Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 112

Tuesday, July 6 1999

• Re: thinking for oneself
• Re: thinking for oneself
• Jewish book in English was: Re: Greetings
• Re: Fasting depending on will of the people
• R. Soloveitchik & Science
• Chareidi Schools and Gemoro
• Re: R. Soloveitchik & Science
• secular studies
• schools
• Re: Avodah V3 #111

Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer wrote:


> It is not the topic but the purpose of the conversation that I find
> pointless. Since we are a self-selected group of "thinkers" (pat on
> collective backs) regardless of the camp with which we affiliate
> elsewhere, what exactly is the point of the discussion other than "my
> (outside of Avodah) camp is better than your camp?"

Since I was the one who coined the phrase, I feel I should apologize for 
it. "The Sheep Mentality"  does indeed have negative/demeaning 
connotations.  I have used that phrase in private conversations many 
times in the past when discussing my frustration with people who chose 
paths in Yahdus for their children that have little to do with their way 
of life or their own Mesorah. I applaud the change of name to "thinking 
for oneself" 

However, I must respectfully disagree with RYGB and Micha as to the 
relative importance of the topic and enthusiasticly agree with those who 
have spoken favorably.  In all fairness there have been some 
inapropriate refferences amongst the many posts but for the most part 
the discussion that has been generated has been enlightening.  This is 
more than about "my camp is better than your camp?" Some of the very 
core issues that we have been debating may have their roots in whether 
one thinks for himself in an intellectually honest fashion or (as one 
person reffenced) one is just "following orders".  It is perhaps (I 
don't know) an essential feature of the present day Yeshiva Hashkafa 
which instills in it's students the idea that one should listen to the 
Rebbe or Rosh HaYeshiva, and never think for himself, in matters of 
Hashkafa.  I will never forget the following story:  

There was a fellow in Chicago several years ago who was hired from the 
Chazon Ish Kolel(Bnei Brak) to be the Rosh Kolel here in a private 
Kolel. The Kolel only lasted a year or two.  When I asked him about the 
decision to come here he told me that He only came after asking the Rosh 
Kolel in Bnei Brak.  IOW He would NEVER make a decision like that for 
himself.  The phrase that sticks with me to this day was the rhetorical, 
"Auf Meine Plaitzes?" I'm hearing this phrase more and more these days. 
The idea being that he dare not make a decision. Only somebody, of 
greater stature may make it for him. Mind you this is NOT a chasidische 
Yeshiva where one asks the Rebbe everything.  This is as Litvish a 
Yeshiva as you can get. 

The Roshie Yeshiva are taking on the Aura of Chasidische Rebbes and 
slowly, incrementally, taking away Bechira from their talmidim. I am 
reminded of One Rosh HaYeshiva that has taken the concept of Kavod for 
the Rosh HaYeshiva to new heights.  He almost never gives an audience to 
the High School Talmidim.  Only as they get  the Bais Hamedrash level, 
do they get to have any kind of meaningful contact with him. The 
Talmidim revere him.

This phenomenmon harkens back to the topic of Chaim Soloveitchik's 
thesis of losing one's mesorah because of too much reliance on the 
printed word.  Only this is one step worse.  At least with a book, you 
can have some independant thinking.  But if the new phrase of Yeshvaleit 
is "Auf Meine Plaitzes?", then ones ability to think for oneself will be 
totally stripped away out of fear that ones own thinking is just too 
unreliable!

It is my belief that thinking for oneself is the best way to acheive 
high levels of Emunah.  If one is not intellectually honest then one is 
engaging in self deception and setting oneself up for a possible fall. 
While it is true that  "Thinking is nerve-wracking, tension-provoking 
and anxiety-causing", it is the best way to acheive these ends. While it 
is true that with Emunah pshuta we can serve G-d and indeed many do,  
Emunah through daas in my humble opinion is the higher form of Emunah, 
and the best way to preserve Yidishkeit,

HM

On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Harry Maryles wrote:

 
> However, I must respectfully disagree with RYGB and Micha as to the
> relative importance of the topic and enthusiasticly agree with those who
> have spoken favorably.  In all fairness there have been some
> inapropriate refferences amongst the many posts but for the most part
> the discussion that has been generated has been enlightening.  This is
> more than about "my camp is better than your camp?" Some of the very
> core issues that we have been debating may have their roots in whether
> one thinks for himself in an intellectually honest fashion or (as one
> person reffenced) one is just "following orders".  It is perhaps (I
> don't know) an essential feature of the present day Yeshiva Hashkafa
> which instills in it's students the idea that one should listen to the
> Rebbe or Rosh HaYeshiva, and never think for himself, in matters of
> Hashkafa.  I will never forget the following story: 
>

