Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 033

Tuesday, October 12 1999

• objections to women yoatzot
• Yoatzot
• Re: Women Yoatzot
• Re: Avodah V4 #32: Story of Mizrachi-Chicago
• Re: Avodah V4 #32: Re: Halakhic Advisors
• The Story of Mizrachi-Chicago
• We want MAshiach
• Re: Changes in Nature and Hil. Niddah
• Re: Avodah V4 #32: Story of Mizrachi-Chicago
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• RE: Avodah V4 #32: Another view: Rav Yisrael Ariel
• Re: objections to women yoatzot

RYGB objects to Jeffrey Woolf thusly:

> > six bohanim and they are Talmide Hakhamim of the first caliber.There is
> > absolutely no room but to be pleased that learned women have created a
> > legitimate niche for themselves within halakhah, and one which will only
> 
> Incorrect. There is plenty of room to be other than pleased.

I think someone else made a similar statement in the last day or so, but
with no elaboration.  Could someone explain precisely what the objections
are?  Are they halachic, public policy, or something else in nature?

Thanks.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

Allowing for RYGB's sarcasm (which I resent), I still have yet to hear
what's wrong with this development.

					Jeffrey Woolf

In message , Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> writes
>
>For now, I have a simple question: If such fabulous success can be
>achieved with the girls, why, indeed, is it not happening with the boys?

Assuming this is a serious question, there is a very simple answer.  If
you are a boy, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of places where
you can go and learn.  And the very best are scattered among them.

If you are a woman, well, I think there are between four and five
(Drisha, Matan, Brovenders plus Toenet programme, Nishmat and maybe one
other Israeli institution that I am less aware of) and most of the woman
on the programme in question are graduates of a least two of them.
Besides which, only the most dedicated and able tend to stay at it,
others get siphoned off into other (eg tanach) programmes or marriage
and family or career or whatever. That means that gathered together on a
programme like this are the creme de la creme. If you could gather
together the most brilliant and dedicated illuim selected from every
yeshiva in the world, I have absolutely no doubt you could achieve
equivalent results (in fact, I suspect that each in his own place is
doing exactly that).  Just that they are not gathered in one place and
they are surrounded by so many more "average" students, that the effect
is hidden. (Also, I suspect that the average age is older than you are
anticipating - I would guess that the average graduate is at least your
(YGB's) age or older - and that while many may not have had the access
to learning that you have had, but they have been in learning an
equivalent amount of time - now maybe that is not a sufficiently high
level for you, but in most places that is a sufficient level to posken
basic taharas hamishpacha shialas, assume that the Rav in question has
had the requisite shimush in the subject - which is what this programme
provides in spades).
>
>YGB
>

Kind Regards

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:58:58 -0600
>From: david.nadoff@bfkpn.com
>Subject: The Story of Mizrachi-Chicago
>
>In more
>recent years,
>the behavior of the Chicago community in the face of Rav Aharon's
>opposition to
>the
>Rogers Park eiruv was highly reminiscent of the Mizrachi affair: The
>community,
>following a group of self-empowered lay leaders, went p'sak-shopping and
>produced a
>permissive p'sak on the basis of which the eiruv project proceeded over Rav
>Aharon's
>objection.

As one of the lay individuals (I did not claim any leadership position in
Chicago) who was involved in the West Rogers Park Eiruv (I wrote the
"guidebook" under the guidance of the Rabbanim who spearheaded the Eiruv),
I feel compelled to say that you are grossly misrepresenting the story of
the Eiruv.  The so-called lay leadership were Rabbis of various shuls
including several who are respected talmidei chachamim in their own right.

The problem was that Rav Aharon and / or his talmidim were attempting to
impose an approach to Eiruv that is clearly **NOT** the prevalent approach
in the US; in other words trying to impose a "Gezeirah, She'ein Rov
Hatzibur Yachol La'amod bo".  It is one thing to not rely on the Eiruv
yourself or to tell your talmidim not to do so; it's quite another when you
try to impose your views on others when you were not consulted.

hg


.............................................................................
                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
.............................................................................

