Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 101

Saturday, June 26 1999

• Chareidi schools
• Sheep Mentality
• Nishtane Hateva
• Re: Chareidi schools
• Re: Chareidi schools
• RE: Chareidi schools
• Re: Chareidi schools
• Re: "The Sheep Mentality"
• RE: Chareidi schools
• Re: "The Sheep Mentality"
• meat and fish
• baale teshuvah

CBrown writes:-


>My wife and I are always amused when we get into conversations with people 
>who have TVs in there home, believe their children should have a secular 
>education, acknowledge the value Israel as a State, and then send their 
>children to a school which preaches against most of these items - after all, 
>you don;t want to be identified with the people who send their kids to the 
>'other' (whichever it may be) school <sic>.  Hypocricy?
>
>- -CB

But what do you do when the "Hareidi" school is clearly superior to the
alternatives. Do you sacrifice your son's education because of these
ideological differences? Or do you put primacy on Torah and hope that when
he grows up, your son can differentiate between the Torah and the politics?

When R. Aharon Lichtenstein was in America five years ago, he spoke at a
local shul. He emphasized that if a child has potential in Torah that is
better suited to a right-wing institution, one should not hesitate to send
him there. 

Anyone with an objective view will agree that there is no comparison between
commitment to Torah among graduates of e.g. a Ner Israel Baltimore versus,
say, a Torah Academy of Bergen County. Is one who opts for the former a
hypocrite if his hashkafa is closer to the latter? 


Arnie Lustiger

HM: >>As I see it, this is one of the major problems of our day.   I like to 
refer to it as the "Sheep" mentality. <<

This is the underlying thesis of Erich Fromme's "Escape from Freedom".

The unwillingness of individuals to assume responsiblity is at the core of the 
succes of totalitarian regimes.

Rich Wolpoe

The 05/10 Issue of US News and World Report has a cover story re: atni-biotics 
and bacterial microbes.  Apparently, bacteria mutates and learns to resist 
certain anti-biotics rendering them less effective than they once were.

There is a small piece in the article alluding to the fact that when Bacteria X 
is attacked and build an immunity, Bacteria Y learns that same "skill" at 
resisting.  I am a bit fuzzy on this point, so you scientific types may with to 
elaborate for us laymen.

The halachic ramifications might be interesting wrt to metzius, for exmaple: 
1) Prior to Fleming, Step Throat might be a sakkono.
2) After penicillin, Strep Throat (perhaps) is no longer considered a sakkono at
leat for those on medication.
3) And now, we might revert back to the pre-penicillin era, in which 
anit-biotics are no longer considered a reliabe cure for Strep, and therfore 
those on penicillin might still be deemed to be in sakkono.

On the Machshovo level, many scientific types have been humbled to realize that 
the bold predictions made decades ago -, that bacterial/infectious diessases had
been absolutely obsoleted by anti-biotics - were perhaps quite premature.  And 
as the teva changes, so are the underlying pre-suppositions upon which medicine 
relies.

In a message dated 6/25/99 10:45:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
alustig@erenj.com writes:

<< 
 Anyone with an objective view will agree that there is no comparison between
 commitment to Torah among graduates of e.g. a Ner Israel Baltimore versus,
 say, a Torah Academy of Bergen County. Is one who opts for the former a
 hypocrite if his hashkafa is closer to the latter? 
 
 
 Arnie Lustiger
 
 
  >>
Dear Arnie,
With all due respect, as a subjective father of a graduate of the Tora 
Academy of Bergen County, I can tell you that anecdotally TABC graduates  
boys whose commitment to Tora(as I understand that to be defined in the all 
inclusive sense of a commitment to doing the ratzon hashem all day on a daily 
basis) is at an extremely high level. I purposely choose not to compare it to 
any other institution since I have no factual basis for comparison. Rabbi 
Adler (the principal) spoke at a dinner a few years back concerning TABC's 
mission of turning every boy(no matter what his intellectual capabilities 
were) into the best eved hashem(again in the broadest sense of the word, not 
bifurcating the world) they were capable of being.  It was one of the best 
speeches I've heard on chinuch and I know that the school tries to follow it. 
 I think the whole issue goes back to our earlier discussions regarding the 
value of "secular" education - if you view secular education as the branches 
of the menora where tora is the central branch, then I submit that dedication 
to tora is  strongly indicated by a life where every facet (including 
"secular") supports tora .

