means is Nusach
Chabad siddurim other than Tehillat H. there is Siddur Shaarei HaKollel and
perhaps a few others with the Alter Rebbe's and later Rebbeim's glosses on the
text.  In general, the content is the same.  There is also the all hebrew
version of Tehillat H. which includes Tikkun Chatzos, Haggadah Shel Pesach,
etc. according to the text of the Alter Rebbe.  Interestingly, in none of these
 siddurim are there yotzros, Shir HaKavod, Kah Eli, etc.

Dear Rabbi Bechhofer,

I know something is wrong when I, as yeshivish as that man whose name you
won't mention,  agree wholeheartedly with RDG and disagree with you. :-) 
 It just seems to me that you want to pick a fight with him.  RDG's view
(He should forgive me if I am not summarizing his views properly.)  is
that we are obligated to follow Chazal's legislation and interpretation
because the Torah gives them the authority and jurisdiction to make such
binding decisions for the Jewish people.  (Concerning post-Sanhedrin,
R'Elchonon discusses their authority.)  As far as this goes, ruach
hakodesh is not relevant, certainly not halachically, and not necessarily
even hashkafically.   

While the sages of old possessed this faculty of Ruach HaKodesh, it's not
one which I can identify, nor can RDG except to say that he thinks it's
akin to a form of inspiration Beethoven had when composing the 9th.  The
fact that Melech Malchei HaMelachim HaKadosh Baruch Hu gave them the
legal and constitutional power to extrapolate such drashos and enact such
g'zeiros and takanos is enough for RDG, enough for me, and should provide
enough incentive for any Jew to submit to their authority, regarless of
Ruach HaKodesh considerations.  

>I don't like pretend. Like any red-blooded American, I can't stand
>authority wielded arbitrarily. If I understood YT as pretend, I would be
>completely behind the Reform efforts to abolish it (r"l).


I hope you don't really mean that!  First of all, if Chazal decided that
the days following Yom Tov Rishon should be treated virtually identically
to Yom-Tov Rishon, then that should be enough.  It is not "Pretend".  It
has binding force. (Once again, see R'Elchonon for post-Sanhedrin
issues.)    I think it is dangerous to suggest that you might have
problems submitting to their authority if they don't conform to your high
expectations.  Their authority is not dependent on olamos and sefiros and
Ruach HaKodesh.  


>Without descending into quagmires of accusation and counter accusation,
do
>you understand how many of us find that equation impossible, and why we
>regard that very diminishing of Chazal?

They are not dimished one iota in the halachic sense.  Those who
appreciate the weltanschuung of  Rabbi Soloveichik's Halachic Man, like
the Dor Rvi'i (I assume this after having read the Tradition article)
don't need to know about higher worlds to be impressed by Yiddishkeit. 
For those who do, more power to you.   

Raffy
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

So this jewish guy was eating his passover lunch on a park bench...and
along comes this blind man and sits beside him...so he thought he'd be
neighbourly, and share....and passed him a matzoh...the blind man felt it
all over and turned to him puzzled, and said: Who wrote this nonsense???


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

I see I am being misunderstood. No matter, I will patiently explain again.
I am not questioning that acceptance is the basis of Chazal's authority
over us. The questionis why we should feel compelled to continue this
acceptance. There are more theological and halachic questions involved
here, i.e., if Gezeiros Chazal are similar in kind to a law of the land,
just as there is no kiyum in hiddur law of the land there should be no
kiyum in hiddur mitzva d'rabbanan. V'yesh l'ha'arich.

Anyway, let's talk tachlis (no particular order):

"And it is known that all the words of Chazal althought they possess great
secrets they did not reveal them, and they clothe then in simple words..."
(Kaf HaChaim 124:2 - in explaining the ma'ala of Chazaras HaShatz).

"[The GR"A] added that one must be very careful with all the words of
Chazall, even if the reason they gave no longer applies, for they only
revealed one reason, and concealed many hidden reasons whose secrets are
rooted in Kabbala, of them those that are only revealed to tzenu'in and
chachamim."
(Aliyos Eliyahu p. 40, he'ara 12 and Pe'as HaShulchan 25:32)

"And the Rabbanan of the Mishna and the Amoraim and all their Talmud they
based on the secrets of the Torah."
(Zohar 3:152b)

The Ritva on Asmachta in RH is well known.

"That which Chazal enacted is alll from Hashem, who arrranged that Chazal
would conclude with their intelligence all that is proper to enact, and
that is why we make the brachaon the mitvos that Chazal enacted AKB"V."
(Maharal Be'er HaGolah, Be'er 1)

All these sources courtesy of R Tzuriel in the Beis Yechezkel, who also
compiled lists of the 25 times we find Gillui Eliyahu to Chazal, 6 Gilu'ei
Malach Ha'Maves, 30 "general" miracles, 4 incidents of Techiyas Ha'Meisim,
etc.

