Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 158

Tuesday, August 10 1999

• Erroneous P'sak
• Sanhedrin
• Kashrus
• Kashrus 2
• Re: Erroneous P'sak
• curses
• Re: Allegory - Distortion of my comments
• LA shootings

    I am puzzled by something Chana/Heather Luntz wrote in V3 #155, that 
"yiras shamayim in a posek is where that posek genuinely knows that he will 
be judged for the psak that he gives, if too makil, for being over on the 
Torah, and if too machmir, for every drop of pain suffered by those who 
receive the psak from following it."

    Why is not the posek who is too machmir -- who declares assur that which 
is muttar -- "over on the Torah"?  (And by the way, those who follow a p'sak 
that is "too machmir" may not suffer pain as a result, and those who follow a 
p'sak that is "too makil" may.)

    Jeff Zuckerman

    I was startled by the List's recent reaction (to the very limited extent 
there was any) to the notion that the future Sanhedrin could declare that 
"t'anu" does not mean to fast, and that we would thereafter all eat and drink 
on Yom Kippur.  The consensus seemed to be that this would be within the 
power of the Sanhedrin.

    In light of the discussion of a false prophet that we read in the parsha 
this past Shabbos, is there anything a Sanhedrin could do that would 
delegitimize it?  In other words, could there be a false Sanhedrin?  What if 
the Sanhedrin were to declare that the story of the mabul was an allegory?  
or that the stories of yetzias Mitzrayim, k'rias Yam Suf, and/or ma'amad Har 
Sinai were allegories?  or that physical tefillin need not be worn?  or that 
Jesus of Nazareth was Moshiach, and would soon return to complete his 
mission?  Are there any limits, and what could k'lal Yisroel do if the 
Sanhedrin breached those limits?

    Sources, please.

    Jeff Zuckerman

My wife received as a present some jams with the information provided below.
If participants and lurkers with connections (or connections to connections)
to the contemporary German (or European) Jewish community, could forward
this information to determine the kosher status of the product, Rav
Hamachshir, address, phone number, it would be helpful  (read: +ACI-chesed+ACI-).
Suggestions are welcome.  It's packaged so nicely and looks good and would
be a shame to give away if I can raise the nitzotzos myself.

The product is: ZENTIS brand +ACI-Bel Royal Gourmet Preserves, Jellies,
Marmalade.+ACI- Manufactured by Franz Zentis GMBH +ACY- Co., 52070 Aachen, Germany.

E-mail: nwitty+AEA-ix.netcom.com

(Apologies for nonsense code in previous posting.)

My wife received as a present some jams with the information provided below.
If participants and lurkers with connections (or connections to connections)
to the contemporary German (or European) Jewish community, could forward
this information to determine the kosher status of the product, Rav
Hamachshir, address, phone number, it would be helpful  (read: +ACI-chesed+ACI-).
Suggestions are welcome.  It's packaged so nicely and looks good and would
be a shame to give away if I can raise the nitzotzos myself.

The product is: ZENTIS brand +ACI-Bel Royal Gourmet Preserves, Jellies,
Marmalade.+ACI- Manufactured by Franz Zentis GMBH +ACY- Co., 52070 Aachen, Germany.

E-mail: nwitty+AEA-ix.netcom.com

In a message dated 8/9/99 11:11:59 AM EST, JZUCKESQ@aol.com writes:

>    Why is not the posek who is too machmir -- who declares assur that which 
>  is muttar -- "over on the Torah"?

It depends why he is Machmir, if out of doubt then it is not a matter of Bal 
Tosif, (the Gemoroh in Eiruvin just calls a Machmir according to every one a 
Ksil, not Oveir on the Torah).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

> 
> 
> I have heard from people close to the Satmar Rebbe, that he never cursed
> another Jew 

I know nothing about curses and this particulat incident but there were
cases of one rebbe putting another rebbe into cherem.

Eli Turkel

I have been away for a week (always good to leave after dropping a 
bomb-shell) and am just now getting back to reading some of the fall-out of 
my comment about mesora.

I have not yet read through the entire batch of journals, but feel I must 
respond to one particular comment immediately.

<<
I credit the honesty of one of the most sever of my critics here today,
who concedes - in his opinion, it seems, corageously, while in my mind, in
a way that brings to mind "al da vadai ka'bachina" - that his Judaism is
what he has chosen, and that mesorah is but relatively insignificant. It
is not Chazal's religion that we received in humility and cognizance of
their greatness. It is our approaching their buffet table and picking and
choosing based on our superior epicurean expertise.
>>

RYGB...

I hardly saw myself as one of your most severe critics.  Maybe one who 
criticized your style, as well as your comments, although I have had precious 
little to say about the sources you have brought up so far.  My comments have 
been almost exclusively to your putting words in other people's mouths, as 
you have done yet again, this time with my words.  Distortion of comments 
might incite one against another, but does little to really resolve the 
issues at hand.

My personal beliefs, which you so freely attack without really reading what I 
wrote, but rather putting your spin to my words, are hardly mine alone.  
Nowhere in my comments did I say anything of the sort that my "Judaism is 
what he has chosen, and that mesorah is but relatively insignificant"

Try reading what people write before you attack them.  What I said was that 
we have accepted upon ourselves the mesora, and that is what makes it 
binding.  We accepted it before it was "mesora", we accepted it as it was 
taking place.  The we is not me personally, but Klal Yisrael collectively.  
And when we get a Sanhedrin back again, they will be empowered to overturn 
most of what was previously decided.  This does not mean that they will in 
fact do such a thing.  But they will have the power and the right to do so 
should they desire.  That is the meaning of Yiftach b'doro kiShmuel b'doro.  
Or do you have another understanding of this?  (I have been told that some 
people have commented that g'zeros can not necessarily be overturned, which 
is why in my original comment I said that large parts can be overturned, and 
not everything).

My comments were about a system of halacha, one that, I think if you took the 
time to actually think about what I wrote, you might even agree with.  Actual 
practice of halacha had nothing to do with my comments.  I do not pick and 
choose, as you put it, from a buffet table.  I accept our mesora as coming 
from giants, which is why I believe that when we get the opportunity to have 
the power to change things, little will in reality change.  But that does not 
preclude the possibility for change.

Nor does it alter in any way how or why our mesora is binding upon us.  The 
very same Chazal that you quote and that I quote, grappled with the 
understanding of the phrase kiymu v'kiblu.  They see it as a willing 
re-affirmation of a previously forced acceptance.  If the mesora is binding 
just because it is there, why the need for kiymu?  Obviously Chazal saw the 
need for willing acceptance in order for there to be a binding nature upon 
us.  What I say is far from heretical; in fact, it is quite mainstream.  And 
of that, yes, I am proud.

Save your tears.  

<<
I see no point in continuing to correspond. 
>>

Another point on which we agree.  Will the wonders ever cease?

<<
Indeed with the exception of
two-three other individuals, it seems that I am here a kol koreh
ba'miidbar. But I thank everyone for educating me as to the view of
certain segments of Orthodoxy today.
>>

Ayn kol anos g'vurah.  Maybe chalusha.

Eliyahu Teitz
Jewish Educational Center
Elizabeth, NJ

There is a breaking story of shootings about an hour and a half ago at  a
JCC in Granada Hills in or near Los Angeles in which at least five were hit,
including two children under 8.   Police are still searching for the lone
gunman.   Does anyone on the list, particularly those in L.A. , yet know who
was shot?   News sites on the web have not posted any names.

//Avi
Avram Sacks
sacksa@cch.com
Chicago, IL

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]