Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 043

Saturday, October 16 1999

• Re: Veses Kovua
• Yoatzot
• Re: crisis? evidence?
• Avraham and Dor Hapalagah
• Re: Avodah V4 #40
• Women and Privacy Issues
• Eruv
• Re: Yoatzot
• Re: crisis? evidence?
• Hilchos Scanners
• Resources for learning
• Response to David Glasner (On who lived in Kayns city)
• Chafetz Chaiim on Joel Rich

In message , Yzkd@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 10/14/99 4:48:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk writes:
>
>> Sigh, I should have known.  According to my kalla teacher...
>>  
>Unfortunately there are times that faults can be found in some Kallah 
>classes, and even in refresher courses, this should always be brought to the 
>attention of the Mara D'asroh. 

Hold on though, this was not just some "stum" Kalla teacher.  Because I
was nervous about precisely this, and because unfortunately it was not
practical to do my kalla classes in Israel, as I only arrived there two
weeks before the wedding, I very carefully chose my Kalla teacher.  One
of the things I looked for was that she had been trained by programme of
the Chief Rabbinate, and she used their course materials (which turned
out to be photocopied English sheets which apparently they were planning
to publish in booklet form).  In addition, she had originally learnt to
teach kallas in Israel, where/when her husband had shimush in hilchos
nida, ie the Chief Rabbinate aspect was for her a review and upgrading
of what she has previously learnt, and she had taken other steps to
review. She is also extremely bright (masters in something like
maths/computer science - as well as the requisite 6 children). That is,
I made my best effort to search out the most knowledgeable woman in
London that I could fin.  If this sort of fault can be found in my kalla
classes, kama v'kama in your average one (I had many more contact hours
than I know many kallas have had).

I think that the difference here is not the kalla teacher, but rather
the student.  Most women are just not capable of, nor will they find
themself in a situation to question, a lot of what I have called the
hidden assumptions (nor will they even think to look for them).  So they
stay hidden.


> However this does not prove that a Kallah 
>class instructor needs to be a Baki in Hil. Niddah (of course every women is 
>obligated to learn all of the Torah that is Nogeia to her including Hil. 
>Niddah etc. (see S"O Horav Hil. Talmud Torah end of first chapter), my point 
>here is the Gemarah, Rashi, Tos., Rishonim, Tur, Sidrei Taharoh, etc.), she 
>must be tested by the Mara Dasroh to make sure that she knows for herself and 
>relates it properly.

But you can't.  That is my point.  It is not possible to really know for
yourself and relate properly without a lot of that background (unless
you know by watching and listening over the years, when you learn the
way a child learns to speak its mother tongue).  In fact I think the
teaching of languages is instructive.  There are two ways to learn
languages.  The best way is the way a child learns by watching and
listening and being corrected.  The second way is the way they teach in
school, where you learn all the underlying grammatical rules.  But the
second way is hard, and if you don't go far enough, you can't really
speak (truth, how many of you studied a language in school, and could
pass your gramatical tests with flair, as you knew exactly what they
were going to ask you, eg which verbs to conjugate, but when faced with
a real world situation, such as asking directions you were flummoxed.
Yes you could start the conversation, but once you got an answer that
didn't fit within your limited range of answers, you were stuck.  And
how often would you think you understood the answer, and go off yamina
smola yashar yashar ad hasof, only to discover that you really hadn't
understood at all, and you were hopelessly lost).

And it is bad enough when there is one form of incomplete transmission,
when there is two it is terrible.  There is a hilarious book (called
something like "English as she is spoke") which purports to be an
English phrasebook.  However, the author did not speak a word of
English.  How did he construct the phrasebook?  He spoke some language
(like Spanish or Portugese), and he had as Spanish (say)- French
dictionary, and he also had a French-English dictionary.  And he
constructed his phrasebook by use of these two dictionaries, ie
translating the words he wanted from Spanish to French, and then French
to English.  His assumptions were perfectly logical, coming from his
language background but as you can imagine, for a native English
speaker, it is the funniest thing out.  Take the title for example.  How
would somebody from a European language background know that you would
not refer to English as "she".  