V'ka'amur, yesh l'ha'arich.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 raffyd@juno.com wrote:

> Dear Rabbi Bechhofer,
> 
> I know something is wrong when I, as yeshivish as that man whose name you
> won't mention,  agree wholeheartedly with RDG and disagree with you. :-) 
>  It just seems to me that you want to pick a fight with him.  RDG's view
> (He should forgive me if I am not summarizing his views properly.)  is
> that we are obligated to follow Chazal's legislation and interpretation
> because the Torah gives them the authority and jurisdiction to make such
> binding decisions for the Jewish people.  (Concerning post-Sanhedrin,
> R'Elchonon discusses their authority.)  As far as this goes, ruach
> hakodesh is not relevant, certainly not halachically, and not necessarily
> even hashkafically.   
> 
> While the sages of old possessed this faculty of Ruach HaKodesh, it's not
> one which I can identify, nor can RDG except to say that he thinks it's
> akin to a form of inspiration Beethoven had when composing the 9th.  The
> fact that Melech Malchei HaMelachim HaKadosh Baruch Hu gave them the
> legal and constitutional power to extrapolate such drashos and enact such
> g'zeiros and takanos is enough for RDG, enough for me, and should provide
> enough incentive for any Jew to submit to their authority, regarless of
> Ruach HaKodesh considerations.  

This is not about authority, it's about appreciation of greatness and
control. Chazal were great, they were in tune with what's important in
this world. The understood the way things truly worked and transmitted
these ideas to us in concealed form.Theyalso had control of the physical
world (through the spiritual world )in a much greater fashion then any
scientist alive today.  Beetoven played music, there was
no kedusha, no divinity--just talent (call it divine if you want) but this
has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHAZAL.  The fact that you can't Identify it
doesn't mean it's not there and definitly doesn't give you the right to
make a senseless comparison to music writen by a non-jew with no sense of
holiness (at least to my knowledge beetoven wasn't a secret Rebbi :) .
It's through the words of chazal as interpreted by our gedolim that
we can learn more about our relationship with Hashem, understand the true
purpose of this world and begin to scratch the surface of understanding
the greatness behind the mitzvos--this is what chazal give us, I'm not
sure you can get this from Beetovens 9th
Elie Ginsparg

From a Reuters story...

12 MAR 10:48 Menuhin, from child prodigy to elder statesman   
 

     LONDON, March 12 (Reuters) - Yehudi Menuhin, who died in

Berlin on Friday at the age of 82, was a child prodigy who

fulfilled his promise to become one of the world's foremost

violinists before extending his range to teaching and

conducting.

     The gently spoken U.S.-born virtuoso became as renowned for

his devotion to humane causes as for his mastery of the violin.

    The spotlight has been on him since his debut at seven in

1924. By the time he was 13, he had performed in Paris, London

 and New York. In Berlin, his performance prompted physicist

Albert Einstein to exclaim, "Now I know there is a God in

heaven." 
                                                                       
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mark Rayman
Lehman Brothers  - Tech Services Market Data
mrayman@lehman.com
212 526 1336
==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE6C87.790C8140
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
Content-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.990312123523.28936C@orion.neiu.edu>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:54:32 +0200
From: Jacki Leonard <shagyak@internet-zahav.net>
To: C-Maryles@neiu.edu
Subject: Fw: Don't open "WIN A HOLIDAY"



----------
> From: Rberen1@aol.com
> To: 74074.2145@compuserve.com; berenb@usa.net; franmoe@earthlink.net;
jberen@achiva.com; jberen@uclink4.berkeley.edu;
randall@longhairactivities.com; cdyevre@russreyn.com; archq@archq.org;
Dovidle@aol.com; Shagyak@internet-zahav.net; elaine@incmsn.com;
halekoi@ilhawaii.net
> Subject: Fwd: Don't open "WIN A HOLIDAY"
> Date: Friday, March 5, 1999 6:28 AM
> 
>  
> 

------=_NextPart_000_01BE6C87.790C8140
Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822
Content-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.990312123523.28936D@orion.neiu.edu>
Content-Description: 

From: JDodge7951@aol.com
Return-path: <JDodge7951@aol.com>
To: libra@skylink.net, SARBURY@aol.com, Rberen1@aol.com, breas939@earthlink.net,
	danbr@webtv.net, BCH1610@juno.com, JHe6701668@aol.com,
	hollandb@admin.cayuga-cc.edu, jennifer.l.holland@us.pwcglobal.com,
	pkuch@northlink.net, SNOOPIEE@aol.com, klangley@ocis.ocis.net,
	todd langley <tlangley@learned.com>, TVMCCLOY@aol.com,
	shepp234@sympatico.ca, BT600@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Don't open "WIN A HOLIDAY"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:05:03 EST
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part1_920608102_boundary"

--part1_920608102_boundary
Content-ID: <0_920608102@inet_out.mail.aol.com.3>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 

--part1_920608102_boundary
Content-ID: <0_920608102@inet_out.mail.aol.com.4>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: JHe6701668@aol.com
Return-path: <JHe6701668@aol.com>
To: Arundelpub@aol.com, pkuch@northlink.net, MSully33@aol.com,
	jongibson@prodigy.net, Youmaaz@aol.com, BlueNote@thegrid.net,
	CGIBSON@prodigy.net, Rberen1@aol.com, threekrugs@worldnet.att.net,
	ReineT@aol.com, ehedden@arches.uga.edu, JDodge7951@aol.com,
	p.brogoitti@telops.gte.com
Subject: Fwd: Don't open "WIN A HOLIDAY"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:32:08 EST
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part2_920608102_boundary"

