Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 010

Monday, March 29 1999

• Subservience:Alternatives
• Re: shoftim and melech
• Re: bittul takkanos
• Re: Seu'dah Shelishit Sources
• Re: Seu'dah Shelishit Sources
• Women's Prayer Groups
• Hashkofo: Clarification
• Re: More haughtiness from the academy

I recently came across a discussion in the *Sichos HaMusar* of
Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz (Aveira Leshmo): Judaism differs from other
religions especially in regards to the minor commandments. He
cites the Meiri (Yevamos 47a) that when a non Jew comes to
convert he should be told only some of the minor commandments -
otherwise he might change his mind. Reb Chaim explains that other
religions have commandments only concerning major aspects of the
religious service. Judaism in contrast has commandments which
govern all aspects of life - even how to dress and eat. For a non
Jew this total subservience is upsetting and thus might cause a
potential convert to change his mind. In contrast a Jew views it
as desirable that everything is described in Shulchan Aruch. For
a Jew this state of certainty is superior to that of doubt - even
if it requires loss and restriction. He notes that while the
issues of ais la'asos and aveira leshemo seem to remove this
absolute certainly - they are irrelevant in practice.

Question:
It would follow -  that slavery in Egypt was necessary to create
the slave mentality in the Jewish people. Thus Pesach is not the
time of freedom but rather the change of Boss -  to whom are we
slaves. The Maharal takes this position. Are there any
commentaries which disagree with this perspective? This obviously
is counter to the Western Concept of spirituality and not just to
non Jewish religious values. In other words - are there any
explanations of Pesach and slavery which are consistent with
modern Western values? [Prof Kaplan writes page 23 Daas Torah:
"This being the case, it follows that the ideology of Daas Torah
is a central, perhaps the central, element in the ethic of
submission that characterizes the rejectionsist approach, for at
the heart of the rejectionist approach is the view that
unquestioning submission to authority, the authority of halacha,
of the gadol, of G-d is the highest religious values and one that
is absolutely opposed to the modern values of intellectual
autonomy and self-expression.]

                   Daniel Eidensohn
p.s. I am not interested in rehashing the issue of Daas Torah but
only cite this as clear expression of the place of subservience
in Yiddishkeit.

In a message dated 3/28/99 7:47:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, owner-
avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< The 
 apparent contradiction is having Shoftim such as Shmuel concurrent with a 
 Melech. >>

Correction not withstanding, the fact is shoftim exist independent of melech
as the din d'oraysa of shoftim v'shotrim titen lecha - appointing a B"D.  I do
not know why you assume the beracha refers to anything more then that.  See
Avnei Eliyahu in siddur HaGRA for a different approach than the one I'm
suggesting  that will also answer your kashe.

-CB

>>>since it prohibited by vote it can not be
nullified even though its whole rational has ceased<<<

R' Moshe though is not the only word in psak - see the discussion in Ktzos
HaShulchan regarging refuah on Shabbos and the gezeirah of sh'chikas samimanim
for shitos who take Tos. at face value.  Achronim before R" Moshe have dealt
with this issue - Taz in 339:3 explains pshat that tikun kli shir b'zman hzeh
is a milsa d'lo schicha v'lo gazru, and Aruch HaShulchan distinguishes between
our clapping/dancing and the gezeirah of Chazal.  

-CB

On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Sammy Ominsky wrote:

> I don't have Shemirat Shabbat K'Hilchoso, but on reading S"A OC 291:5 he
> seems to say that if we don't have bread we MAY eat the seu'dah without
> it, or as explained by the Rema, in a circumstance where one may not eat
> bread, such as erev Pesah. 
> 
> Is it really taken as a l'chatchilah? Or is it, as I seem to read, only
> b'diavad? 
> 

It certainly is not preferable, but there is a nafka mina: If one forgot
retzei in the first two meals one must repeat Birkas Ha'Mazon, but not if
one forgot retzei in SS.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Sammy Ominsky wrote:

> Siddur Ish Matzliah, hilchot seu'dah revi'it #7: "Amru b'zohar hakadosh
> she-mi she-eino m'kayem seu'dah revi'it, nihshav lo ke-ilu lo kayem
> seu'dah shelishit." 
> 
> Again, my apologies. I left out his source. Yehavei Da'at 4,60:5
> 

Could you please look up the source in the Zohar? I do not know what a
Yehavei Da'at is, and certainly do not have one! I think this may be
similar to Rashbi's endorsement of the concept of Isru Chag in Shas.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I would like to very much thank my friend, and our fellow listmember, R'
Aryeh Frimer, for sending me a copy of the essay so masterfully composed
by his brother and himself, on the topic mentioned in the header.