In the past, some of this may have been aleviated if one learnt directly
from one's mother.  After all, one's mother is the person who is
genetically most similar to one's self (other than perhaps sisters), and
may well have very similar patterns. (in fact, on one issue that was
panicking me at the time, I did indeed ask my mother, because something
she had said in passing many many years ago had suggested to me that she
and my father had had the same problem. But my mother left shortly
afterward to go back to Australia, and it is not so easy to have such
conversations long distance).

>
>Another point husbands have to be involved too, and Seforim write how it is 
>most important to study these laws over and over, there was one great sage 
>who studied this 1000 times.

Well my Robert is certainly involved - more involved than he would like,
actually, because like most women, I am not comfortable going to a Rav.
My personal preference, to be honest, is to wait rather than to go to a
Rav, but as this is not a decision that only involves me and my
preferences, the "deal" is that I will alert him when I think I have a
shiala, and he can decide whether he wishes to ask or wait.  Generally
he asks, but when the person he asks was on holiday, he preferred to
wait as well.  He is not crazy about it, it has forced him to know far
more about woman's biology than he ever really wanted to know and he
would really prefer that I handled it all, and just told him yes or no,
so I think if one of these yoetzet turned up in England he would find it
a great relief, but we discussed trying to ask our shialas to Israel and
realised that for something as time sensitive as this, it is just not
practical. 

 But that is because I feel able at least to talk to my husband. I
confess that doubt that most kallas are in that situation.  Very few
kallas went out as long as we did (we went out three times, each for a
number of months, before we got engaged).  We are also both much more
exposed to the outside world than many kallas (even if it is nothing
like the movies, and the information provided by secular newspapers are
of only a limited use) and also older (and hence presumably less shy).
We both went to university and work in mixed environments and are used
to talking to members of the opposite sex, and to hearing things at
work. And one of the reasons I married Robert was because he was
somebody whom I really could talk to about just about everything. And
*I* find it hard enough to talk to my husband about these kind of
issues, it is really really difficult. We are taught so much to hide all
this, and not discuss and keep it private. I find it almost impossible
to believe that your average kalla is able to really talk to her
husband.  Sure, after 15 years of marriage, that's different.  But
somehow I suspect that there aren't so many shailas at the point anyway.
The really critical time is when you are starting out on married life.
And if I feel like I was completely and totally unprepared and
inadequate and bewildered I just don't know how your more typical kalla
copes.  However, I would guess from the statistics, the answer is "in
silence".

Although while covering this ground, while the biggest issue for me is
embarressment, I am not sure that the statistics showing the women do
not ask the number of shialas that must be out there is in all cases
caused by embarressment.  I have no evidence to prove it, but I suspect
that sometimes women may be being machmir for other reasons.  For
example, the first time I went to mikvah back in Engand, I mentioned to
the mikva lady afterwards that I was still new to it, and she expressed
surprise that, as a kalla, I had not been afraid of the water.  Now
growing up in Australia, where everybody is taught to swim at a very
early age, I certainly have no fear of water, but she says that a lot
kallas she sees are absolutely terrified.  Of course it is impossible to
know how many women are machmir on their bedikas because they would
rather put off the ordeal of going to mikva, but it is hard to believe
there are not some.  Just as there are probably some women who don't
want to admit that they prefer the times when they are in nida to the
times when they are not, and seeing things that aren't there may well be
easier than facing that truth. (And while talking to your husband about
the former problem might be a possibility, the latter certainly isn't.
And even for the former, he can't come with you to encourage you, and
the mikva lady is deliberately anonamous so relationship building is
difficult). Of course, you do not need to be learned in all of hilchos
nida to assist with these problems (a pychology degree would probably be
of more use), but you do to spot the halachic problems that arise out of
the situation once the encouragement has helped the woman open up.  

>
>Kol Tuv
>
>Yitzchok Zirkind

Shavuah tov

Chana

>
>P.S. there are 14 kinds of Vestos.
>

Will have to check it out further. May be practical ramifications.  Well
at least somebody learnt something from this exchange.

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Question: is it realistic to expect husbands to ask sensistive she'los on
> behalf of their wives?
 