>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:20:15 -0500 (CDT)
>From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
>Subject:
>
<snip>
>
>Incorrect. There is plenty of room to be other than pleased.
>
>YGB
>

I get the impression that you believe that the presence of two X
chromosomes, as opposed to an X and Y chromosome, of necessity renders one
incapable of a high level of learning of halachic material with extremely
high relevance to those who possess two X chromosomes.  Could you please
explain explicitly why you believe this is so?

A few other points of interest and relevance:

a)  As a whole, women's eyes are better at fine color distinctions, a
useful trait for advising on questions of taharat hamishpacha.

b)  Many congregational rabbis lauded the certification, noting that
upwards of 75% of orthodox women fail to consult (male) halachic
authorities on questions of taharat hamishpacha, mostly because of
discomfort in discussing these matters with another male.  One of the
Rabbis who publicly announced that he was in favor of the women halachic
advisors was Rabbi K. Auman of the Young Israel of Flatbush who is very
very far from being a rabid left winger.

c)  According to the article I read, the woman who has been through Sha"s
twice did it by **TEACHING** daf yomi starting from when she was in medical
school (or maybe before).  I suspect that she is reasonably intellegent
woman, at least as intelligent as 95% of guys in various and sundry
yeshivot.

hg


.............................................................................
                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
.............................................................................

In V4#32 Daniel Schwartz wrote:

>I do want to point out however that despite R. Aaron's objections, solid htough
they may be in
>Halacha, despite his legal education, he never practiced law.  As an attorney,
I seriously
>doubt that once the contract of sale was signed, it would have been possible,
much
>less easy to void the sale. Proving fraud is a very difficult matter. Mizrachi
would have had to
>prove by  a preponderance of the evidence that the Buddhist sect knew that
Mizrachi would
>not sell to them had the true identity of the purchasers been known. . . .

Apart from the contract theory of fraud in the inducement and the tort theory of
fraud, both of which involve difficult questions of proof, Rav Aharon's legal conclusion to
which Harry
Maryles referred could have been based on the real estate/contract doctrine of
undisclosed
principal which, in some jurisdictions at least, is far easier to prove.
Personally, I don't recall
there being a firm contract in effect at the time Rav Aharon announced his
opposition to the
transaction, but I can't say there wasn't.

R'Micha asks:

 moshiach: there's a kamatz katan under the mem, no?

Your last word is correct. The answer is No.  If there were, there would be a dagesh in 
the shin. But there isn't.

R' Sam Ominsky asks "how do you transliterate a gimmel refuya into English".

The answer to that is simply to add an "h" after the "g".  In many languages the gh 
sound became so refuya that it vanishes. I notice that through the night although I 
don't pay attention to the three lost sounds in this sentence.  .
Many people eat yogurt. Older folk eat yoghurt.  In Turkey they eat yo-urt (probably 
every ni-t).  When I pronounced yoghurt in Turkey with a gimmel rafa, my Turkish 
companion told me I sounded like his grandfather who came from a small mountain 
village,
 And then in Dutch all gimmels are refuyot and also unvoiced so Van Gogh sounds like 
Fan Khokh
Don't forget the Scots who have a braw bricht moonlicht nicht. And then, in Russian 
the rafeh sign looks not like an "h" but like a "b". 

Similarly in Philly the ph is pei rafa and  the th in thick and thin is the tav rafa and kh is 
a kaf rafa etc.,etc. And in the word MAshiach we often add an "h" to the c, or more 
correctly add a c to the h because we cannot put a dot under the h in our e-mail 
programs.