Kol Tuv and Shabbat Shalom,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 6/25/99 10:45:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
alustig@erenj.com writes:

<< Anyone with an objective view will agree that there is no comparison 
between
 commitment to Torah among graduates of e.g. a Ner Israel Baltimore versus,
 say, a Torah Academy of Bergen County. Is one who opts for the former a
 hypocrite if his hashkafa is closer to the latter? 
  >>


Anyone with an objective view knows that it is impossible to make the kind of 
statement you have made without extensive surveying of the students ten, 
twenty, and thirty years after graduation. Inasmuch as Torah Academy of 
Bergen County is not that old, it is a little too early to tell.Therefore, 
the only thing your statement can achieve is a slur on a fine institution, 
run by and supported by Yirei Shamayim, on the students it has produced, and 
on the community in which it is based. Really, now, I fail to see why I or 
anyone else should be expected to put up with this kind of casual Loshon Hora.

Jordan  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TROMBAEDU@aol.com [mailto:TROMBAEDU@aol.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 11:50 AM
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: Chareidi schools 
> 
> In a message dated 6/25/99 10:45:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> alustig@erenj.com writes:
> 
> << Anyone with an objective view will agree that there is no 
> comparison 
> between
>  commitment to Torah among graduates of e.g. a Ner Israel 
> Baltimore versus,
>  say, a Torah Academy of Bergen County. Is one who opts for 
> the former a
>  hypocrite if his hashkafa is closer to the latter? 
>   >>
> 
> 
> Anyone with an objective view knows that it is impossible to 
> make the kind of 
> statement you have made without extensive surveying of the 
> students ten, 
> twenty, and thirty years after graduation. Inasmuch as Torah
 
A couple of years ago Dr Alvin Schiff headed a study of the long term impact
of the yeshiva day school educational system on its students. The results
should be available from the Azrieli Graduate Institute of Yeshiva
University.

> Academy of 
> Bergen County is not that old, it is a little too early to 
> tell.Therefore, 
> the only thing your statement can achieve is a slur on a fine 
> institution, 
> run by and supported by Yirei Shamayim, on the students it 
> has produced, and 
> on the community in which it is based. Really, now, I fail to 
> see why I or 
> anyone else should be expected to put up with this kind of 
> casual Loshon Hora.
> 
> Jordan  
> 

--- Arnold Lustiger <alustig@erenj.com> wrote:
> But what do you do when the "Hareidi" school is clearly superior to
> the
> alternatives. Do you sacrifice your son's education because of
> these
> ideological differences? Or do you put primacy on Torah and hope
> that when
> he grows up, your son can differentiate between the Torah and the
> politics?
> 
> When R. Aharon Lichtenstein was in America five years ago, he spoke
> at a
> local shul. He emphasized that if a child has potential in Torah
> that is
> better suited to a right-wing institution, one should not hesitate
> to send
> him there. 
> 
> Anyone with an objective view will agree that there is no
> comparison between
> commitment to Torah among graduates of e.g. a Ner Israel Baltimore
> versus,
> say, a Torah Academy of Bergen County. Is one who opts for the
> former a
> hypocrite if his hashkafa is closer to the latter? 

Arnie may be right in some cases (especially Yeshiva of Philadelphia,
which is an elite school).  But in many cases, the statistics can be
misleading.  In Harry Maryles' school, most of the students were
coming from less frum families.  So, of course, the "average"
graduate of that school will exhibit less of a commitment to Torah. 
The question is what happens when you do a double-blind study (which
never happens in real life).

My personal experience derives from my attendance of Yeshiva Tifereth
Moshe (Chofetz Chaim's elementary school in Kew Gardens) until 1980
and MTA (YU's high school) from 1980-83.  At that time, the top shiur
of MTA had very bright students, but half came from "less frum"
families.  Those coming from "more frum" families tended to be quite
serious (you could tell that by their decision to attend the "Morasha
Kollel" learning program during the summer).  Those coming from less
frum families ran the gamut; at least one today is no longer
religious and another is Conservadox.

I compared these people with some of those who came from right-wing
schools and attended Yeshivat Shaalvim from 1984-86 with me.  Some of
the MTA kids who hadn't been that serious in high-school became very
serious at Sha'alvim.  (One, my chavruta during my first year,
decided to go to Ner Yisroel and spent many years there, becoming a
first-rate Talmid Chacham.)  Some of the right-wing kids went on to a
combination of a Brooklyn/Far Rockaway yeshiva & some college, and do
not impress me as talmidei chachamim.

One person, educated at a well-known Brooklyn mesivta, told me how
his secular education was a joke.  To this day, even though he
attended a top-tier law school, his grammar is sloppy.  No one who
attended Miss Mayefsky's English class at MTA would ever speak that
way.  And when a noted talmid chacham speaks ungrammaticly to a
secular audience, that detracts from his presentation.