> If yes, the Yoatzot are {apparently} unncecessary.
> If no, then they ARE necessary and not optional.

From: "Michael Poppers" <MPoppers@kayescholer.com>
> From Rabbanit C. Henkin:
> > For reasons of modesty, women do not wish to, and often will not, 
> > discuss a hilkhot nidda question with a man.
> For reasons of privacy, some women don't want to discuss their situations
> with *any* non-family member.  For reasons of modesty, some women want
> their husbands to bring Halachic questions to their Rav.  Call me dense, but
> I don't see how the point in the ... CHenkin sentence buttresses her program

To answer both points: I personally find it icky dealing with the bedika
cloth.  So my wife has to overcome what she knows is my revulsion for 
even trying to ask a question.  She needs me as an intermediary because
our LOR won't talk to her - I think it's his own personal quirk, but 
when we went to ask him a shaila recently, her shaila, he talked at me
and wouldn't look at her.  And what if he needs more details?

So I'm generalizing from my own situation.  So sue me.
 
> Jon further stated:
> > Remember, for the woman to ask the rav, she has to go
> through an intermediary, who may or may not want to be involved, so
> she not only has to convince herself to ask, she has to convince either
> the Rebbetzin or her husband to ask, and in either case, details can
> be lost in transmission. <
> and I have to second YZirkind's comment via a rhetorical question: who says
> she has to go through an intermediary?  If she does use an intermediary
> (e.g. her husband), she would assuredly ensure that said intermediary has
> all the relevant details in hand.

And will she and/or her husband know what all the relevant details *are*
ahead of time?  What if the rabbi asks for clarification?  If for no other
reason, having technically trained yoatzot will help with THIS problem.

RMS Dratch writes:
> meeting of the Vaad haRabbonim in Toronto, of which I used to be a member 
> before relocating, I remember the rabbanim discussing the number of women who 
> were attending the mikvaos in town and the number that should have been 
> attending (and no there weren't that many pregnant women in town) and the 
> discrepancy was alarming.  
> 
> So something's broke, my chaveirim, and we need to do everything that we can 
> to fix it!

So it's not just the Jewish Week article, we have a second witness:
a rav (or community of rabbanim) who is puzzled by the relative dearth
of THM questions.
 
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> - --- "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com> wrote:
> > (except possibly at one minyan in Israel which has somehow decided
> > that its kavod allows women to lein) 
 
> I'm curious about this.  Do you know the background on this?  Were
> any rabbanim involved?

I'm still waiting to hear.  It was mentioned on the Women's Tefillah
Network list that Kehillat Yedidya (?) had made such a determination. 
I've asked for details, but haven't gotten a reply yet.

       Jonathan Baker     |  Marches-wan, marches-two,
       jjbaker@panix.com  |  March the months all through and through

>>>there was no great crisis in taharas ha'mishpocho... But it would be nice 
to have some solid evidence to its existence.<<<

1. Must we have a crisis to precipitate any attempt at introducing any 
positive changes?  
 2. Since there is no issur involved couldn't the burden of proof be flicked 
your way to prove that there is anything wrong with yoatzot?  The only 
arguement you present is the dangers that will emerge  - which only the test 
of time will provide evidence for.  

I never realized it till this year (which may just be my ignorance): Avraham 
was 48 at the time of the Dor Hapalagah (Seder Olam) and acc. to one opnion 
in B"R he was 48 when he had hakarat haBoreih.  I found the 'missing link'  
in PKDR"A (24) where Avraham is descrived as becoming chosen by Hashem 
because of his reaction to builders of the tower.  

-Chaim

(Of course you can have ta'anos bec. of the girsas HaRAmbam/RaDaK in B"R that 
Avraham was 40..oh well)

I am the proud alumnus of a Hesder yeshiva (three years in Sha'alvim).

I, therefore, do not appreciate being lectured on their comparative merits.

If I am in error, I am happy to accept correction without assuming that I am
biased c"v against hesder yeshivos.

I did not mean to intimate that Charedi yeshivos have semicha programs of
the type that I meant. They do not.

What I meant is a program that teaches not just the material necessary to
pass a bechina, but rather hands-on shimush in eruvin, nidda, etc.