There are many factors (dietary, stress, autonomic) that can affect
the menstrual cycle. My guess is that in the past 65 years, both
oligomenorrhea and normal cycle lengths with anovulation or short luteal
phase have increased as a result of dietary factors [e.g. vegetarianism
may induce menstrual cycle irregularity (See: Am J Clin Nutrition 1999;
70(Suppl 3) 549s); decreased dietary fat affects autonomic activity
(Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiology 1999 26:656-660); increased phytoestrogens
in the diet (e.g. soya) or pseudo-estrogens leached from plastic containers]
as well as changes in environmental lighting (effect of pineal hormones
on fertility).

And with the primacy of the autonomic nervous system regulating ovulation,
reproduction, and cervical secreations (see: Human Reproduction 1993;8:1168;
Pharmacol Rev 1972;24:657-736) *anything* that affects the ANS will effect
changes in cycle length (and this ranges from watching too much television (!)
to type of mattress used for sleeping, from native language spoken to
sleep-work schedules).

A recent paper (late 1998) showed that in primitive societies (Africa, etc.)
cycle length has not changed over the past 3 generations.

To sum up: it is very likely that due to environmental factors (diet, stress,
autonomic) a VEST KAVUA today is quite rare in the USA, Europe or Israel.

Josh

Before you cast aspersions on a godol, do you know for a fact that the Rosh
HaYeshivah instigated anything. Furthermore was it not an insult not to consult
with THE Talmud Chacham of the city; how many poskim had been asked to come to
Chicago to built an eruv who refused because if was the home of RAS.
I am also curious who these "tilmidei chachamim in their own right" are.
steve katz

Hershel Ginsburg wrote:

>
>
> As one of the lay individuals (I did not claim any leadership position in
> Chicago) who was involved in the West Rogers Park Eiruv (I wrote the
> "guidebook" under the guidance of the Rabbanim who spearheaded the Eiruv),
> I feel compelled to say that you are grossly misrepresenting the story of
> the Eiruv.  The so-called lay leadership were Rabbis of various shuls
> including several who are respected talmidei chachamim in their own right.
>
> The problem was that Rav Aharon and / or his talmidim were attempting to
> impose an approach to Eiruv that is clearly **NOT** the prevalent approach
> in the US; in other words trying to impose a "Gezeirah, She'ein Rov
> Hatzibur Yachol La'amod bo".  It is one thing to not rely on the Eiruv
> yourself or to tell your talmidim not to do so; it's quite another when you
> try to impose your views on others when you were not consulted.
>
> hg
>
> ............................................................................
>                              Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
>               Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
>                           P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
>                                   Efrat, 90435
>                                     Israel
>               Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
>                          e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
> ............................................................................

On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Freda B Birnbaum wrote:

> RYGB objects to Jeffrey Woolf thusly:
> 
> > > six bohanim and they are Talmide Hakhamim of the first caliber.There is
> > > absolutely no room but to be pleased that learned women have created a
> > > legitimate niche for themselves within halakhah, and one which will only
> > 
> > Incorrect. There is plenty of room to be other than pleased.
> 
> I think someone else made a similar statement in the last day or so, but
> with no elaboration.  Could someone explain precisely what the
> objections are?  Are they halachic, public policy, or something else in
> nature? 
> 

I will respond right now to only one aspect that is disturbing in this
matter, v'od chazon la'moe'd.

A respected Conservative Rabbi, Jack Riemer, has written that the full
throttle egalitarian tendencies of his movement disturb him, because,
expereince has shown, in the Protestant chruch, that where women are given
equal footing as men, the women then become the predominant players in the
Church, and the men will tend to gravitate to the other spheres that more
naturally attract them.

This problem will not afflict the Charedi world:

1. Talmud Torah remains the primary sphere that counts.
2. Women Poskot will not be accepted.

Etc.

This problem will afflict the MO world:

1. There are other spheres that count for men on a par with TT.
2. Women Poskot will be accepted.
3. These women are getting far better training (as far as MO education
goes) than the men.

As one who care deeply about *all* streams of Orthodoxy, therefore, I
foresee grave reprecussions.

There is more than that, but l'eis atta, that will do.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I told myself I was going to stay out of this, especially since I leave 
for the States tomorrow for a week, and therefore will likely not 
respond (at least for a while) to anything that gets written, but this 
post got me to react.

