Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 010

Tuesday, September 21 1999

• Re: Bris on eighth day
• 3 meals on Rosh hashana
• ANV--definition of Rav Hirsch
• RE: Adam as Prophet
• RE: Saying Slicoth at any time
• Angels, Women and Gender
• Re:Tekiya - teru'a

Gershon Dubin asked: <<< Can someone ... locate for me the thought that
milah is after seven days [i.e., on the eighth day -A.M.] so the baby can
have the experience of Shabbos before the Bris? >>>

I discussed this at the bris of my b'chor, and then I revised my ideas
for his Bar Mitzvah. Here is an adaptation of what I said then:

Thirteen years ago, I asked the traditional question, namely "Why is a
bris on the eighth day?" The answer commonly given is to insure that the
baby has experienced a Shabbos prior to his bris.

If a boy is born on Sunday, his bris is on the following Sunday, which is
the eighth day of his life. But according to the above answer, the
seventh day would be enough; he could have his bris on Shabbos. The
seventh day would also be fine for a baby born on Shabbos day; he has
experienced Shabbos now, and can have his bris at any time at all!

And if you say that a full Shabbos is needed, we don't have that now!
Under the present system, a boy born Shabbos afternoon gets his bris the
following Shabbos morning, with much less than 24 hours of Shabbos having
gone by. A ninth day should be required!

So I concluded that the eighth-day requirement is to insure that every
boy experience an Erev Shabbos, a Friday evening. The experience of
Kabbalas Shabbos, as in the phrase "kidesh alav hayom", is something
which every boy should have before his bris. This is what the eighth-day
requirement insures.

But a few days later, a good friend showed me that the same speech could
lead to an entirely different conclusion. The reason for the eight days
could be to make sure that every baby boy experiences a *Motzaei* Shabbos
before his bris, that every baby must experience how Shabbos *leaves*!

I realized that my friend was correct. And then I realized that even he
did not go far enough. No matter when a boy is born, if he has his bris
on the eighth day, then he will have experienced exactly one Friday
evening, one Saturday evening, one Sunday evening, and so on.

When we say that the mitzvah of bris milah is docheh Shabbos, we usually
mean that a bris is allowed on Shabbos, even though elective surgery is
forbidden. But actually it means more than that. It is docheh Shabbos -
it pushes Shabbos away. To have a bris milah on the eighth day, Shabbos
is just another day of the week.

.... At the Bar Mitzvah drasha, I continued with the idea that the mitzva
of a bris has nothing to do with Shabbos, but with the experience of
watching one day end and another begin, and how important it is to make
every day count for something important. Which is a nice speech to a Bar
Mitzvah boy, but I am still lost as to why a bris is on the eighth day.

Akiva Miller

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In response to Daniel Israel, the accepted Psak is

>>>3 meals (on 2 loafs) on Shabbath

>>>2 meals (2 loafs)for Yom tov/ RH, 


>>>>Passover Seder has one meal on 2 1/2 loaves

I once heard from the Talner Rebbe (Isidore Twersky)
that
	>Pleasure (ONG) is emphasized on Shabbath
	>happiness before God is emphasized on YT

This explains some of the chilukim between the holidays
I would therefore be surprised if ANYBODY wanted 
3 meals on RH

Russell
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[Sorry I haven't written...but Hurricane Floyd
knocked out electricity in Baltimore for 36 hours
I still owe a posting on DM/ DM which I will
get to BLI neder tomorrow or Monday]


Rav Hirsch defines ANV (Nu 12) as 
	>>responding CORRECTLY to EVERY
	>>situation

He derives it from its root ANH

Thus Moses
	>did not mind Miryams insult
	>did        mind Korachs insult

Moses was an ANV since he knew when to forgive
and when to push.

I think Rav Hirsch's contribution is that ANV 
has a connotation of BOTH meekness and
pushing

Russell
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BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il cites the list of prophets
according to various authorities.

