Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 015

Saturday, September 25 1999

• Rashi, Bavli
• Re: DUI
• Tosfos & changes in practice
• Re: Tosfos & changes in practice
• Baltimore / Washington Simhat Beit HaSho'eva
• CI + CC
• ashenaz minhagim

Our esteemed listowner writes:

>I would like to see enough examples of this in order to show that this is a
>trend. I, like most of you, have been learning T for a number of years now,
>and I thought their agenda is pretty obvious: they want consistancy. The
>typical "v'im tomar" is bringing a gemara that appears to be soseir, and
>they use pilpul to get a single consistant view of the halachah.

On many occasions, Tosafot tries to reconcile the Gemara with
contemporary Ashkenazic practice (whether such practice has Palestinian
roots is another matter).  There are many classic examples of this, such
as the famous Tosafot on mayyim aharonim, as well as the first Tosafot
in Avodah Zarah.

Hag same'ah,

Eli Clark 

In Avodah 4#13, "chaim" <integrity@technologist.com> wrote:
>> no DUI, is not driving under the influence, BUT
duchenim under the influence!!!...
yes, as we all know in OH 125:38, there is an explicit halacha on just what
DUI is/is not!!...
To make a long story short, Every Simchat Torah there are young energetic
yeshiva bochrim in my shul, who [are Kohanim].
Some skip kiddush and Fast till 4-5 p.m. (musaf time after our lively
hakafot), so they can mekayem mitzvat "L'baraech et amo yisrael b'ahava"
le'mehadrim (i.e. without any chasha of DUI.)
Some just can't resist and make kiddush after the first Hakafa... <<
Steve Katz <katzco@sprintmail.com> responded in 4#14:
> 1. Have you considered letting the priest bestow their blessings during
the
shacharit service? <
Time for someone to explain why this (Birchas Kohanim, instead of the
SHaTZ's "Elokainu" insertion, within the Shacharis-Amidah chazarah) doesn't
occur in many shuls as a matter of course (as my friend RWolpoe and others
will testify, it does occur in "Breuer's", and I don't believe that the
negative reason of avoiding chashash post-Kiddush-DUI is the [sole]
reason).
> 2. Sounds to me that there is some confusion. Simchat Torah is not Purim.
<
Indeed, the DUI issue presumably exists whenever, on a given day, there's
an intersection between the set of Kiddush-makers and the set of
Birchas-Kohanim-bestowers.

A good Shabbos and Chag Someach from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

Hon. Micha Berger wrote:
 
> I only noticed one example of rationalizing current practice: T (as well as
> Rashi) invoke the Rosh on the number of knots for tzitzis. According to the
> ...
> But in this case, it's not particularly Ashkenazi. Only the Teimanim follow
> the Gemara (via the Rambam, of course). Sephardim also make 5 knots.

My two classic examples are:

1) Pesachim around 105: poreis mappah umikadesh, that this has become
our standard way of making kiddush (with covered challah), because
in our day we don't eat like they did.  They ate on little TV tables,
which could be set in the kitchen and then carried in after kiddush.
Now we eat on big tables, which can't be carried around, so we cover
the bread to pretent it isn't there.

2) Megillah 19a: meliach: the processing of klaf changed all over the
world between the time of the Gemara and the time of Tosfos, such that
in the old days, they whitened the klaf with flour and salt, while  in
the Middle Ages they used the modern process with lime and gallnuts.

So if the Gemara requires "floured and salted" klaf, but we can't get
that any more ,how can our megillot be kosher?  Tosfos holds tha tthe
crucial factor is the *effect* of the processing, to make the surface
hard to falsify (by erasing & rewriting), and our process is functionally
equivalent to that of the ancients, therefore it's kosher.

I've seen others, but can't recall them right now.

I seem to recall learning at least one last year which struck me as
possibly one of these Ashkenaz/Sepharad EY/Bavel differences, probably
in Sukkah, but I'll have to check my notes.  Tos & Rosh lined up on 
one side, and the Sephardim on the other side.

Perhaps I missed someone else mentioning this example already, but there's
the famous defense for spending almost all of one's learning time on gemara,
because Talmud Bavli is ballul (if I recall the word-play correctly) all
three sh'lishim that we're supposed to divide our learning time into.

I still think that to say that T's agenda is to be meyasheiv shas to Ashkenazi
practice is too strong of a wording -- even if I have to retract my statement
as being too far to the other extreme.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 24-Sep-99: Shishi
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 43a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Just decided:

I'll be having my annual Simhat Beit Hasho'eva Wednesday night
September 29 at 7.30 at my house:

6206 Cross Country Blvd
Baltimore

e-mail or call for directions. I will unfortunately be in my 
office on Hol HaMoed. The number is 410-345-3076.

Bring whatever you like, as long as it's pre-packaged. We'll be having 
salads and a barbecue (the meat is halak Beit Yosef, from Shlomo's in
Baltimore), with the food preparation being done under the supervision of
the rav of my beit k'nesset, Rabbi Emanuel Golfeyz of Ner Yisroel.

All are welcome.


---sam

Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:27:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: Rashi, Bavli

<snip>
Speaking, as RRW does, about the difference between lomdus and practice:

I always thought that the Chazon Ish's shiurim were of the former, not
the
latter. The CI is (in general) far too mimetic to think he dismissed the
amount of wine we've been drinking all these years. And, lima'aseh, the
kos
he made kiddush on was smaller than a CI revi'is. (Or so legend claims
his
daughter, who inherited the kos, found.)
	The legend is about the Chofetz Chaim,  not the Chazon Ish.  The Chazon
Ish had no children.  I spoke to a grandson of the CC and he told me the
legend is just that:  not true.

Good Yom Tov
Gershon

Grossman (Chachmei Ashkenaz harishonim) has a extensive discussion of
the influence of Israeli/Babylonian institutions on Asheknazi customs
A few remarks

1. There is no evidence that Rabbenu Gershon ever visited Bavel or was
   a talmid of Rav Hai Gaon.

2. One of the major pushers for the Ashkenaz-israel connection was
   Agus. He also introduced the difference between learning Bavli
   and psak.

3. Grossman feels that the case is not that strong and in particular rejects
   any difference between limud and psak. He points that they there are
   several responsa from the Babylonian Geonim to chachmei Ashkenaz.

   In any case the use of the Bavli was gradual and certainly was not
   developed suddenly by Rashi. 
   In general after the crusades Chachme Zurfat did not quote the early
   ashkenazi scholars very much and relied mainly on the Bavli,
   for example, Raavan. On the other hand the German kehillot,
   that survived did extensively rely on the previous generations.
   That does not mean that Rashi never quoted Rabbenu Gershon only
   that in his and baale tosaphot teshuvot there is limited use of
   teshuvot of pre-crusade respons while in Chachme Ashkenaz of
   the same era there was a much greater reliance.

Chag sameach,
Eli Turkel

********************


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