Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 035

Tuesday, October 12 1999

• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• The Story Rav Aaron and HTC
• Re: The Story of Mizrachi-Chicago
• Re: mlacha nekia?
• Social Darwinism
• Women Yoatzot
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• Re: Women Yoatzot
• Re: Women Yoatzot
• Re: Avodah V4 #34: Eiruv Diatribe
• (no subject)
• Re: Avodah V4 #34: Eiruv Diatribe
• Re: The Story Rav Aaron and HTC
• Women Yoatzot: Why not quote simple halachas
• Re: Women Yoatzot: Why not quote simple halachas

In a message dated 10/12/99 2:30:32 PM EST, SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET 
writes:

> Perhaps they have been explored?  Additionally,  what of the issue that many
>  women would rather deal with another woman on these issues?  The chareidim
>  downplay this issue, but it is extremely important
>  
Not to get involved in the Etzem issue, however WRT to the above mentioned 
issue,
the problem is not a new one, and is addressed in the Poskim on Hil. Nidah, 
(some suggest that the husband bring the Maroh and/or question to the Rov), 
the Taharas Yisroel brings the custom to have a women who will bring the 
Maroh to a Rov, likewise problems of bleeding, are commonly sent to (Frumeh) 
doctors or nurses or specially trained in this field, there is no need to be 
Bokee in Hil. Nidah for this, much less in all of Shaas. 

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

--- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:

> HM omits a key fact in his account of the dipute
> between Chicago Mizrachi
> and R' Aharon Soloveichik in the '70s over
> Mizrachi's sale of its facilities to
> Buddhists of the Nishereen Shoshu sect.  He fails to
> mention that after Rav
> Aharon objected to the sale and paskened that it was
> forbidden, Chicago
> Mizrachi procured a written psak from a talmid
> muvhok of the S'reday Aish
> (who then served on the HTC faculty) that the sale
> was not only permitted, but constituted a mitzva.

My intent was to synopsize the Mizrachi story,  I
never intended for my post to be a comprehensive
history of the debacle concerning the the R. Aaron -
Skokie Yeshiva affair.  Suffice it to say that there
was a tremendous animus to R. Aaron in those days due
to many factors, not the least of which was his
immediate alienation of the "Traditional" Rabbinate
who had taken Non-Mechtiza Pulpits.  He proceeded to
Assur any future Musmach from taking a shul w./o a
Mechitza.  All Musmachim had to sign in his notebook a
pledge never to take a shul w/o a mechitza unless he
gave explicit permission (which I believe he never
gave) I signed this document before he signed my
Smicha. 

This was a slap in the face to certain key "Rabbis"
who expected R. Aaron to be a friend.  These Rabbis
had extremely powerful members who were also members
of the HTC Board. In those days, hardly any of the
Bord members were frum, let alone knowledgeable in
Halacha. They were egged on by their Rabbis who were
filled with tremendous animosity towards R. Aaron.

There were other issues with R. Aaron such as the
trouble the Board at HTC had filling the Vacancy of
President of the Yeshiva created by the Death of Dr.
Simon G. Kramer, ZL.  All their canidates were
Traditional (non-mechtza) Rabbis whom R. Aaron
rejected.  He had been promised this type authority
(complete) when he was hired by the Yeshiva in order
to lure him away from YU. R.Aaron could not find a
suitable canidate.  

Also, it's true that Dr. Berkovitz who initially
suppoprted R. Aaron's employ, sided with the
traditional Rabbinate and supported their "right" to
have non-mechitza shuls (for purposes of Kiruv, I
believe) became R. Aaron's arch enemy.

(I am probly the only person who supported R.Aaron
completely and at the same time had an abiding respect
and even admiration for Dr. Berkovitz, although
disagreeing totally with him on this issue.)

There were other issues... but not for now.

As for my point about Mizrachi's demise as regards the
sale of the building, my point was that it was a
pivotal factor but certainly not the ony one as I
indeed did mention. Believe me I am far from kniave
about what's going on in the world of Yahadus and it's
impact on institutions like Mizrachi. 

