Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 133

Thursday, July 22 1999

• Re: Jewish Rock Music
• Re: rift within the Halachic community
• Re: rift within the Halachic community
• what moves you
• Abridged Kinot
• Va'eschanan
• Re: rift within the Halachic community
• Re: Abridged Kinot
• re: rift within the Halachic community
• RE; What mitzvoh/hanhogoh moves you?
• beit hamikdash
• Re: beit hamikdash
• Re: your family name (from Avodah V3#132)
• Chevra Kadisha
• Kol Nidre
• Re: What "moves me"
• Re: rift within the Halachic community
• "chassidic" rock music
• Chazon Ish and literalism

Michah Berger wrote:

<<<
David Glassner writes, "The kind of separate dancing that routinely takes
place at these simchas would have scandalized the grownups of two or three
generations ago."

I think we should be even more scandalized by the idea that we wouldn't even
think of having mixed dancing at our weddings, yet the dancing we do have
consists heavily of people (ok, mostly the chassan's friends, who are kind of
young) aggressively competing -- often physically -- to get as close the
middle as possible.
>>>

Just to take your thought a step further (perhaps further than you would like to go with it), the very separation is a kind of encouragement to this sort of thing.  At least among the gentiles there used to be (and perhaps still is in certain circles) a notion that different standards of conduct and manners obtain in "mixed company" from those that are expected in "separate company."  As an aside, I would note (although it goes against the point I am making) based on a very limited and stale set of observations, that at Hasidic weddings, there is much less of a breakdown in minimal standards of decorum than at typical frum weddings.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !
!
!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

Eli Turkel wrote:

>
> Tragically, the Jewish community has a tendency to quarrel among
> themselves and to constantly draw red lines to put much of the rest
> of Judaism beyond the pale.
>
>
> These are facts beyond the control of our community. However, I have
> fears of Sicarii becoming a power again with all sorts of moral
> squads imposing their standards on others. There have been cases of
> stores vandalized and burnt for carrying the wrong newspapers, schools
> torched for teaching secular studies. While these actions are done by
> a fringe element I have my fears of its spreading. There was even a
> case in recent years of Rav Eliyashiv's car being attacked because of
> a psak halacha.
>
> In these days of a churban caused by sinat chinom the antidote should
> be ahavat chinom.
> May we see the rebuilding of the Jewish community which will lead to
> the rebuilding of the Bet haMikdash.
>
>

There was an Symposium:"On Divided and Distinguished Worlds" in Tradition
Winter 1992. Rabbi Moshe Eisemann page 32-34 said:
"The question presupposes that it is a good thing for the Orthodox community to
be 'brought together rather than to allow itself to be divided by 'minor
variations in dress and custom'. I believe that the premises are incorrect and
the problem therefore a spurious one.....It is simply wrong to claim in general
terms, that we are divided by trivialities. Are these divisions tragic? Yes and
no. A mahloket leshem shamayim...is not all bad. A mahloket shelo leshem
shamayim is , of course, catastrophic. Who are we to judge whether the issues
which divide us belong to the one category or to the other? for those of us who
tend to minimize such differences and to view them as insignificant, there is
the following to consider: there may well be such a thing as too much
tolerance. If I can remain cool and accepting in the face of perceived
heresies, then perhaps it is not because I love humanity so much but because I
am concerned too little for Jewish truth - for G-d....
Those of us who have cried over other's failings have the right perhaps even
the duty to condemn excesses. Those of us who have not had better look within
ourselves. If it is true that he who hurls a stone were well advised to be
pretty sure that he is doing the right thing. I believe that the who who feels
no urge to do so. must engage in even deeper soul searching....

