Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 039

Thursday, October 14 1999

• Re: Yoatzot (Fw: Avodah V4 #37)
• Re: the women clergy issue
• Unsolicited pesak (was The Story of Mizrachi-Chicago)
• cryptic objections to yoatzot
• Re: Yoatzot (Fw: Avodah V4 #37)--correction
• The destruction of Hungarian Jewry
• Re: Yoatzot (Fw: Avodah V4 #37)
• Re: cryptic objections to yoatzot
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• Re: Yoatzot (Fw: Avodah V4 #37)
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• Beit Midrash L'Rabbonim.
• "Roiv Noshim Ein Lohem Veset Kovua"
• Objections to Women Yo'atzot
• Re: Veses Kovua

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> > Let us examine this one example. The only reason these women will
> pasken
> > better than their male counterparts is because, due to the
> Orthodox
> Feminist
> > agenda, money is being thrown at them, special training provided
> for them,
> > and positions (for influence) provided for them. It is a turf war
> - but in
> > the opposite direction than the one you describe - by Orthodox
> Feminists
> > (OF's) and their supporters determined to stake their claim to as
> much
> > Halachic turf as possible. I do not believe the motivation of the
> OF's is
> > pure unadulterated ratzon Hashem. Far more ratzon Hashem would be
> > accomplished by providing the same money, training and positions
> as
> > incentives to the best and brightest MO men - who, as I really
> believe,
> > would do far better than the women! But, re'eh zeh peleh - the
> best and
> the
> > brightest MO minds are not today in the rabbinate - look at the
> list of
> contributors
> > to the current, and all issues of the MO journal "Tradition".

1.  I question how much money & training is being provided to Yoatzot
at Nishmat in comparison to those who study for the rabbinate at
Yeshivot Hesder.  Do you really think that the reason these yoatzot
were successful in their studies is that money was thrown at them? 
It is my impression, rather, that these were a self-selecting group
of highly dedicated, idealistic and intelligent women.  An
equivalent--if not larger--group exists among hesdernikim.  However,
unlike the learned hesdernikim who have many options through which to
exercise their talents, a talmidah chachama has very few.  It is very
disheartening to learn so much yet be unable to share one's learning
with others.  The option of becoming Yoatzot is a welcome opportunity
for these women.  The best & brightest will give it their all in this
narrow area, unlike men who have many alternatives at their disposal
(Niddah isn't the most exciting subject for many men in comparison to
Hilchot Shabbat); this, rather than the money and training, accounts
for the likely success they will enjoy as Yoatzot.

2.  Once it was the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  Today the
canard is "Orthodox Feminists."  Sure, the OFs are happy with the
development of Yoatzot.  But are they the ones spearheading the
Yoatzot program?  

Out of curiosity, I attended the last conference of Feminism &
Orthodoxy.  It was very clear that there were (at least) two
identifiable groups there: (1) the old-line (generally older)
feminists (Blu Greenberg is representative of these) and (2) women
(generally younger) who are dedicated to learning and kiyum hamitzvot
and wish to expand their opportunies in these areas.  IMHO the second
group was the more dynamic; Rebbetzin Henkin's session was standing
room only while a different session by Dr. Norma Joseph Baumel (?)
dealing with Rav Moshe Feinstein's supposedly anti-female stance
(very unconvincing, I must say) had a larger room but just a
sprinkling of people.

It is very clear to me that the second group (call them FFs--Female
Frummies) is the mainstay of the Yoatzot program.  Sure the OFs are
cheering on the sidelines and perhaps donating some money, but this
is a FF accomplishment.  Compare to the fact that many of the donors
to YU, Lubavitch and Aish HaTorah are not frum and may donate for
less than frum reasons; as long as the donors do not tie the hands of
the donees, the donees should not be viewed as mere puppets of the
donors (though I agree that it is better to do without such money, as
the donors often have some direct or indirect influence).

3.  Regarding MO learning: I agree with your assessment with regard
to America.  However, in Israel a higher percentage of talented
hesdernikim go into chinuch/rabbanut.  It used to be that many of the
teachers at MO schools in Israel were RW, but that is no more.  In
fact, I know of an American-Israeli chaver who desperately would love
to teach at a high level but is unable to do so because of the
competition.