As for the incident with the Ridbaz, that was a very
sad chapter in Chicago's history.  But it had nothing
to do with HTC. It was a feud with another Major
Talmid Chacham of that era, R. Album.  He was in
charge of Kashrus (Shochtim and Butchers) in Chicago
then and he was a major force.  It was his fifedom and
reputation that was being trashed by the Ridvaz and it
was R. Album who instigated the Ridbaz's ouster.

HTC has a rather unpleasant but perhaps well
deservered reputation of kicking out such g'dolim as
R' Chaim Zimmerman. 

The fact that HTC has had a major turn around in the
last few years is due  to an entirely changed board of
directors (who are frum and would not have kicked  R.
Aaron out although not necessarily siding with him
then) There are many other factors which altered HTC's
course  but that would take another very long post to
relate.  Suffice it to say that the Yeshiva was on a
downward spiral for many years and almost went into
oblivion after the debacle with R. Aaron's ouster. 

I am happy to report that as David Nadoff indicated,
that HTC is enjoying someof the best years of it's
existence and is continually striving to ratchet
itself up.

HM

=====

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--- "Daniel B. Schwartz"
<SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> wrote:

>  Whether
> Mizrachi should have been willing to fight that
> battle is beyond my
> expertise.


This is exactly the point.  You must fight the fight
no matter how slim the chance. R. Aaron likely new the
odds. But, when someone of his sture says you should
try and void the sale, that's what you do.

HM

hm 

=====

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=====

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> I'm not sure I agree with his forecast, but if competition does lead 
> to quality improvement I would think that would be commendable and
> beneficial.  You don't have to accept the theory of biological 
> evolution to recognize the benefits of Social Darwinism.
	And you need not call it Social Darwinism when kin'as sofrim will do.

Gershon

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer writes: 
    "I am not sure why, then, not just encourage the women, by popular 
education,  to go to the rebbetzins of the MO community to transmit the 
she'eilos to their  husbands. If, indeed, that is all the yo'atzot do - 
convey questions to poskim -    why, then, the extensive and official 
training and certification? There are far more -    it would seem - quicker 
and more effective routes to go?"

Perhaps it is because not everything is a shei'la and perhaps because we are 
not supposed to run to the gadol ha-dor everytime we are ignorant of a 
halacha that is a d'var mishnah or a decided shikkul ha-daas.  And perhaps 
because not all rebbetzins are interested, capable of fulfilling this role.  
And what is their qualifications besides whom they married.  He has semicha, 
not she.  And if a woman who is exceptionally qualified because of learning, 
interpersonal skills and desire to serve klal Yisrael in this way-- a way in 
which you acknowledge a rebbetzin can function-- so much the better for the 
community.

Levi Reisman writes: "This having been said, I think we can be skeptical of 
the     learning accomplishments of the women involved until they can be 
verified
    independently.  This is not to say that they are not the talmidot 
chachamot
    their partisans claim they are, but they are not so just because of what
    their partisans say.  All too often, inflated claims are made for others'
    learning (and this is a universal fault).  Let's reserve judgment.  In the
    meantime, opposed as I may be to Mrs. Henkin, I would advise treating her
    with some respect, because she has earned it.  Do not dismiss her out of
    hand."

and Shlomo Godick writes: 
    Most of the halachos of "maros", for example, cannot be learned 
textually, but  must be taught visually and verbally, with lots and lots of 
real-life examples.
    Considering the fact that the notion of "poseket" is, bil'shon hamaata,
    controversial among the recognized poskim of our generation, with
    whom will the putative poseket do shimush?    How will she acquire the
    practical skills, no matter how text-learned she is?  
    On the other hand, training women to maintain a first-level
    help-desk and provide an approachable, non-threatening atmosphere
    for women with "shailos" is a good idea.   My impression is that
    often the rebbetzen of the posek performs this function quite well.