--part2_920608102_boundary
Content-ID: <0_920608102@inet_out.mail.aol.com.5>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part2_920608102_boundary
Content-ID: <0_920608102@inet_out.mail.maui.net.6>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

Return-Path: <mbeng@maui.net>
Received: from  rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (rly-yd01.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.1]) by
	air-yd05.mx.aol.com (v56.26) with SMTP; Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:00:08
	-0500
Received: from maui.net (maui.net [207.175.210.2])
	  by rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
	  with ESMTP id NAA18914;
	  Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:00:05 -0500 (EST)
Received: from maui.net (u1-17.kahului.maui.net [207.175.213.88])
          by maui.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA08419;
          Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:59:37 -1000 (HST)
Message-ID: <36DEC96C.AA7B3740@maui.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 07:57:00 -1000
From: Marc <mbeng@maui.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; U)
To: Jaime <jimnkat@hotmail.com>, Julie <pouncerlw@aol.com>,
        Nina <Ninaxqzme@aol.com>, nina <nina_adams@bio-rad.com>,
        Paul Brogoitti <paul0215@gte.net>, Ron Roos <roos@maui.net>,
        Tim Gardner <tgardner@maui.net>, Tim Hedden <JHe6701668@aol.com>,
        Valeria Wenderoth <wender@t-link.net>
Subject: Don't open "WIN A HOLIDAY"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

If you receive an email titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it. It will
>erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out to as many
>people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many
>people know about it. This information was announced yesterday morning
>from Microsoft; please share it with everyone that might access the
>internet.  Once again, pass this along to everyone in your address book
>so that this may be stopped.
>

--part2_920608102_boundary--

--part1_920608102_boundary--

------=_NextPart_000_01BE6C87.790C8140--

FYI:
RINAT TALK 3/14.  Dr. Alan Brill will be speaking at Rinat Sunday night at 8 on 
"Intelllectual Mysticism in the Thought of Rabbi Tzaddok Hakohen of Lublin".

Rinat Yisreol is on West Englewood Avenue, Teaneck, NJ

R. Wolpoe wrote that:
<BTW I think that R. Mechy meant to say that Beethoven was authoritative in
the 
province of music and Einstein in Physics/Astronomy, but neither in the
realm of
Halocho! Am I right?.>

Fraid not. Being aesthetically challenged (my notion of great music is "take
me out to the ball game", and perhaps some early carlebach) i would never
have been mai'eze to offer any opinion concerning Beethoven at all, other
than to note that his sounds like the type of name which sooner or later
gets plastered on some poor town in new jersey.  perhaps you're confusing me
with the Dor Shi'vie who did offer some rather overheated encomiums to the
gentleman - but i can assure you that we don't look anything alike.  

As for the other stuff, I in fact don't think of AE as "authoritative" since
that's not the way the biz works. I don't actually "believe" anyone at face
value, since at some fundamental level one is trained - or perhaps just
naturally inclined as part of the self selection which brings one to pursue
these vocations, to question everything and anybody.  Though it works out
only rarely, it's kind of a feather in one's cap to "knock off" a
proposition by an odom godole - i'm working on something like that and will
be ecstatic if it holds up, but consider how wildly different such an
attitude is from the notion of respect for authority in a religious context
where authority usually implies acceptance and the notion of ecstasy at
"getting" a godole is the aspiration only of risho'im. 

However, I am confident that we are in complete agreement on the lack of
halochic samchus of either AE or LB.

Mechy Frankel				michael.frankel@dtra.mil

R. Chaim:>>(3) You ask what means I have to appreciate Y"T Sheni.  Do you think 
R' Chaim Brisker appreciated Y"T Sheni less than you because he didn't read R" 
TZaddok or MaHARaL???<<

I heard a Maase (from R. Joel Stern) re: a talmid and a Godol.  Many of you 
might be able to identify the Gadol, but I wasn't told his name.

A yeshiva stuendt said re: said Gadol: "How am I different from that Gadol.  
When he eats an apple he makes a Borei Pri Ho'etz. When I eat an apple I say 
Borei Pri Ho'etz?

The reply was:  "The Gadol eats the apple in order to make the brocho, you make 
the brocho in order to eat the apple".

IOW, same action, different attitude.

Rich Wolpoe 

Interesting (to me) was the philosophy behind yom tov sheini shel galiyos
given in Shulchan Aruch haRav.

The kedushah of Pesach is lima'alah min hazman. HKB"H provided us a connection
to that kedushah on a particular day, the 15th of Nissan. Y"T sheini is only
a Rabbinic connection -- but still a connection to the very same kedushah,

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 14-Mar-99: Cohen, Vayikra
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 303:25-31
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Eruvin 49b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Shmuel-II 15

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]