                                 Daniel Eidensohn

In a message dated 7/21/99 12:00:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yadmoshe@netmedia.net.il writes:

<< 
 There was an Symposium:"On Divided and Distinguished Worlds" in Tradition
 Winter 1992. Rabbi Moshe Eisemann page 32-34 said:
 "The question presupposes that it is a good thing for the Orthodox community 
to
 be 'brought together rather than to allow itself to be divided by 'minor
 variations in dress and custom'. I believe that the premises are incorrect 
and
 the problem therefore a spurious one.....It is simply wrong to claim in 
general
 terms, that we are divided by trivialities. Are these divisions tragic? Yes 
and
 no. A mahloket leshem shamayim...is not all bad. A mahloket shelo leshem
 shamayim is , of course, catastrophic. Who are we to judge whether the issues
 which divide us belong to the one category or to the other?

==================
Don't each of us have a responsibility for our own actions  and thus a 
responsibility to judge when to act and when not to act? Or is this driving 
back to the Daat Torah dispute  as to who decides on a daily basis?
==================

 for those of us who
 tend to minimize such differences and to view them as insignificant, there is
 the following to consider: there may well be such a thing as too much
 tolerance. If I can remain cool and accepting in the face of perceived
 heresies, then perhaps it is not because I love humanity so much but because 
I
 am concerned too little for Jewish truth - for G-d....

====================
Definitely a possibility
====================

 Those of us who have cried over other's failings have the right perhaps even
 the duty to condemn excesses. 

====================
Assuming we've cried over our own failings and acted on them?
=====================


Those of us who have not had better look within
 ourselves. If it is true that he who hurls a stone were well advised to be
 pretty sure that he is doing the right thing.

========================
I believe that an aveira l'shma requires more than being pretty sure
=======================


 I believe that the who feels
 no urge to do so. must engage in even deeper soul searching....

======================
Not deeper, the same
===================== 
                                  Daniel Eidensohn
  >>

==================
Have a meaningful and easy fast

Joel Rich
====================

At the end of Havdala we sing "Eliyahu Hanavi" (in the old tune
that does fit the words). This always grabs me- it links us 
with the yearning of Jews through time and space for the geulah
and summons up the poignancy of the wait...


CLS
---------------------------------------------------------
Claude (Chaim) and Rivka Schochet 

Hi all,

A common American custom on Tisha b'Av (at least when its on a weekday) is
for the shul to publicly recite an abridged list of kinot.

A list of abridged kinot that I hastily scrawled on the inside of my
Artscroll was given over to me in the name of Rav Aharon Soloveitchik
shlit"a, but I cannot remember if that attribution is reliable.

Does anyone out there:
	(a) know of the minhag of abridging the list?,
	(b) if so, know of a reliable abridged list?
	(c) have any confirmation on the Rav Aharon attribution?

thanks
Josh Cypess

The Vilna Gaon distinguishes between tephillah and tachanunim in that he
considers the former to refer to prayer of a fixed text, and the latter to
be a free expression of what's on one's mind. Tephillah is always b'lashon
rabbim (e.g. Sh'moneh Esrei) but tachanunim can be bilashon yachid. The
Gaon therefore considers E-lokai Nitzor to be tachanunim, and thereby explains
why there are so many customs involving embellishments to the basic text. One
needs to say more than the formal text in order for EN to serve its purpose.

In contrast, tephillah is a formal text, to which one may add personal
requests. The line is kind of blurry, as is implied by "kol ha'oseh tefillaso
k'va, ein tefillaso tachanunim". Tephillah should have elements of tachanunim,
and the standardized *frameworks* of EN and tachanun (note the root) give
tachanunim an element of tephillah.

Both R' SR Hirsch and the Rav use the "tephillah" part of this idea to explain
why the normal verb form of tephillah is in hitp'el. One makes oneself a prayer.
Tephillah is a fixed text because it's an exercise in trying to develop an
ideal relationship with HKBH, not an expression of that relationship as it is.
Presumably tachanunim serves in that role, although neither of them mention
tanchanunim.