I find the condescending attitude of some of the posts, regarding the 
learning, yiras shamayim and intentions of those involved in this to be 
personally insulting and beside the point.  Rabbanit Henkin has bent over 
backwards to cross every "t" and dot every "i" to make sure that the ad 
hominem attacks would have no merit.  These students have had months of 
shimmush with poskim, months of medical training (besides Dr. Zimmerman's MD) 
and, knowing one of them personally (for what that is worth), know that she 
comes to this with real yiras ha-din and, like any responsble individual, 
will consult when she knows she is out of her league.  

The truth is, I do not hear the same critique of young rabbis who are given 
klafs and become the mara d'asra of their communities.  In truth, some don't 
make a move without the daas Torah of their rebbes.  Many are  responsible 
and know when they can pasken and when they need to consult.  In addition, 
most "p'sak" today is merely application aof "d'var mishnah" and already 
established "shikkul ha-daas".  For that, if you know the halacha, you don't 
need to ask a she'ailah.  

And what of the Chida, Birkei Yosef, Choshen mishpat 7:12, cited in Pischei 
Teshuvah, Choshen Mishpat 7:5: Af d'ishah pesulah la-dun, mikol makom isha 
chachamah yecholah le-horos ho-ra'ah... (He cites Tosfos, Sefer haChinuch 83 
and 152)?

In my view, this is a major tikkun to deal with the facts on the ground and 
to improve shemiras ha-mitzvos and kavod ha-Torah.

Mark Dratch

Perhaps they have. Someone should let us know.

I still fail to see, if they are simply conveying she'eilos, why the
intensive halachic training. If anything, interpersonal counseling skills
would be better and more necessary.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: objections to women yoatzot


> Perhaps they have been explored?  Additionally,  what of the issue that
many
> women would rather deal with another woman on these issues?  The chareidim
> downplay this issue, but it is extremely important
>

From: <MSDratch@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 4:24 PM
Subject: Women Yoatzot


>
> Perhaps it is because not everything is a shei'la and perhaps because we
are
> not supposed to run to the gadol ha-dor everytime we are ignorant of a
> halacha that is a d'var mishnah or a decided shikkul ha-daas.  And perhaps

I am sorry - did someone imply that one need run to the Gadol HaDor with
every she'eila?

If anything, in fact, one of the long cherished ideas of MO, the authority
of the *local* rabbi, will be most undermined by this development. The
"yo'atzot" (I would really like to call a spad a spade and not a hoeing
implement and call them poskot, but will abide by the pleasant fiction that
we are all engaing in here) will certainly consider themselves on a par with
the local rabbi, and only refer on she'eilos that require a gadol ha'dor -
most of whom, for now, are RW.

> because not all rebbetzins are interested, capable of fulfilling this
role.

I think most are. Otherwise they would not have married rabbis. Any polls?

> And what is their qualifications besides whom they married.  He has
semicha,
> not she.  And if a woman who is exceptionally qualified because of
learning,
> interpersonal skills and desire to serve klal Yisrael in this way-- a way
in
> which you acknowledge a rebbetzin can function-- so much the better for
the
> community.
>

True, and they should be trained en masse to do so - with the type of
scholarship that women need to teach and the interpersonal skills they need
to do it. Not this.

> I find the condescending attitude of some of the posts, regarding the
> learning, yiras shamayim and intentions of those involved in this to be
> personally insulting and beside the point.  Rabbanit Henkin has bent over
> backwards to cross every "t" and dot every "i" to make sure that the ad
> hominem attacks would have no merit.  These students have had months of
> shimmush with poskim, months of medical training (besides Dr. Zimmerman's
MD)
> and, knowing one of them personally (for what that is worth), know that
she
> comes to this with real yiras ha-din and, like any responsble individual,
> will consult when she knows she is out of her league.
>

I know you are not referring to me in this paragraph, as I did not manifest
such an attitude, but you make it eminently clear in the last paragraph what
these women will really do.