First, to put my own negios on the table:

1. I think I share RYGB's world view to a great extent. There's little 
doubt in my mind that in the US most people would consider me 
"charedi," although here in Israel I don't really feel like part of the 
fold.

2. One of the "yoatzot" happens to be my wife's niece. Thus, if I 
didn't feel that there was some justification for what she has done 
and is doing, I would probably keep silent. We also have some 
connection to Nishmat (which tried very hard to put this program 
under the name "Machon Ariel" but has not been entirely 
successful in doing so), because my wife has attended a Navi shiur 
there for the last 7+ years. 

Having said that....

On 11 Oct 99, at 22:58, Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechh wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Freda B Birnbaum wrote:
> 
> > RYGB objects to Jeffrey Woolf thusly:
> > 
> > > > six bohanim and they are Talmide Hakhamim of the first caliber.There is
> > > > absolutely no room but to be pleased that learned women have created a
> > > > legitimate niche for themselves within halakhah, and one which will only
> > > 
> > > Incorrect. There is plenty of room to be other than pleased.
> > 
> > I think someone else made a similar statement in the last day or so, but
> > with no elaboration.  Could someone explain precisely what the
> > objections are?  Are they halachic, public policy, or something else in
> > nature? 
> > 
> 
> I will respond right now to only one aspect that is disturbing in this
> matter, v'od chazon la'moe'd.
> 
> A respected Conservative Rabbi, Jack Riemer, has written that the full
> throttle egalitarian tendencies of his movement disturb him, because,
> expereince has shown, in the Protestant chruch, that where women are given
> equal footing as men, the women then become the predominant players in the
> Church, and the men will tend to gravitate to the other spheres that more
> naturally attract them.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that women will be or are being 
given "equal footing" as a result of Tova Ganzel and Dena 
Zimmerman being licensed as yoatzot. First, AFAIK it is not 
intended that they pasken halacha in the sense of, for example, 
looking at bdika cloths. And I will go so far as to say that I don't 
think I would want my wife trusting one of them to do so even if 
they were - at least not now. I remember hearing from my posek in 
America that he watched his father-in-law pasken ksomim for 
eighteen years before he dared pasken them himself. Clearly these 
women do not - at least at this stage - have his kind of shimush. 
Whether or not they might in the future is a different issue, but from 
what I understand of this, that is not the intent.

Second, both the women themselves, and Rabbanit Henkin, who 
runs Nishmat, have gone to great pains not to call them "poskot." 
The press may have reported it otherwise, but the press ran to 
Shlomo Benizri and Meir Porush for reactions, and not to R. 
Elyashiv or R. Scheinberg or R. Ovadia. So I don't put much stock 
in what I have read in the press. I don't think Nishmat's not calling 
them "poskot" is just political; I honestly do not believe that they 
intend to attempt to replace the Rabbonim as the decisors of issur 
v'heter in Hilchos Nida or in any other area. 

Third, their expertise is (at least in what they have learned in this 
course) limited to Hilchos Nida. Hilchos Nida is (to me at least) 
clearly an area where the women have a much greater role in the 
assiya than the men do. I think that specifically within Hilchos Nida 
there is a need for many women to have a woman to talk to. I have 
heard from my own posek (who is most definitely in the Charedi 
world, and from what I understand is conceptually in favor of the 
role of the yoatzot) that the biggest problem in Hilchos Nida today 
is that women do not ask shailas and because of that they are 
automatically machmir. This to the extent that when a woman 
comes to him and says she is having fertility problems, his first 
question is who is looking at her bedika cloths. If having yoatzot 
means that these women will ask shailas through the yoatzot 
(which I understand to be a major purpose of the whole program), 
then that is a positive development IMHO. To put it in more graphic 
and parallel terms, suppose R"L you had a urological problem, how 
comfortable would you feel discussing it with a woman doctor 
(forgetting for a minute any halachic problems with TREATMENT 
by a woman urologist - I mean DISCUSSING it)? I know that I 
would feel uncomfortable, and I think that many of our wives feel 
uncomfortable discussing their bodily functions with men other than 
their husbands.