I would like, not so much to comment on the issue personally, but to view
the issue in light of our discussion of yeridas ha'doros.

As I have mentioned before, I am the beneficiary of a solid "white" 
education (how many of you out there, besides me, know "Yad Achim" by
heart - both stanzas? How many know who wrote the anthem? How many even
know what it is?). It is interesting to note, that in the context of the
education that we received back in the 70's, we were taught to know that
the Gedolei Torah of the neneration were shared in common by "right"
("black") and "left" ("white"). This point was brought home very early on,
when shortly after coming to Netiv Meir the yeshiva - en masse - attended
R' Yechezkel Abtamsky's levaya in Bayit v'Gan. True, there were
differences in our Bnei Akiva "hashkofo" - but it was in Netiv Meir that I
was introduced to the Michtav Me'Eliyahu and Lev Eliyahu. 

This continued later in Sha'alvim. When Gedolim like R' Chaim Shmuelevitz
were niftar, we were bussed as one to the levayos. R' Hutner, R' Shmuel
Rozovsky, R' Brudny - we heard hespedim on them all and many more. We, no
different than the talmidim of Kol Torah or Eitz Chaim, were the talmidei
talmidim of RSZ Auerbach and RIZ Meltzer, etc. Yes, we were educated to a
good, yekkeshe, PAI "hashkofo" - but the Chazon Ish's halochic standards
reigned supreme.

Speaking of the CI, it is said that we was not enamoured of R' TP Frank's
seforim. Why? Because RTP relied on Poskim and Talmidei Chachomim that
were clearly his inferior in reaching conclusions.

I do not wish to debate that point. But I use it as a springboard.

THat which I find that I must take the most exception to in my friend's
essay is the equivallency drawn - both in the sections on "pure" halacha
and those on "public policy" between the recognized scholars of greater
magnitude and those of lesser magnitude. Certainly, debate of issues may
take place on any level - but in context, it seems to the reader that,
say, the opinions of Justice Elon may be used to refute those of R'
Herschel Schachter, or that communal rabbis who assess the situation
subjectively may differ with R' Moshe Feinstein or the Rav. I have
difficulty with R' YH Henkin being cited numerous times as the "tzad
she'kineged" against scholars whom I - and most of observant Jewry -
regard as greater b'chochmo u'b'minyan. I am afraid of a rift.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Since a listmember wrote me offline concerning hiis perception that I am
mounting an "inquisition" (his term) against "Modern Orthodoxy" (his
term), and since this is the season of Ahava, I feel I must note:

When we get to Olam Ha'Ba, I believe, everyone from R' Arele's to Merkaz
HaRav'niks, and everyone else, will be measured by their lishma and avoda,
and their hashkofos will matter nary a whit. Hashkofo does have some
significance, as it indicates what the "Olam ha'Metukkan" that we strive
for in our "Tikkun Olam" should look like, but it is of decidedly minor
significance.

Most of our discussions here fall into the Hashkofo category. They are
interesting fodder for debate and clarification, but should not alter our
ultimate regard for each other.

While we engage in such debate, I have the utmost respect and sense of
friendship - to the extent correspondence can achieve that - with my
"sparring partners" here. I have also learnt a great deal from these
individuals such as RET, RMF, RDE, RDG, REC - and this is not to the
exclusion of others, rather because some might think there is some
acrimony c"v in debate among the frequent posters. As I said, I have
learnt much, enjoy the give and take (hey, this is my "fun and
relaxation!"), and the banter. I also strive to earn my wings - as gauged
by RMF - every day!

Thus, there is no inquisiton intended. And, when I am "bitterly" attacked
- such as on the Vellikovsky issue - I do not see it as an inquisition,
rather as "Milchamta shel Torah". As RDG noted, we always remain friends.

Thus, if someone was offended by an unintended tenor in the discussions, I
humbly (really!) ask mechila, and hope that we can approach Pesach with
true Ahavas Yisroel!

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Lich'ora, the lack of deference between the Re'o and the Rashbo as well as the 
case of the Amoraim ripping off the red dress, precede the mussar movement. 

Rich Wolpoe

********************


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