Again, who are you trying to convince? There is no one here at
Avodah/Aishdas who disagrees with the premise that one must think things
out, so what good does it do anyone here to hear of horror stories from
the great outside world? You do not mean to accuse all right wing Jews of
not thinking, just as no one would accuse all left wing Jews of slack
observance. So you are critiquing people who are not here. What Ahavas or
Yiras Hashem exactly is being enhanced? 
 
> It is my belief that thinking for oneself is the best way to acheive
> high levels of Emunah.  If one is not intellectually honest then one is
> engaging in self deception and setting oneself up for a possible fall. 
> While it is true that "Thinking is nerve-wracking, tension-provoking and
> anxiety-causing", it is the best way to acheive these ends. While it is
> true that with Emunah pshuta we can serve G-d and indeed many do, Emunah
> through daas in my humble opinion is the higher form of Emunah, and the
> best way to preserve Yidishkeit,
>

I am still waiting for this topic to be one that can generate genuine
internal discussion among us Avodah/Aishdas members. So far I cannot see
it. 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Mindy Scheer <MScheer@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> wrote:
>
>I have a question about Jewish Books especially on the subject of Halacha. I
>live in a rural area and Judiac books just can't be found.
>I tried searching the internet and asked for catalogs of the Jewish Publishers
>that had websites. I anyone is pretty knowledgeable about where a good variety
>of Jewish books in English can be found, I am definately open to suggestion.

Some major publishers in English are:

Mesorah Publications (also known as Artscroll for their Artscroll series)
1-800-MESORAH; http://www.artscroll.com
lots of books in lots of areas--also distributes Shaar Press books

Feldheim
1-800-237-7149; http://www.feldheim.com
lots of books in lots of areas--also distributes Targum Press books

Moznaim Press
1-718-438-7680
lots of translations including Mishneh Torah, Tanach w/Me'am Lo'ez commentary

Soncino
best known for their complete translation of the Talmud Bavli into English
(which is also available from Traditional Press)

Judaica Press
123 Ditmas Ave/Brooklyn, NY 11218
Tanach series, Blackman Mishnah, Jastrow dictionary, Hirsch Chumash

Kehot Publication Society
1-718-778-0226 ?
publishes Chabad Lubavitch seforim

Ktav
1-201-963-9524; http://www.ktav.com
books scattered over a bewildering assortment of topics


For halacha, Mesorah or Feldheim is probably most likely to have
whatever you might be looking for.  Either one seems to give a 10%
discount for orders directly from them with only minimal shipping
charges.  Or you could order from somewhere like Judaica Express
(1-800-2-Books-1; R. Shmuel Epstein) that will have books from both
publishers at 10% off plus a whole lot more (but they charge actual
cost for shipping).

A couple random tidbits to finish off:

If you are left-handed, there is a pamphlet "Yad Eliezer" that
catagorizes halachos and minhagim into those that are the same and
those that are different for left and right-handers.  Available from
the author (sorry, I don't have the number here) or from R. Epstein or
elsewhere.

A good basic cookbook, with lots of extras such as info on food
related halachos (e.g. halachos of taking challah), sample Shabbos and
Yom Tov menus, and a very concise summary of holidays is: "Spice and
Spirit: The Complete Kosher Jewish Cookbook".

Rav Eider's Halachos of the Three Weeks, I think from Feldheim

There are different shitot on the gemara in Rosh Hashana 18b:
RASHI: defines "she'yesh shalom" as even when the bet hamikdash isn't built
if the hand of the goyim is not *tekefa* (held) over Israel, then the taaniyot
are days of rejoicing (sasson v'simcha) [but there is no *active* celebration].
By definition: if the bet hamikdash *is* built, even if the goyim have rule
over Israel, these fast days are days of simcha.

RABBENU CHANNANEL: all the tzomot are a zecher of the bet hamikdash. Thus in
time of peace (e.g. bet hamikdash is built), these fast days become days of
simcha. There is only a chovat tzom when there is a gezera (goyim rule). The
middle path: no bet hamikdash but no gezera: it's up to the decision of the
people as a whole.