In any case, taking the money allocated to Nishmat and sending it to
the Yeshivot Hesder will not change much.  Aside from the fact that
the money is just a drop in the bucket, the reason that some of the
most talented bochrim are choosing a profession over chinuch has
little to do with the amount of training provided to them in the area
of chinuch.  It has more to do with the ebbing of idealism in Israeli
society and the greater emphasis on materialism in the culture
(perhaps associated with the impressive accomplishments of the
Israeli economy during the past decade, BTAT).

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@netvision.net.il> writes:
: I hope the men on this list will forgive me, but Judaism has always been
: "women-dominated" <g>.  It is not the shul which is the center of jewish
: life -- it is the home, and as we say in hebrew the woman is "akeret
: Habayit" the mainstay of the home.

To quote myself from v2n37, when we discussed Women's Tefillah Groups:
}         it would be validating the non-O belief that Judaism revolves around
} the synagogue. Jon Baker (or was it his wife?) once pointed out to me that the
} three mitzvos that sociologically define Orthodoxy, Shabbos, kashrus, and
} taharas hamishpachah are all "women's mitzvos". So of course, non-Orthodox
} "Judaisms" can't provide sufficient spiritual context for women.

: In Israel the shul does not have the same social role that it has in the
: states.  So this whole discussion on "women dominance" is irrelevant (and a
: bit funny, I must say).

Perhaps because Israel doesn't have non-O "Judaisms". Therefore you didn't
assimilate this particularly Christian separation between the house of worship
and the rest of the world.

Back to the same post:
} As R' YB Soloveitchik writes in one of the earlier footnotes to Ish HaHalachah
} ( ... [footnote 5]), it is the nature of modern religion to define itself
} as a respite from reality. So, churches are built with an otherworldliness, to
} provide a spiritual retreat. This is the path Conservative and Reform are
} following (in practice, if not in their position papers).

There is a parallel between wanting a greater role in shul and wanting a
role in the Rabbinate. However, it has yet to be shown that this has anything
to do with the program in question.

Also, why are these women any different than the assistant at Lincoln
Square who would also help with issues (including teaching those issues)
that women would feel uncomfortable discussing with a Rabbi? Why did that
situation generate such a different response in the media than this is?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 14-Oct-99: Chamishi, Noach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 53a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

R. Mechy Frankel writes:

> the generic issue is the
>appropriateness of offering unasked for opinions, compounded if another's
>opinion has already been rendered - is this now considered a matter of
>course "right" by some/all? rabbinic authorities and what do others think of
>it?

Strictly speaking, Halakhah addresses this topic.  The decisions of
benei ha-ir require the ratification of an adam gadol, if the adam gadol
inhabits the particular ir.  Sources upon request.

Whether and how this principle applies to the contemporary Chicago
Orthodox community is more difficult; most Jewish communities in the
Middle Ages were small and had, at most a single rav; except in
exceptional circumstances, one did not find a number of autonomus groups
sharing a single geographical area.

>I recall the assertion as well that
>R. Kook withdrew his negative pisaq about the right of woman to vote (in
>jewish agency elections during the mandate) following protests by R. yehudah
>L maimon that nobody had asked him, which logic R. kook, upon reflection,
>agreed with.

I don't recall this.  R. Maimon (ne Fishman) and other Mizrachi leaders
were certainly chagrined when the rav for whom they created the office
of chief rabbi took a militant position against women voting, which they
supported.  But I do not remember R. Kook backing down.  My primary
source on this controversy is Menahem Friedman's Dat u-Medinah, but i do
not remember him writing that R. Kook conceded the issue.   Is Friedman
your source?

> then there were the manifold public positions promulgated by
>such as R. Chaim ozer as part of his agudaist role in the inter-war years
>where he viewed his responsibilities as extending far beyond his local vilna
>purview.

I think the more expansive role was directly related to the goals of
Agudah itself.  And, mutatis mutandis, remains so today.