Fourth, keep in mind that to a certain extent women act as their 
own posek in Hilchos Nida. After all, a woman herself determines 
whether a bedika cloth merits being shown to a posek in the first 
place. I know I don't look at my wife's bedika cloths and give her 
MHO about whether or not she needs to ask a shaila, and I 
suspect most other people on this list don't do so either. Having 
yoatzot gives a woman the ability to consult with an expert who will 
help her to determine whether she needs to ask a shaila in the first 
place. Given how much we all learn and forget (including what we 
learned in chosson and kallah classes) that doesn't strike me as a 
bad idea.

Fifth, I think this reflects a pretty low view of men. Why do you 
think that if women learn (and I ask this totally in the abstract 
without getting into the questions of what women should or should 
not learn) and become scholarly that automatically means that 
men would R"L abandon learning? Why are you comparing 
fruhmkeit to lehavdil elef alfei havdolos, the Protestant church? Isn't 
it possible that men who saw their wives learning would learn more 
and concentrate more in an attempt to obtain or maintain their 
edge over their wives in learning (as is often the case, lehavdil, with 
parnassa)? Couldn't children be influenced to shteig as much by a 
mother who cares about Talmud Torah as by a father who cares 
about Talmud Torah? 

In sum, I don't read this as an attempt to make women "equal" 
(whatever that means) in the world of learning. I look at it in purely 
practical terms, and I think the women involved look at it that way 
as well. And in purely practical terms, I think that having women 
yoatzot is required by our current metzius, R"L, and I am willing to 
take the risk that maybe some of the people behind it have an 
"agenda" (which is the only danger I can see here).

> This problem will not afflict the Charedi world:

I don't think it will "afflict" the Charedi world either.

> 1. Talmud Torah remains the primary sphere that counts.

Agreed.

> 2. Women Poskot will not be accepted.

As POSKOT you may well be correct, but as someone to 
approach a posek with a shaila they definitely will be accepted. We 
live in a 99% Charedi neighborhood, and somehow word got out 
that one of the yoatzot is Adina's niece. Adina said she has had 
several calls from Charedi women on our block asking for her 
niece's phone number. 

The analogue here is the situation of toanot rabbanoim in the Batei 
Din here. When the first women toanot completed the course, it 
was widely felt that they would not be accepted, yet they have 
been, even by the Charedi world. The flip side is that we do not 
have women Dayanim, because there is a Halachic bar to that, and 
I don't expect that we will have women Dayanim. Also, AFAIK, the 
women toanot limit themselves to divorce cases.

In fact, lemayseh, there were women involved in obtaining psak for 
Hilchos Nida long before Tova and Dena got their certificates. It's 
no secret that there is a woman herbalist in Yerushalayim that 
other women go to when they suspect that they have bleeding from 
a wound that is not cervical bleeding. The herbalist does an internal 
examination, and if in fact the bleeding is from a wound, she gives 
the woman a note that the woman takes to her posek. I have heard 
of major poskim in Yerushalayim who accept this herbalist's letters.

Moreover, how many times have you called a posek (or in RYGB's 
case, how many times has your wife answered the phone) and 
gotten an answer from the posek's wife because she had heard the 
question so many times before and the Rav wasn't around? I think 
it happens more often than many of us are ready to admit. What's 
different here is that it's "institutionalized" if you will.

> Etc.
> 
> This problem will afflict the MO world:
> 
> 1. There are other spheres that count for men on a par with TT.