It is true that we MTAers were at somewhat of a disadvantage
Torah-wise compared to those who attended right-wing Yeshivot. 
However: (1) This was generally quantitative more than qualitative
(somebody may have learned 100 more blatt bekiyut and 30 more blatt
iyun than I); I quickly caught up at Shaalvim.  (2) Our rebbeim at
MTA taught us how to think (I especially credit Rabbi Hecht) while
this was not necessarily done to the same extent at the other
Yeshivot.

Moreover, I contend that high school is a critical time in a child's
life primarily in terms of the values that it inculcates rather than
in terms of the quantity of knowledge acquired.  Those who are taught
to despise secular studies, moderation, etc. will have a difficult
time overcoming those attitudes even when parents attempt to
supplement the child's chinuch at home.  This is especially true
where the parent (unlike Rav Lichtenstein) is not the "equal" of the
rebbe in terms of Torah knowledge, since the child may say to the
parent that the child's rebbe knows better.

In fact, those sending to a right-wing mesitva which is very
different from the hashkafot at home take a different risk.  I know
someone (extremely bright) who went to a top-notch mesitva and was
"turned off" by the closed-mindedness and hypocrisy of the Yeshiva. 
He ended flitting back and forth between very right-wing yeshivot and
completely secular colleges.  (He eventually "found himself" while in
law school.)  

Incidentally, my parents sent my two sisters to Prospect Park Yeshiva
High School (a right-wing school) rather than Central (which they
thought was not religious enough) and one sister now considers
herself yeshivish.

Ultimately, chanoch la'na'ar al pi darko.  There is no "right" answer
that applies across the board.  I agree with Rav Lichtenstein's
statement especially in out-of-town communities, where the "Centrist"
school is often quite weak.  But in those cases, I would recommend
that parents supplement their child's education with Centrist values,
not only by providing a personal example, but also by sending them to
summer programs (such as Morasha Kollel, various yeshivot hesder in
Israel such as Shilo) and to a hesder yeshiva after high school.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
_________________________________________________________
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Well said.

The issue you raise is one reason to make Aliyah.  I get the
impression that in Israel, the serious Dati-Leumi (hesder derivative)
community does not act this way.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

--- Harry Maryles <C-Maryles@neiu.edu> wrote:
> I have been active in Jewish education here in Chicago for many
> years 
> and have observed that most parents pick a day school or high
> school for 
> their children not, because it most closely aligns with their own 
> hashkafa, but because their freinds send their children there. One
> of 
> the most common lines I hear from parents of a similar hashkafa to
> my 
> own is, "I wanted to send my son/daughter to the "Frumest"
> Yeshiva... I 
> can always make them less frum at home"!!! These parents don't give
> a 
> moments thought to the fact that the school's hashkafa will be
> different 
> than their own and that that will create potential conflict between
> the 
> lives they see in thir own home and the hashkafa they learn in
> school.
> 
> This fact has hurt Jewish educatuion. The most right wing school
> has an 
> enormous amount of power over the children and their parents. The
> level 
> of secular education is diminished and parents who value a good
> general 
> studies program have to just sit still powerless and eat it. With
> the 
> exception of Philly, the trend in the right wing day schools and
> high 
> schools is to move away from general studies with the goal to
> totally 
> remove it from the curriculem.  I believe there are already such
> schools 
> in existene already. 
> 
> The day school where I sent my children is the one which most
> closely 
> resembles my hashkfa. It places the highest value on limudei kodesh
> but 
> it also, places a very high value on limudei chol.  It fosters a
> good 
> competetive environment in both areas with events such as Torah
> fairs 
> science fair and the like.  It's pricipal, Rabbi Meir Shapiro 
> exemplifies midos and the children pick up on and hopefully
> incorporate 
> it in their own behavior.  After they graduate they remain with a
> life 
> long respect and admiration for Rabbi Shapiro and affection for the
> 
> school.  The mechanchim are amongst the finest in the city and are
> on 
> par or better than the best of the more right wing school. 
> 
> But... this school has trouble attracting families like my own who
> send 
> to the "frumer" school. The dichotomy between the parents and
> faculty is 
> widening every year.  The school is now attracting the type of
> parent 
> that values secular education more than religious.  This school is 
> starting to resemble the more left wing school where they treat
> Gemorah 
> like just another subject.
> 
> How sad!  When recently talking to a potential parent who does
> think 
> things through he admitted to me that my school is the better
> school and 
> more closely resembles his own haskafa. But he is sending to the
> frumer 
> school because he is becoming afraid of the peer group influence on
> his 
> kids from the type of families now being attracted.  This is
> happening 
> more and more and is having a snowball affect.
> 
> What was once the norm is now becoming a dinosaur, along with
> ancient 
> relics like myself.
> 
> HM
> 

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> A couple of years ago Dr Alvin Schiff headed a study of the long
> term impact
> of the yeshiva day school educational system on its students. The
> results
> should be available from the Azrieli Graduate Institute of Yeshiva
> University.