Which leads to very straightforward questions, for example:

How will they "advise" on:

1. What is onah beinonis?
2. When and which contraceptives may be used?

And such like?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

In a message dated 10/12/99 6:30:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

> 1. What is onah beinonis?
>  2. When and which contraceptives may be used?
>  
I fail to understand why such questions would justify the need of women 
Poskos, why would one need a women Poseket to answer this, why can't her 
husband ask the Rav.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:25:10 -0500
>From: david.nadoff@bfkpn.com
>Subject: The Story of Mizrachi-Chicago
>
>Hershel Ginsberg's calumny of Rav Aharon Soloveichik in V4#33 is not worthy of
>response. His pseudo-halachik assertion of g'zayro she'ayn rov hatzibur yochol
>la'amod bo
>concerning a community that has lived and thrived without an eiruv
>literally for
>generations,
>until very recent years, also falls of its own weight.

<snip snip snip>

I don't have the time, energy or desire to reply to your diatribe.  However
I don't want to give the impression of Shtikah K'hoda'ah dami.  Just a few
points:

a)  I suspect that you had no involvement in the conception, planning, or
execution of the Chicago eiruv.  Therefore, how would you know who
spearheaded what and what were the motivations to put up the Eiruv?

b)  The rabbi perhaps most responsible for putting up the Eiruv is Rabbi
Zev Cohen who is a "respected Talmid Chacham in his own right", whether or
not you agree with him on any given issue.

c)  One of the individuals (quietly) involved in the putting up the Eiruv
is a Brisker, a talmid of Rab Aharon, who on the one hand did not plan to
use it because he considers himself a Brisker, but on the other hand
recognized the overall community need for the eiruv.

d)  Chicago may have thrived for years without an eiruv, I suspect because
a signifcant number of people within the community may not have been as
careful on Shabbat many years ago about carrying keys handkercheifs etc. in
their pockets or in pushing baby buggies, and other seemingly "not really
carrying" activities.  I know this was the case when I was growing up in
Brooklyn.  The near explosive growth in community / urban Eiruvs in the US
appears to corrolate very well with the general increase in observance /
swing to the right, and hence greater diyuk in Shabbat observance, that
American Jewry experianced since the early 1970's.

e)  Even assuming you are correct that "virtually every Chicago rov that is
ra'uy l'hora'a opposed the eiruv" (an assertion which I don't think is
correct), as of when I left Chicago about 4+ years ago, the Eiruv appeare
to have gained wide acceptance, even by many with in the "Yeshivish"
community (non-Brisk) as demonstrated by its use, including by many within
the non-Brisk Yeshivish community.

f)  If you ask in many communities within the US what or who started the
"eiruv project", you'll find out that very often, some lay leaders or
parents of very young kids or people confined to wheel chairs, approached
their Rav and asked about putting up an eiruv.  Any responsible Rav will
then assess the needs of his kehilla and start exploring the issue,
recruiting capable individuals within the community to assist with the
myriad of details that need to be dealt with.  Given the very large number
of community / urban eiruvin in the US, are you insinuating that all of
those rabbanim were afraid to offend their lay leaders / caved into the
pressure / in effect sold their souls to the devil?

hg


.............................................................................
                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
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.............................................................................

>>>b'zeas  apecha tochal lechem is an onesh and not a mitzva. <<<

However, 'gadol hane'heneh m'yegiyas kapav yoiser min hayarei shamayim'.  The 
ideal is gan eden, but most of us ain't living there.  

>>>I still fail to see why yo'atzot, if they are not paskening,
just conveying, are necessary.<<<

If that's all they are doing, too bad.  

-Chaim 

Hershel Ginsburg wrote:

>
> a)  I suspect that you had no involvement in the conception, planning, or
> execution of the Chicago eiruv.  Therefore, how would you know who
> spearheaded what and what were the motivations to put up the Eiruv?
>

You did not have to be in the in-group to know who was who. Even unimportant people
knew.

>
> b)  The rabbi perhaps most responsible for putting up the Eiruv is Rabbi
> Zev Cohen who is a "respected Talmid Chacham in his own right", whether or
> not you agree with him on any given issue.
>

And what other Rabbi was involved?