> this assumption of a much broader communal "right" to issue
>halachic declarations on issues related to public policy, when that public
>had not solicited such guidance, was of course the heart of Larry Kaplan's
>famous (or -charedi - infamous) article on daas torah.

Funny, I thought the heart of the article was that da'as Torah
promouncements were different from pesak because they did not involve
halakhic reasoning or cite halakhic sources.

>Do people on this
>list think it obligatory for a tzibbur to follow such unsolicited
>delarations from authoritative rabbinic authorities, at all?,  if they have
>a contradictory opinion from a competent rabbinic authority whose guidance
>they did seek?  i don't for a second suggest that any poseiq does not have
>the 'right" to rule abut anything he wishes - its a free country - but
>rather the focus is on the tzibbur's obligation to submit.

I think the answer will depend on many factors, including the tzibbur's
relationship with the posek in question, the stature of the posek within
the tzibbur, the degree to which the question relates to general policy
or a specific, real-world question (e.g. sale of a building).


>  Do people on
>this list actually think that a local rav - who was described as 'a talmid
>chochom in his own right" - actually need mivateil his personal halachic
>opinion on a matter which directly affects his own community because others
> - - to include those  others would describe as 'greater' - hold a
>contradictory opinion? and would it make a difference if a 'few" local
>rabbis agreed with him?

Interestingly, in the brouhaha over women's prayer groups in Queens two
years ago, this issue was raised in defense of the shul rav who
permitted it in someone's house.  In other words, whatever the members
of the Queens Va'ad may think, the shul rav has a right, as mara
de-atra, to make the final decisions on issues relating to his kehillah.
 This is related to the issue raised above: Does Halakhah treat as
independent the different shuls that occupt a single neighborhood?  I
think the answer is generally yes.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

RYGB said:

> I have been asked offline by two people to explain a post I sent in
> yesterday, so, I will do so publicly as well.
> 
> Someone asked me if I am wrting in this enigmatic style because I
> believe that "ha'mevinim mevinim", and I confrim that this is the
> case. I may have been wrong in that belief.
>
> Quote from me:
> 
> <<< It is very likely that these women will issue far more correct and
> accurate psakim than their male MO counterparts. They probably will.
> That is not an objection - how could it be? But it is precisely the
> problem.
> V'dok! >>>

I had been keeping my curiosity to myself, hoping further light would be
shed.  Now, RYGB is asked:

> Getting back to the first paragraph here, you feel that it is likely
> that these women will pasken better than their male MO counterparts,
> and that that is the *problem*. I am mystified. Is this some sort of
> turf war, where you are fighting for the men to be able to hold their
> territory? I thought the goal was to do the ratzon HaShem, and if a
> woman can teach me that better than a man, what is the problem?

To which he replies:

> My response:
> 
> Let us examine this one example. The only reason these women will
> pasken better than their male counterparts is because, due to the
> Orthodox Feminist agenda, money is being thrown at them, special
> training provided for them, and positions (for influence) provided for
> them. It is a turf war - but in the opposite direction than the one
> you describe - by Orthodox Feminists (OF's) and their supporters
> determined to stake their claim to as much Halachic turf as possible.
> I do not believe the motivation of the OF's is pure unadulterated
> ratzon Hashem.

Isn't that a rather presumptuous claim to understand their motivations?

> Far more ratzon Hashem would be accomplished by providing the same
> money, training and positions as incentives to the best and brightest
> MO men - who, as I really believe, would do far better than the women!
> But, re'eh zeh peleh - the best and the brightest MO minds are not
> today in the rabbinate - look at the list of contributors to the
> current, and all issues of the MO journal "Tradition". V'im ba'arazim
> nafla shalhevers, ma ya'anu azuvei kir?
> 
> So, I hope what I said is clear:
> These women will pasken better because the resources etc. that should have
> gone into making emes'er morei horo'o and gedolei torah is being deprived
> the boys and being given the girls. This is, in my opinion, bad.

I really am almost speechless, for once.  Does this remind anyone else of
Nathan the prophet's story to King David about the guy who had many sheep
but insisted on taking the poor guy's one sheep?