While the study may be valuable, I doubt that it can be used to solve
our problem.  It's very hard to measure the frumkeit at home and to
compare students going to Centrist Orthodox schools with those going
to right-wing mesivtot (or to even classify Centrist Orthodox
schools--is Flatbush in the same category as MTA?).

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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Moshe Feldman wrote:
> 
> Well said.
> 
> The issue you raise is one reason to make Aliyah.  I get the
> impression that in Israel, the serious Dati-Leumi (hesder derivative)
> community does not act this way.

One of my favorite people in the world, my nephew-in-law, made Aliya 
several years ago for totally ideological reasons.   He was weaned on 
Bnei Akiva and his dream was finally fulfilled.  He is definately a 
thinker.  He settled in Ramat Modi'in and sent his kids to a Dati-Leumi 
school. He was totally disappointed in the low level Torah Hashkafa that 
was extant there and finally switched him to a left-wing Chinuch Atzmai 
school, the only one that had any kind of secular studies program.

So, I'm not sure that your solution is the answer.

HM

Yzkd@aol.com wrote:

> BTW the prohibition is not only if cooked together (as a list member
> suggested yesterday).
>
> Kol Tuv
>
> Yitzchok Zirkind


I present the following in support of my earlier post to which RYZ is refering:

The restriction on eating meat and fish together is based on the Talmud
(Pesachim 76b) that warns that the combination can lead to tzaraat, a terrible
disease sometimes erroneously translated as leprosy. The Shulchan Aruch (YD
116:2) codifies that meat and fish should not be eaten together and (116:3)
between them one should wash their hands and eat soaked bread in order to
cleanse the mouth. The Chachmat Adam (68:1) cites the Gemara and writes that
eating fish and meat that were either cooked or roasted together is dangerous,
although salting them together is not a problem. Despite that danger is usually
treated more severally than issur (prohibition), fish or meat is nullified in
the other type in 1 to 60 just as prohibitions are (Chachmat Adam and Aruch
haShulchan), and there is no problem with dishes. That is, fish can be cooked in
a fleishik pot (Chachmat Adam based on Taz 95:3; The Tur suggests being
stringent in this regard.) The Chachmat Adam notes that some have the custom of
washing hands between fish and meat, but this is unnecessary. However one should
drink something between them. The Aruch Hashulchan (116:10) observes that the
danger exists with both real meat and fowl (see also Pitchei Tshuva 116:1 in the
name of Shvut Yaakov 2:104), and only if cooked together. None-the-less one
should refrain from eating them together anyhow. The Aruch haShulchan notes that
there is much debate surrounding the parameters of this danger and we must
simply follow the Ramah. It seems that in this issue the Ramah is quite lenient.
As noted, many prohibit meat and fish that are cooked or roasted together. The
Ramah says that post facto roasted is permitted (YD 116:2). If that is the case
it seems to me that certainly uncooked there cannot be a problem! In commenting
on the Mechaber's instructions about washing between meat and fish, the Ramah
(116:3) says not to worry about all of this unless they are cooked together. One
need not even wash his hands or mouth between eating them. However, he notes
adds, and I do not understand why, that one should eat and drink something
between the meat and fish. The normative practice, even among ashkenazim, is to
not eat them together even uncooked and to drink or eat something between them.


I look forward to reading additional information on this subject.

kol tuv,

Ari

> It goes without saying that without the Medinah, there would be very little 
> by way of a Baal Tshuvah Movement, even though it has been led by Americans. 
> Without the Medinah, it would not have happened. 
> 
> Jordan  
> 
There was an article in the weekend Jerusalem Post that claimed that
Baale Teshuva in the US frequently includes professionals like
doctors, lawyers, computer people etc.
On the other hand the baale teshuva in Israel are either originally
from America or else working class usually edot mizrach.

The writer further claimed that this was caused by the activities
of the religious parties in Israel which alienated the more 
intellectual levels in Israel.

Any comments?

Eli Turkel

*********************


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