So far so good. Until you get to the name of this week's parashah --
Va'eschanan. Mosheh describes a prayer that requires a reflexive conjugation
of the /ch-n-n/ root. I don't know what to make of it.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Jul-99: Revi'i, Vaeschanan
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 340:18-24
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 10b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-I 9

On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, Eli Turkel wrote:

> 
> RYGB writes << But, in my opinion, tragically, this is not the case. As
> R' Meir - whom I respect and with whom I always carry on respectful
> conversations, and who has the rare knack of discussing controversial
> topics without resorting to hyperbole and rhetoric - indicates, there is
> a gulf between our approaches that is likely unbridgeable. As I say,
> this is tragic, and may well eventually lead to an irreparable rift
> within the Halachic community. >>
> 
> Tragically, the Jewish community has a tendency to quarrel among
> themselves and to constantly draw red lines to put much of the rest of
> Judaism beyond the pale. 
> 

I assume that my post was used as a springboard, not as a point of
reference. I note that the other perspective is one that is *within* the
Halachic community. There are rifts other than those betwen Orthodox and
non-Orthodox (witness that between Satmar and Lubavitch and that between
the Religious Zionist and non-Religious zionist, etc. etc. They are all
tragic. Tragedies are not necessarily the same as heresises. I think
Allegorization is a tragic error even though it does not, in this case,
meet technically the criterion of heresy. I am not even sure there is
anyone who disagrees - other than in scholarly debate - with me here.)
RET's comments are only apropos when the debate becomes uncivil.

That has not happened here. It rarely does, on Avodah.

May we all be zoche to see Nechomas Tziyon v'Yerushalayim be'meheira.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I never heard of a formal custom to abridge the kinos.

However, in light of my previous post, kinos are tachanunim, not tephillah.
I therefore consider it far more important (if my time is constrained) to
say fewer kinos while making sure I understand the words (and maybe a comment
or two if something bothers me) than trying to say all of them. I can't do
either at the same speed as the rest of the minyan anyway.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Jul-99: Revi'i, Vaeschanan
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 340:18-24
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 10b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-I 9

Daniel Eidensohn quotes R' Moshe Eisenman saying:
: the problem therefore a spurious one.....It is simply wrong to claim in
: general terms, that we are divided by trivialities. Are these divisions
: tragic? Yes and no. A mahloket leshem shamayim...is not all bad. A mahloket
: shelo leshem shamayim is , of course, catastrophic.

A machlokes lisheim shamayim would be characterized by being a division in
ideas -- not people. Assuming both sides are lisheim shamayim and kosher, and
therefore no one involved is a min or rasha. It wouldn't lead to a rift in the
*halachic community*.

One that's not lisheim shamayim could be between people, but not necessarily
so.

Plurality of ideas and customs is a good thing. People can find a subcommunity
whose mahalach fits their kishronos and netios. Particularly if the halachic
community stays closely unified, so that people don't have sociological
barriers to overcome to go from one group to the other.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Jul-99: Revi'i, Vaeschanan
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 340:18-24
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 10b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-I 9

Thanks, Micha, for promoting some soul-baring.


Throughout the year, a well-done rendering of a particular b'rocho (e.g.
before lighting the M'norah, Kiddush/Havdolo), aspect of the davening (e.g.
Hallel, Kol Nidrai [as per RWolpoe], L'chah Dodi), or k'riah (e.g. M'gillas
Esther) will always move me, all the more so when I can participate in it.
Re shul-based experiences, a more-recent (i.e. JEC of Elizabeth rather than
"Breuer's") example is the singing of Y'did Nefesh before L'chu N'ran'nah
on Friday evenings.  There's no question in my mind that a melody can
establish a direct connection with one's spiritual side.

In terms of mitzvos, I echo HMaryles' thoughts: learning alone or even
b'chavrusa cannot compare to learning b'chavrusa in a bais ha'medrash, and
the learning in Aish HaTorah's bayis can truly be awesome.  That said, I'm
sure some of us, having experienced it first-hand, feel the same about
being a part of the learning in other botei medrash.