(I'm reading in digest mode so I may have missed something...)

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

I wrote:
> 2.  Once it was the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  Today the
> canard is "Orthodox Feminists."  Sure, the OFs are happy with the
> development of Yoatzot.  But are they the ones spearheading the
> Yoatzot program?  
> 

I was overzealous in making a reference to Protocols of the Elders of
Zion.  I certainly do not wish anyone to think that there is a full
comparison to made here, or that anyone is being accused of being
similar to an antisemite.  The point is merely that people are
accusing a shadowy group of orchestrating events and having far more
influence than they actually have.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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S B Abeles writes:

>The following article appears in this weeks Yated Ne'eman (US edition)
>and may in some way be related to the earlier discussion of Rabbi
>Teichtal and his
>views. Whilst many have heard of this sad chapter in our history - it
>may however
>remind those who continue to blame the Gedolim for the decimation of
>European Jewry
> - - to have another think.

Thanks for bringing to the list's attention Yated's characteristically
thoughtful and objective account of what is certainly a tragic chapter
in our history.

It did make me think a little: I thought that, had the leadership of
Hungarian Jewry encouraged their communities to leave Hungary, they
would not have still been there in spring of 1944 when R. Weissmandl was
trying to secure their escape.  But surely no one is looking to blame
the slaughter of our brothers on fellow Jews; they were murdered by a
modern-day Amalek, not by Zionist functionaries or leaders who did not
know the future.  I feel certain we can all agree on that.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

----- Original Message -----
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>


> 1.  I question how much money & training is being provided to Yoatzot
> at Nishmat in comparison to those who study for the rabbinate at
> Yeshivot Hesder.  Do you really think that the reason these yoatzot
> were successful in their studies is that money was thrown at them?

No money is spent on Hesder Semicha programs. I do not even know of any
formal training programs.

The creation and running of the program involved expenditures, no?

> 2.  Once it was the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  Today the
> canard is "Orthodox Feminists."  Sure, the OFs are happy with the
> development of Yoatzot.  But are they the ones spearheading the
> Yoatzot program?
>

Interesting comparison.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message -----
From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu>

> > Let us examine this one example. The only reason these women will
> > pasken better than their male counterparts is because, due to the
> > Orthodox Feminist agenda, money is being thrown at them, special
> > training provided for them, and positions (for influence) provided for
> > them. It is a turf war - but in the opposite direction than the one
> > you describe - by Orthodox Feminists (OF's) and their supporters
> > determined to stake their claim to as much Halachic turf as possible.
> > I do not believe the motivation of the OF's is pure unadulterated
> > ratzon Hashem.
>
> Isn't that a rather presumptuous claim to understand their motivations?
>

I do not claim to understand their motivations. As I mentioned earlier in
different terms, I may be entirely or partially wrong. I am only asking
others to have the humility to realize they may be entirely or partially
wrong as well. Which is why this development cannot be regarded as
unquestionably positive.

I have not seen such humility manifest to date.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> So, if we can solve the problem with much less investment, why the
> intensive
> program, full degree and title?
> 
> The only additional benefit to the program under discussion that I
> see is
> reducing the Rabbinic workload.
> 
> However, I don't hear complaints that the total load borne by local
> poskim
> is overwhelming their numbers.
> 

The primary goal here is finding an outlet for talmidot chachamot to
apply their learning.  There are material benefits to the Jewish
community in terms of increasing taharat hamishpacha observance, but
this is a benefit, not a goal.

Compare to many who go into chinuch: Sure, they consider the plight
of klal yisrael (not enough good mechanchim) to be important, but
primarily they are doing this as an expression of their own
spirituality.  Proof: the number of bochrim who compete for the top
positions in yeshivot gevohot, because there they feel most
fulfilled, even though the need is really at the high school level.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> > 1.  I question how much money & training is being provided to
> Yoatzot
> > at Nishmat in comparison to those who study for the rabbinate at
> > Yeshivot Hesder.  Do you really think that the reason these
> yoatzot
> > were successful in their studies is that money was thrown at
> them?
> 
> No money is spent on Hesder Semicha programs. I do not even know of
> any
> formal training programs.