>
> c)  One of the individuals (quietly) involved in the putting up the Eiruv
> is a Brisker, a talmid of Rab Aharon, who on the one hand did not plan to
> use it because he considers himself a Brisker, but on the other hand
> recognized the overall community need for the eiruv.
>

A Brisker? or a shul Rabbi who felt he had to cater to his BT membership?

>
> d)  Chicago may have thrived for years without an eiruv, I suspect because
> a signifcant number of people within the community may not have been as
> careful on Shabbat many years ago about carrying keys handkercheifs etc. in
> their pockets or in pushing baby buggies, and other seemingly "not really
> carrying" activities.  I know this was the case when I was growing up in
> Brooklyn.  The near explosive growth in community / urban Eiruvs in the US
> appears to corrolate very well with the general increase in observance /
> swing to the right, and hence greater diyuk in Shabbat observance, that
> American Jewry experianced since the early 1970's.
>

Many of the same who were not carful without an eruv are not carful with an eruv
unless some other changes have taken place.

>
> e)  Even assuming you are correct that "virtually every Chicago rov that is
> ra'uy l'hora'a opposed the eiruv" (an assertion which I don't think is
> correct), as of when I left Chicago about 4+ years ago, the Eiruv appeare
> to have gained wide acceptance, even by many with in the "Yeshivish"
> community (non-Brisk) as demonstrated by its use, including by many within
> the non-Brisk Yeshivish community.
>

Do the people from Telsh or from the Community Kollel use the eruv?

>
> f)  If you ask in many communities within the US what or who started the
> "eiruv project", you'll find out that very often, some lay leaders or
> parents of very young kids or people confined to wheel chairs, approached
> their Rav and asked about putting up an eiruv.  Any responsible Rav will
> then assess the needs of his kehilla and start exploring the issue,
> recruiting capable individuals within the community to assist with the
> myriad of details that need to be dealt with.  Given the very large number
> of community / urban eiruvin in the US, are you insinuating that all of
> those rabbanim were afraid to offend their lay leaders / caved into the
> pressure / in effect sold their souls to the devil?
>
> hg

You fail to address the issue of a Godol HaDor residing and teaching in that town
who is opposed. May we ignore him? Several Poskim who were asked to come and
establish an eruv refused. One Rav made the eruv in an abutting suburb but would
not do so in Chicago.

sk

harry maryles wrote:

> I am happy to report that as David Nadoff indicated,
> that HTC is enjoying someof the best years of it's
> existence and is continually striving to ratchet
> itself up.
>
> HM

Hate to tell you this. A growing High School does not make a great
Yeshiva.

But more important the yeshiva still does not know how to treat it
brightest and best talmidey chachamim. They are still getting away
and/or relegated to out of the way jobs.

Raboshai...why are we so philosohpical. Why not simply quote well
known halachas. Like...


--Love thy neighbor
--Dont stand on your neighbors blood
--Returning lost articles

All the above are bonifide mitzvoth and would be fulfilled (Kiyum, not
Chova)
by one woman helping another woman in Taharat Mishpacha (In case someone
wants to know what lost articles is doing on the list...there are
rishonim who
paskin that it is fulfilled by non monetary returns (like ones soul)).

The above halachic analysis also answers Rabbi Bs "political
concerns"---quite
simply saving a marriage (vs ruining one) is a serious matter. Thus
although
I would be sympathetic to political concerns otherwise when it comes to
helping
marriages I would not let politics intefer. Note that this is a LEGAL
STATEMENT:
---THE HELPING OF MARRIAGES TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER HALACHIC
CONCERNS EVEN IF OTHER AVENUES EXIST.

Finally I would like to echo what other posters are hinting at (let me
say it more
explicitly): Not all Orthodox women are Baki in taharat mishpacha. I
therefore can't
see ANYTHING preventing us from improving women's knowledge of it.

FInally...if people like Rabbi B are THAT concerned about what will
'happen to
Judaism' then I suggest giving these women CERTIFICATES lisencing them
to ADVISE but not to PASKEN. This is also the spirit of Rabbanit Henkin's
lectures
on the subject.