May we find the inspiration, and likewise inspire others, to do what it
takes to cause the fulfillment of the "prophecies of consolation"!  Turn
tish'a b'Av into a meaningful day...and don't stop there.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

Those interested in viewing the Temple on the net can see the
(Chabad site) http://moshiach.com/mikdosh

It has some nice pictures - just avoid the home page moshiach.com

Eli Turkel

I really don't mean to criticize, please don't get me wrong, and I may
well agree with the sentiment, but:

Why is it OK to imply all that RET implies in the "just avoid" yet, it
would seem, not to have a similar reaction to the School of
Allegorization? 

On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, Eli Turkel wrote:

> 
> Those interested in viewing the Temple on the net can see the
> (Chabad site) http://moshiach.com/mikdosh
> 
> It has some nice pictures - just avoid the home page moshiach.com
> 
> Eli Turkel
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, Michael Poppers wrote:

> 
> 
> > Bechhofer - two h's, one f. Sorry, I didn't make up the name! <
> ...and it's correctly pronounced "besh-HOE-fer" rather than "BEK-ha-fer,"
> right? :-)
> 

Correct, of course. Thos who wish to spell the name phonetically are
welcome to do so. I believe, also, there is supposed to be an "umlaut"
(sp?) over the "o", so some distant relatives actually spell the name in
English: Bechhoefer.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I am currently considering joining the local chevra kadisha.  Before I make
a decision, I'd like to hear from any of you who participate(d) in this
mitzva.  Specifically, I'm interested in learning a) whether I would find
the work of the chevra kadisha "moving/spiritually uplifting" or not; and b)
any other considerations that should be taken into account in my decision. 

~ Aryeh

>>
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: What moves you

Rich Wolpoe mentioned Kol Nidre. An interesting example. I don't find the
content particularly moving -- anulment of vows doesn't really do much for
me on an emotional level. OTOH, the Rav explains that we open with Kol Nidre
because the whole idea of being able to change the past is what underlies
teshuvah, as well as the anulment process.<

Obviously there is a lot of discussion on Kol Nidre.  Suffice it to say that in 
my Kol Nidre droshos I point out the connection between humans as having kach 
hadibbur and how we have abused that most distinctive factor of our humanity.

Sometimes I pointd out the seriousness of Loshon Horo and talking in shul ,etc. 
IOW other dibbur related aveiros/miztvos in conjunction with the Kol Nidre 
theme.

And in another sense, Kol Nidre shows us that we have failed kechol hatozei 
mipiv yaase. (which BTW,was a bigie acording to Professor Agus in that it is HOW
we got bound at sinai - mushba v'omaid) So in a real sense kol hatoro kulo is 
dependent upon our shvuos, and Kol Nidre highlights our shhortcomings in that 
arena.


Rich Wolpoe

What "moves" me...
Well, the moment after Ne'ilah when we have JUST completed Kaddish and the
entire Kehilla erupts in the Simcha of "L'shana Ha'ba'a"....  Truly, it
contains hope, delight, Bitachon, and joy.....

--Zvi

--- Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@netmedia.net.il> wrote:
> Eli Turkel wrote:
> >
> > Tragically, the Jewish community has a tendency to quarrel among
> > themselves and to constantly draw red lines to put much of the  
> > rest of Judaism beyond the pale.
<snip>

> > There was even a case in recent years of Rav Eliyashiv's car 
> > being attacked because of a psak halacha.
> >
> >
> [Daniel Eidensohn replied:]
> There was an Symposium:"On Divided and Distinguished Worlds" in
> Tradition
> Winter 1992. Rabbi Moshe Eisemann page 32-34 said:
> It is simply wrong to
> claim in general
> terms, that we are divided by trivialities. Are these divisions
> tragic? Yes and
> no. A mahloket leshem shamayim...is not all bad. A mahloket shelo
> leshem
> shamayim is , of course, catastrophic. Who are we to judge whether
> the issues
> which divide us belong to the one category or to the other? for
> those of us who
> tend to minimize such differences and to view them as
> insignificant, there is
> the following to consider: there may well be such a thing as too
> much
> tolerance. If I can remain cool and accepting in the face of
> perceived
> heresies, then perhaps it is not because I love humanity so much
> but because I
> am concerned too little for Jewish truth - for G-d....