RAMBAN: shalom = bet hamikdash is built and thus fast days become days of
simcha; no shalom but no days of gezera (rule of goyim over Israel): "ratzu
rov yisrael v'nismichu shelo l'hitanot EIN MATRICHIM ALEYHEM L'HITANOT".

RABBENU TAM: if there is no gezera against the Jews anywhere, the period is
NOT considered one that there is a chovat tzom.

RAMBAM (Peyrush hamishnayot Rosh Hashana 1:3): if yad ha'umot eino tekefa,
this is equivalent to shalom and thus the tzomot are yemei simcha; if there
is any gezera against Jews anywhere in the world, the tzomot revert back to
the will of the people.

RITVA: if there is no gezera, the people can abolish "rechitza, sika, u'neilat
ha'sandal" but not "achila". Thus so long as the bet hamikdash isn't rebuilt
we have to fast.

Josh

In a 1958 address to the Rabbinical Council, the Rav addressed the issue
under present discussion here in detail. Dr. Lawrence Kaplan mentioned this
lecture in a footnote in a recent article in BADAD (Bechol Derachaha Da'ehu
- an Israeli journal). Here is a direct quote:

.... the Rav speaks of the two peaks, the two worlds of Torah and Western
culture, and of the need for the individual to live on both of these peaks,
in both of these worlds, and to move back and forth between the two. And the
Rav adds that though on the one hand there is an abyss separating these two
peaks, and that no one -- not even the Rambam --  succeeded in building a
complete and fully adequate bridge between them, on the other hand the peaks
must be brought into contact, into relationship with one another, they must
understand one another. "We want the man who studies gemara to understand
the other peak, the entire physical-mathematical world and the philosophical
interpretation of the world, differently than the dry mathematical physicist
who dwells entirely in  the realm of the profane, in the secular work-a-day
world; and we also want to bring that experience, that understanding, that
depth and exactitude that we acquire while on the other peak, the peak of
culture, into the peak of holiness, of Judaism, in order to deepen it and
broaden it and gain new insights into it.  We must bring the beauty of Yefet
into the tents of Shem." 


Having heard the lecture on tape (in Yiddish), I don't think that the Rav
has ever made a clearer public expression of the value of secular studies. 

Arnie Lustiger

>>The Rav grew up at home and was influenced not only by his father but by his 
mother as well.  His parents hired private tutors for him for secular subjects 
(I think, during his teens).

Kol tuv,
Moshe<<

I have BH returned, after a brief hiatus.

1) No one size fits all.  Certainly if the parent of the bochur in quesiton is 
R. Moshe Soloveichik, one would expect, demand(?), an exception be made.  

2) re: The source of the Gemoro's imporatacne, I think the Rambam makes a very 
strong case for this, that after completing Mikro and Mihsno, one should be 
immersee in Gemoro full time, (i.e dovor mitoch Dovor)

3) I agree with the assertions that Mikro and Mishno are prerequisite to 
Gemorol.  IMHO yeshivo Ketanos and Day Schools should be the ones primarily 
addressing this issue.

4) Gemoro also requires more hand-holding byt both rebbes and chavrusos than 
does either Mikor or Mishno.  Certainly, most students would be better off in a 
sevivo of highly competent lamdonnim than at home (unless perhaps the fater is 
himself a lamdan with both the time and energy to give his chold the necessary 
tutoring)

5) While I do not intend to flame anyone, I do question the motivation, and 
sincecrity and commitment about those who wish to keep their children home and 
not send them away.  Undoubtedly. as first noted, some children are not suited 
fro dromitory schools, however, I think that there is a lot of rationalization 
taking place, too.  Is it flaming or just mussar/hashkofo to point this out?!

6) I spent the weekend at CAmp Morasha, a "Centrist": camp.  The singing, 
davening, ruach etc, was highly intense.  Do you really think this could be 
fosterd in a day Camp? I doubt it.


Rich Wolpoe

Having also heard the tape, I must say the eloquence and pathos were
stunning, and that it was a revelation into RYBS's perspective on secular
studies.