Many of these yeshivot  (e.g. Shaalvim, Gush) raise quite a lot of
money in the US (much more than Nishmat or other women's programs). 
Ultimately, it is the yeshiva's decision as to how to allocate the
monies.  They do not choose to allocate to formal training programs
in this area (though they have made quite an investment in teacher
training programs; presumably, they believe that there's more of a
need there), though (I presume) they do choose to give larger
stipends to kollelniks than what is given those studying to become
toanot.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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----- Original Message -----
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>

> The primary goal here is finding an outlet for talmidot chachamot to
> apply their learning.  There are material benefits to the Jewish
> community in terms of increasing taharat hamishpacha observance, but
> this is a benefit, not a goal.
>

I find this curious, to say the least. Did Dr. Nechama Leibovitz not have a
proper outlet? Is there not much work to be done in Tanach? If that is not
an outlet enough, then Taharas ha'Mishpocho will be *the* outlet?

In any event, if, indeed thay need an *outlet* for their learning, then let
them learn, like most of us do, Torah Lishma - without programs and
certificates and publicity.

Whatever arguments may be mustered to defend this step, this is not one that
I can accept nor even understand.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

R. Bechhofer used the term "Beit Midrash L'Rabbonim".  Does this refer
to a specific (historical) institution?  To an idea?  Please explain the
reference.  I can translate the words, but more seems to be implied.

Can you provide an exact citation?  Not doubting you.  I just want to
see it inside.

RYGB writes:

>As someone pointed out, I forget whom, maybe  RET, this specific
>manifestation of the problematic phenomenon is taking place in EY for a
>reason. There is, in EY, very little of the communal rabbinic model we have
>here. There are very few RZ types in such positions, when they exist, to
>boot. This manifestation will exacerbate the problem.

In Eretz Yisrael (and I welcome anyone ba-shetah to correct me), the
situation varies.  In larger Israeli cities, there is no analogue to the
communal rav.  But in smaller towns, yishuvim, moshavim and kibbutzim,
there is often a rav, and increasingly these rabbanim are religious
Zionists.

> Inexplicably, the MO leadership that backed
>this development did not consult me before going ahead with it :-).

Really?  They forgot to consult me too!  But I may have been out when
they called . . .  .

>Real dialogue is a thing of the past, likely never to be seen
>again ad bi'as Go'el Tzedek (b'meheira b'yomeinu!).

To be honest, I don't think there was much real dialogue in the past
either.

> Far more ratzon Hashem would be
> accomplished by providing the same money, training and positions as
> incentives to the best and brightest MO men - who, as I really believe,
> would do far better than the women! But, re'eh zeh peleh - the best and
the
> brightest MO minds are not today in the rabbinate - look at the list of
contributors
> to the current, and all issues of the MO journal "Tradition".

I agree that the community would benefit if more resources were devoted
to attracting the best and brightest men to serving as kelei kodesh.

I also agree that various women's learning institutions are phenomenally
well-endowed.  A friend whose wife was learning at Drisha in NY
cheerfully told me that he was a "kollel husband" and admitted that he
would be in kollel too if he were offered a comparable stipend.  I have
also been told that Drisha can afford to pay teachers handsomely to
teach a class to 3 or 4 students.

However, I don't believe these women's institutions are actually
diverting resources away from programs for men; rather, in the absence
of women's programs, I think this money would simply not have been
contributed at all.  I think it is also true that the MO "brain drain"
described by RYGB has been going on for at least 25 years, i.e., many
years before these women's programs began, MO men were being drawn away
from a life of kelei kodesh into the professions and business.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

In message , Yzkd@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 10/13/99 2:29:46 PM EST, MPoppers@kayescholer.com writes:
>
>> Is it possible that today's generation of young women (never mind prior
>>  generations) are not being taught those sections of Halacha which relate to
>>  veses and, more to the point of this discussion, what constitutes VK?
>>  Based on personal experience, it would unfortunately seem that such is
>>  indeed a possibility, even after sessions with a madrichah.
>>  
> "Roiv Noshim Ein Lohem Veset Kovua" is brought in Poskim, I would doubt that 
>it was based on women not knowing how to calculate them (even the more 
>complicated and less frequent ones).  However AFAIK the men are tought alot 
>more WRT possible sequences, and are told that one should consult a Rov when 
>there is such possibility.
>

Sigh, I should have known.  According to my kalla teacher,  a veset
kavua occurs if either:

a) you always have a cycle the same number of days apart (as
demonstrated over the last three months, eg 30-30-30); or

b) your first day always falls on the same day of the Hebrew month (eg
the fifth of the month) as demonstrated over the last three months.