I agree that is a problem with the MO world. But I don't think that 
problem arises from having women yoatzot. I think the problem 
arises from a lack of focus on learning in the MO world, in which 
many people often can't decide they seek Torah Im Derech Eretz 
or Derech Eretz Im Torah. All too often, the choice is the latter. (As 
an aside, I note that eight years ago this past Shabbos, I heard a 
drasha from R. Shikovitzky z"l whose theme was that b'zeas 
apecha tochal lechem is an onesh and not a mitzva. That drasha 
serves as a constant mussar shmooze for me). But lack of focus 
on learning was a fact long before these women became yoatzot, 
and it will continue to be a factor so long as "being out in the world" 
is widely regarded as a license to be meikel in many spheres.

> 2. Women Poskot will be accepted.

Again, these women are not intended to be poskot. But keep in 
mind here that what I said before about women not asking shailas 
is likely a greater problem in the MO world than it is in the Charedi 
world, because the whole routine of going to a Rav and asking a 
shaila is, in many instances, a lot less ingrained in the MO world 
than it is in the Charedi world. How many MO poskim do you see 
who set up office hours to answer shailas (a common occurrence 
among Charedi poskim in Yerushalayim)?

> 3. These women are getting far better training (as far as MO education
> goes) than the men.

I think this is partly true, but I also think that these women went 
through more of a selection process than do the men who go into 
the Rabbinate in many Yeshivas. How many men get smicha 
without knowing how to learn a blatt Gemara on their own? I 
suspect more than we would like to admit. But it seems to me that 
the solution to that ought to be to do a better job of selecting and 
educating men and not to say that we won't educate women in an 
area that specifically affects them.

BTW, again, the same thing happened with the toanot rabbonim - 
the first time they took the exam, all of the women who took it 
passed while 70% of the men who took the same exam failed. 
Better selection. Maybe, but not necessarily, better education.

> As one who care deeply about *all* streams of Orthodoxy, therefore, I
> foresee grave reprecussions.

I don't see the grave reprecussions. I think in our present metzius, 
where many women do not ask shailas that they should ask 
because they feel uncomfortable, having a woman with whom they 
can talk it over who can then go and ask the shaila for them can be 
highly beneficial. 

> There is more than that, but l'eis atta, that will do.

I'm interested in hearing the rest of your objections. So far, you 
haven't convinced me....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

The best way to become informed on Rav Yisrael Ariel's views is to read them as they 
are expressed in the Machzorim and Hagaddah printed by the Temple Institute.

He brings lots of details, halachah, philosophy and pictures about Beit HaMikdash and 
the issues relevant to each holiday and the Temple related issues.

You can find them on the temple institute web site as well as in many book stores.

Shoshana

-------------------------------------
Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
Date: 12/10/99
Time: 03:30:13 PM , Israel

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------
Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
"Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
any and all related information would be welcome.

Rabbi Bechhofer raises an interesting point.  the question then is how to
prevent the rift which he fears from occuring.  It seems illogical to
abandon a program which in all probability will lead to  a greater
observance of Taharat HaMishpacha.  Rather, perhaps MO should reexamine the
way it educates it's men and reform that.

----- Original Message -----
From: Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Cc: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: objections to women yoatzot


> I will respond right now to only one aspect that is disturbing in this
> matter, v'od chazon la'moe'd.
>
> A respected Conservative Rabbi, Jack Riemer, has written that the full
> throttle egalitarian tendencies of his movement disturb him, because,
> expereince has shown, in the Protestant chruch, that where women are given
> equal footing as men, the women then become the predominant players in the
> Church, and the men will tend to gravitate to the other spheres that more
> naturally attract them.
>
> This problem will not afflict the Charedi world:
>
> 1. Talmud Torah remains the primary sphere that counts.
> 2. Women Poskot will not be accepted.
>
> Etc.
>
> This problem will afflict the MO world:
>
> 1. There are other spheres that count for men on a par with TT.
> 2. Women Poskot will be accepted.
> 3. These women are getting far better training (as far as MO education
> goes) than the men.
>
> As one who care deeply about *all* streams of Orthodoxy, therefore, I
> foresee grave reprecussions.
>
> There is more than that, but l'eis atta, that will do.
>
> YGB
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
> ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
>
>
>

********************


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