I again emphasize that I regard this posting as Halachic/legal. The soul
issue
to me is whether a woman who wants to save her friends' marriage has the
right
to do so by becoming learned in Taharat Mishpacah. 

I close with the chilling story of Eli and his sons----for a God that is
known for mercy
and Justice it is shocking to find God issuing a 'punishment based on
birth vs merit'--
namely that all descendants of Eli were cursed. Such a horror must strike
us...it must
strike us more that such a horrible punishment occurs only because of how
the sons
of Eli broke up People's marriages. I could go on but let me close with
this chilling note

Russell Hendel; Phd ASA; Moderator Rashi is
Simple;http://www.shamash.org/rashi
___________________________________________________________________
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RRJH seems to believe I disagree with him. Quite the opposite.

For years and years, doubtless since time immemorial, women have been
teaching kallah classes and giving advice to other women about taharas
ha'mishpocho. There are several such nashim melumodos here in Chicago and
doubtless in every frum community across the world. This is aside from the
mikveh ladies who are generally knowledgable in halachos pertaining to
chafifa and chatzitza. These women - unsung heroes, perhaps - deserve credit
beyond any of our capacity for promoting and enhancing taharas
ha'mishpocho - and, serving when necessary as go-betweens for embarassed or
shy sho'alos - without the official courses or teu'dot.

This is what Russell wants - I am sure - to see enhanced. So do I.

Obviously, for some quarters this was not enough. It would not be enough to
recruit more women for organizations like "Daughters of Israel" hee in
Chicago or "Women's Orthodox League" in Detroit etc. Nor to increase their
funding and push membership therein.

Why not?

I believe I understand very well why not.

But, to say so seems to be the equivalent, of "hakol yod'im lamam kalla
nichneses l'chuppa ela kol ha'menabel es piv" etc.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message -----
From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 9:55 PM
Subject: Women Yoatzot: Why not quote simple halachas


> Raboshai...why are we so philosohpical. Why not simply quote well
> known halachas. Like...
>
>
> --Love thy neighbor
> --Dont stand on your neighbors blood
> --Returning lost articles
>
> All the above are bonifide mitzvoth and would be fulfilled (Kiyum, not
> Chova)
> by one woman helping another woman in Taharat Mishpacha (In case someone
> wants to know what lost articles is doing on the list...there are
> rishonim who
> paskin that it is fulfilled by non monetary returns (like ones soul)).
>
> The above halachic analysis also answers Rabbi Bs "political
> concerns"---quite
> simply saving a marriage (vs ruining one) is a serious matter. Thus
> although
> I would be sympathetic to political concerns otherwise when it comes to
> helping
> marriages I would not let politics intefer. Note that this is a LEGAL
> STATEMENT:
> ---THE HELPING OF MARRIAGES TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER HALACHIC
> CONCERNS EVEN IF OTHER AVENUES EXIST.
>
> Finally I would like to echo what other posters are hinting at (let me
> say it more
> explicitly): Not all Orthodox women are Baki in taharat mishpacha. I
> therefore can't
> see ANYTHING preventing us from improving women's knowledge of it.
>
> FInally...if people like Rabbi B are THAT concerned about what will
> 'happen to
> Judaism' then I suggest giving these women CERTIFICATES lisencing them
> to ADVISE but not to PASKEN. This is also the spirit of Rabbanit Henkin's
> lectures
> on the subject.
>
> I again emphasize that I regard this posting as Halachic/legal. The soul
> issue
> to me is whether a woman who wants to save her friends' marriage has the
> right
> to do so by becoming learned in Taharat Mishpacah.
>
> I close with the chilling story of Eli and his sons----for a God that is
> known for mercy
> and Justice it is shocking to find God issuing a 'punishment based on
> birth vs merit'--
> namely that all descendants of Eli were cursed. Such a horror must strike
> us...it must
> strike us more that such a horrible punishment occurs only because of how
> the sons
> of Eli broke up People's marriages. I could go on but let me close with
> this chilling note
>
> Russell Hendel; Phd ASA; Moderator Rashi is
> Simple;http://www.shamash.org/rashi
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