That's it.

Hargasha was mentioned as being something that we do not take into
account today, even if you feel you have such.

This was one of the reasons why knowing about the Nishmat programme andI
realising that the group must be nearly finished, I  wanted very much to
do my kala classes with one of the yoatzot. Because long experience of
women and learning means that I had (and have) zero confidence in what
is being taught in kalla classes.

Why?  I have had too much exposure to two things a) women being taught
dinnim (such as shabbas and kashrus), without the learning behind it and
b) some exposure to the real halacha.

Anybody who has both IMHO will come to a very simple conclusion.  Where
women have a solid practical education, from the home, in shabbas and
kashrus, dinnim doesn't do any harm, and may enhance.  Where they have
not, disaster.  I have seen this extensively in women who did not come
from frum homes - sometimes who learnt via their schools, and sometimes
afterwards.  Dinnim does not give these women the tools in which to
contexualise what they are learning, or understand the basic principles,
so that anything even slightly different from the particular din they
have been taught is not obvious.  But you cannot possibly ask questions
(and don't have the tools to ask questions) to cater for all the holes
in a complicated area like shabbas and kashrus.  So the women make their
own attempt to contexualise what they have learnt, and come up with
theories which sometimes are extremely logical, but bear absolutely no
relation to what the texts say.  And they don't know to ask about these,
as you don't ask about basic assumptions, especially when it is the
basic assumptions that tell you when to ask and when not to ask.

The problem with taharas hamishpacha is that nobody learns how to do it
from watching their mother - so if women do not learn it from serious
textual learning, they will not learn it properly at all (mikvah is
different.  A mikvah lady presumably learns from another mikvah lady,
and she can indeed watch until she feels comfortable she knows what she
is doing.  This is why I have far more confidence that my mikvah ladies
know what they are talking about in relation to tevilla).

Here we have just identified a classic example. When I first saw
Shoshana's post I thought she didn't know what she was talking about.
Because, as far as I was aware, you needed three months in succession to
be exactly the same, and what she described did not match that
description. But if Yitzchok Zirkind also knows of such, then I have to
conclude that I have just fallen over one of the hidden assumptions that
were transmitted to me with the dinnim.  Had I not been on a list like
this (hardly a common place to be for a woman), I would never have known
(and neither would my husband, it is all very well to say husbands know
to ask, but he doesn't keep the count, I do).

This one is probably relatively innocuous (although it still is in the
category of being machmir, as it means that, at least for some couples,
there may have been times when they were not together when they could
have been).  However I am sure there are other more serious ones of
which I am not aware.  One of which I became aware, involving issues of
dam besulin, I only became aware because I was panicked by what was
happening, it not matching my kalla teacher's description (but then, she
has only one real case study to go on, her own) and found an Aruch
HaShulchan that if anything seemed to say that I was more typical (but
with halachic consequences that I would certainly not have known to
fulfil, nor would I have thought to ask a Rav, you don't ask a Rav
whether you are "normal").  But most women are not out there hunting for
that Aruch HaShulchan and if their kalla teacher did not herself find or
need to find the Aruch HaShulchan, they will assume as I and my kalla
teacher assumed.

I dread to think how many others will turn up as I learn a bit more. And
yet I was very careful with my choice of kalla teacher for precisely
this reason, as it is clearly an area where superstition and chumras 
reign. I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end
except that, given the nature of the subject matter, I don't think they
are appropriate for this forum.

Regards

Chana


>Kol Tuv
>
>Yitzchok Zirkind
>

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

********************


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