RDE's reply to RET seems to imply that the phenomena that RET refers
to are not all that bad.  After all, he implies, the non-acceptance
of other groups derives from a concern for Jewish truth, and this
leads to segments of the Jewish community treating other segments as
being "beyond the pale."

I did not read the Tradition article, but it is my guess that R.
Eisemann is legitimizing the existence of divisions, not the
treatment of others as being beyond the pale.  For example, most
Litvaks may not agree with Satmar, but they don't consider them
beyond the pale.  OTOH, many are starting to consider messianic
Lubavitchers to be beyond the pale.  And certainly, Conservative &
Reform are considered beyond the pale.  It certainly becomes
problematic when everyone different from my group is treated as
beyond the pale.

Someone on the Tachlis list who lives in Israel and is borderline
charedi was describing the problems he has encountered in trying to
straddle the line.  He is sending some of his children to dati-leumi
schools and some to charedi schools.  Each of his children has
received lots of flak from their peers for having siblings in a
different group.  In fact, this Tachlis member has advised certain
members of the Passaic community who similarly straddle the fence
that they will have great difficulty in doing so in Israel;
consequently, those people have decided not to make Aliyah.  I find
this tragic.

I believe that there is plenty of room for members of various
subdivisions of the frum community to recognize their differences
(and consider them important), even consider their particular form of
avodat Hashem to be superior to that of other groups, yet maintain
cordial relations with members of the other subdivisions. 
(Reminscent of the relations between the students of Bet Shamai and
Bet Hillel.)

Personally, I prefer the model of elu va'elu divrei elokim chayim. 
There are many paths towards avodat Hashem, and each person is
blessed with his/her own chochot and netiyot which make them best
suited to a particular derech.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

In response to Reb Shlomo Godick and Reb David Glassner, I think we all
agree that the current style of "chassidic" music is not at all what real
spiritual neginah was meant to be.  The point that I was trying to make
was only that I don't believe the problem with the music is the
"tumah" origins of the tunes and/or styles.  I recall being told so many
times how terrible it is that today's Jewish singers are borrowing from
the "goyim" and that any music that comes from rock music is "tamey" etc.
It is this contention that I disagree with.  There are contemporary love
songs that I think could easily be converted to holiness, and other
examples.  I was pointing out that any style of music, regardless of its
origins in the dark world of tumah can be made into beautiful and
inspiring neginah. I think we agree on this point.
Reb Shlomo Carlebach was mentioned, by the way, BeOznay Shamati mipiv,
that when my great grandfather came to New York during WWII, that Reb
Shlomo went to his tisch as a young boy, and his experience there inspired
him to devote his life to neginah.  I am very much inspired by his
music.   I also do not believe that today's
music is very spiritual at all, primarily for the reasons which I have
stated, but not because it originated in Tumah.
In addition, in response to our esteemed listowner's request for ideas for
spiritual hisorrerus, singing in shul is to me the most powerful
hissorrerus of all, challenged only by singing at the shabbos/yom tov
table.  Although I don't daven in a Modzitzer Shtiebel right now (there
aren't any in Chicago where I live) there it is very much assumed that
people will sing along with the chazzan, whether or not he is in the
middle of chazzaras hashatz.
May we All be zocheh to see the rebuilding of Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh,
and may we meet tommorrow at the Binyan Bayis shlishi, singing the shir
chodosh together.
Shaul weinreb

R Eli Turkel writes:
> Chazon Ish writes in his published letters that if one does not
> literally beleive in all that Chazal state anywhere then his
>shechitah is pasul.

Would you please provide the source? I ask because this doesn't seem to be
in accord with Kovetz Igros I:206 where the Chazon Ish says many aggados
represent kabbalistic mysteries (sod bechochmas ho'emess).

Yisrael Herczeg

*********************


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