On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Arnold Lustiger wrote:

> Having heard the lecture on tape (in Yiddish), I don't think that the
> Rav has ever made a clearer public expression of the value of secular
> studies.
> 
> Arnie Lustiger
> 
> 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

> 
> Maimonidean Torah u'Madda: Pro philosophy and sciences, with little use
> for the humanities and/or literature if any.
> 
> Gr"a Torah u'Madda: Pro sciences and limited arts (such as, specifically,
> music) with little use for philosophy, if any.
> 
> Hirschian Torah im Derech Eretz: Pro all areas of secular study, including
> a strong positive attitude towards culture, literature and the arts - but
> with the caveat that they all be adjunct to and subordinate to Torah and
> its standards, and that their study be delineated by yiras shomayim.
> 
This reminds me of an article I recently saw that pointed out that
while today's Torah u-madda mainly concentrates in the sciences
(I think Rav Lichtenstein is a minority here) in Rav Hirsch's days
it was the opposite with the push being for culture. Science
being viewed as anti-religious (Darwin, Freud, astronomy)

Eli Turkel

> 
> There are many people who are nominally in the Centrist camp, although they are
> not fervent talmidim of the Rav and their neshamos do not reverberate with his
> hashkafos.  Rather, the lifestyle within this camp is viewed as being more
> convenient and less demanding than that of the Litvishe yeshivishe velt, and
> that is certainly attractive to some.  As a result, a good part of the student
> body at such an institution would quite possibly come from homes that are
> possibly somewhat more casual about halacha, and less inclined to allow the
> rebbeim there to guide their children to a more intense level of avodas hashem.
> 
> This may also explain why so many Centrist parents send their children to
> chareidi schools.  There may be fundamental differences between the ideologies,
> but one may be better able to assume that the child's friends homes take
> halachic matters very seriously.
> 

It obviously depends on the school. What Meyer says unfortunately
is true in many schools. On the other hand I went to MTA in the old
days. It had a mix of students but I never found that a problem.

As Shoshana has pointed out I feel that Israeli schools are frequently
more religious. In particular we sent one son to Shaalavim high school
which has a fairly good secular program and a mix of MO and
Charedi students (some of the haredi students drop out before the
bagrut).

Eli Turkel

> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 01:56:16 +0300
> From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@netmedia.net.il>
> Subject: Re: R. Soloveitchik & liberal arts
> 
> Shalom Carmy wrote:
> 
> > Rav Soloveitchik's commitment to the importance of a liberal arts
> > education should be evident to anyone who reads his major writings
> 
> > On a more general level: Giving value to secular studies does not imply an
> > imperative of "ve-dibbarta bam," so to speak, in accord with which one
> > must study philosophy and literature day in and day out. One may value a
> My question was based on the quotes from Rav Lichtenstein which seem
> to place a strong imperative on *mastering* secular thought and
> *immersion* in them. In my limited research  I have not come across a
> comparable statement by Rav Soleveitchik. I assume if it existed it
> would have been cited in Rabbi Lamm's Torah UMadda (1990)- whose best
> quote is from Rav Hutner (page 196). I am also extrapolating from a
> few articles by Rav Lichtenstein which seem much more imbued with
> secular ideation and allusions. There obviously was never a question
> about Rav Soleveitchiks mastery of secular knowledge. The issue is
> simply whether he agreed with the stated position of Rav Lichtenstein?
> 

1. In a newspaper interview (I think Hatsofe) R. Lichtenstein states that
he was never immersed in secular studies except for the two years he did
his coursework at Harvard. (Presumably he does not count the period he was
writing his dissertation and the period when he was a full-time member of
the English department as immersion.

2. Serious people do everything seriously. I once heard R. Lichtenstein
express displeasure at talmidim who were playing basketball
half-heartedly. The argument can be made, and R. Lichtenstein has made it
orally, if I understand him correctly, that in order to have a good
general education, you need to know some area in detail. If you
don't master that sub-field, you'll never understand what real study is
about. In fact, when people dabble (whether in Torah or in liberal arts)
they are usually fuzzy and unable to think clearly about anything. When
you have learned to work seriously, you can get a clear idea of your
competence and limitations in other areas too.

3. Whenever the Rav zt"l always advised me about advising younger people
the ultimate question was what that person wanted to accomplish. If you
want to be intelligent about certain matters, you will do what needs to be
done. He wanted to make a contribution to philosophy of science. He
was well-informed on many other subjects because he thought these were
matters one needs to know.

In a word, I am not sure what is meant by mastery or immersion in the
abstract.

*********************


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