NOTE: This list refers to the 48 public prophets
that the Jewish people had. It has NO bearing
one way or the other on whether Adam was
a prophet.

As to my proof that Adam was a prophet--it
is simple

---We have 2 specific dialogs between God 
and Adam...hence he was a prophet (he received
the 7 mitzvoth of Noach for all generations...so
it wasn't just the dreams (like Avimelech or Laban)
he was a real prophet)

--The Gmarrah ascribes authorship of Ps 92 to
him (But I could live without this proof)

My novelty is NOT claiming Adam was  a
prophet but rather that Gen 1 is speaking
about the creation of prophecy and linking
this to Adam being a prophet

Russell
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Eli Turkel writes

>Rav Soloveitchik answers that we do not have permission to make up our
>own prayers. Shemonei esrei is limited to 3 times a day, not whenever
>we want. He firther shows that selichot is similar to shemonei esrei
>and in fact has an ashrei and kaddish before it like minchah and
>tachanun afterwards like shacharit.


I would like to see the actual arguments. IN the meantime

---Shmoneh esray IS prayer
---Slicoth is VIDUI--confession.

Maybe you can't pray more than 3 times a day....but 
you SHOULD confess EVERY TIME you do a sin.

The point that SLICOTH should be said whenever it is 
possible is well taken....it is a Biblical obligation (To confess)
and by placing the SLICOTH at queer hours we are violating
placing a stumbling block before the blind (since many people
will not come).

Of course...if you are assured of a large attendance we SHOULD
stick to those hours which are PROPITIOUS TIMES (ETH RTZON)

So I don't disagree with having it at Chatzoth per se...but I do
want to emphasize that BDIEVED if a Shule Rabbi thought it
wise he could make SLICOTH right after MAARIV since its
essence is CONFESSION which is not PRAYER.

(If someone cites the Rav please don't refer me to some book...
please quote his exact arguments...the given quotation looks
very fishy to me (at present)

Russell
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[My wife, Debra Fran Baker, asked me to forward this to the list: -jjb]

This Shabbat, our rabbi gave a class on the laws of Yom Kippur.  At one
point, he talked about the custom of wearing white clothing.  He said
that one reason men wore white clothing was to emulate angels, but women
did not need to wear white for that purpose because they could not be
like angels since angels were all male.  Later on, he said that women
didn't need to stand during the long prayers with their feet together
for the same reason.

[He also gave the reason that the white clothing is like burial shrouds,
which reminds us of our ultimate end, which applies equally to both men
and women. -jjb]

I had a number of problems with this and a number of unanswered
questions.  

Number one, I never knew angels had a particular gender. Is this so?

Number two, what does gender have to do with it?  That is, so far as I
can see, even if angels have gender and that gender is solely male, how
does maleness make it *more* possible for men to be like angels?  They
share no other attributes.  

Number three, does this mean that not only do I not have to stand with
my feet together during the *repetition* of the Shmona Esray (something
I've taken upon myself recently for various reasons, including that no
one talks to you when you do that) but I can actually sit down and relax
for the silent one as well?  If my femaleness is sufficient cause for me
not to be like an angel, then is there any point in my trying to imitate
one at all?

I'd appreciate any answers anyone can give me.  Until then, of course, I
will continue to pray as I was taught...standing with my feet together.

Thank you.
Debra Fran Baker
dfbaker@panix.com

..In "Areshes S'fasenu", why do we
> refer to the sound of "tekiAseynu", in the singular? Wouldn't it make
> more sense to refer to the "tekiOseynu", the shofar blasts, in the
> plural?

An alternative explanation:

1.  An alternative nusach found in many nusach Ashkenaz manuscripts is teru'atenu 
instead of teki'atenu. (See Goldschmidt machzor for six
examples.)

2. An old custom is 40 kolot rather than 100. Thirty kolot before musaf and only one 
"teru'ah" in Malch., Zichr, and Shof. i.e., ten kolot (using one of the three  teru'ah types 
for each).

********************


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