My exprerience in yeshivos across the board has been that the overwhelming
majority of  them do not provide such training. This was true in the past
consistently. Ariel/Machon Harry Fischel, because of its mission was
different.

If the situation has changed today, then I apologize from extrapolating from
my personal experience and observation to today's situation.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila



----- Original Message -----
From: <toramada@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Avodah V4 #40


> Rabbi Bechhofer:
>
> Studying for semicha bechinos is not what I mean by a semicha program.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
> =========================
>
> That was a pretty snide remark.
>
> Next time your are in Israel spend a few hours at any Hesder Kollel in
Israel and then
> talk.  It would be wiser.
>
> Semicha programs are in addition to regular limud, which in Hesder
Kollelim is on a
> very high level and includes not just Sh"s but all subjects (torah, n"ch,
philosophy
> etc.).
>
> I think many have, without really intending to do so, become infected with
the popular
> view that if something has to do with RZ it definitely has to be on a
lower level than
> RW (I think that is what you called it, I'm referring to Chareidi
Yeshivot).
>
> I think that true MO RZ realize that the truth is that much more is
demanded of them
> than of any Chareidi Bachur.  They have to study the same, but they are
expected to
> also carry at least part of the burden of their livelihood and army
service.  While it
> is not "proof" the fact that so many Hesder graduates pass the same
rabbinical exams
> that the Chareidi Yeshiva Bachurim pass, for both regular Semicha and
Dayanut, should
> have lifted the veil of pride that has blinded people to the wonderful
future these
> rabbis can lead us to -- a future where rabbis who are doctors,is not just
a folk tale
> in the G'mara, where Rabbis earning their living is a fact of life.
>
> All the best
>
> Shoshana
>
> -------------------------------------
> Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
> E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
> Date: 16/10/99
> Time: 08:34:42 PM , Israel
>
> This message was sent by Chameleon
> -------------------------------------
> Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
> "Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
> any and all related information would be welcome.
>

Meir Shinnar wrote: <<<  This is not directly related to the issues of
"Orthodox feminism", but is rather a modern notion of zniut. ... There is
a reluctance to discuss, or even have discussed by others (one perhaps
novel aspect of this zniut), one's intimate bodily functions with a male,
even someone in a supposedly objective, professional role. >>>

Rich Wolpoe asked: <<< friend of mine took to task anyone {including shy
wives} who is inhibited from asking a Shei'lo. As far as shy wives go,
they can use their husbands to ask the sensitive questions on their
behalf. Question: is it realistic to expect husbands to ask sensistive
she'los on behalf of their wives? >>>

I think men have no idea how sensitive women are to these sort of issues.
We are not talking just about questions like, "Can we do such-and-such
while nidah?", or "Does such-and-such constitute a Veses Kavua". We mean
things like, "I'm bleeding, and here look at this, I wiped up my insides,
tell me if I'm tamay." Few women are willing to go directly to the rav
with such a cloth, and even sending it to the rav via her husband is very
embarrassing. How can she let herself be seen now that he has seen that
cloth?

Meir Shinnar called this a "modern" notion of tznius. I tend to suspect
that he is correct. How did women deal with this in Beis Hamikdash times,
when tumah and tahara affected so many more aspects of daily life. And
the future? I can easily envision families (even among kohanim) where the
wife will decide that the kitchen will serve tamay food only, so that
everyone will be clueless about her period. Husbands who want to eat
tahor or trumah can go to the restaurants which will specialize in such
things. Nowadays, it is a bit uncomfortable when a woman is a nidah at
the Seder, but when we have a Korban Pesach to deal with, the whole
neighborhood will know that she was unable to share in it. 

If there are any men who think that I'm wrong, please discuss it with
your wives and let us know what they think. And those women who are
lurking out there, I hope Micha won't mind if you sent him your thoughts
(addressed to him, not to the list) and asked him to post it anonymously.

Shavua Tov,
Akiva Miller

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One more comment about eruv in the modern city.
In the days before our community had an eruv I do not recall ever seing
anyone walking to shul with an umbrella. Today was a rainy morning and
there were more open umbrellas than I care to count. Is it just that
they don't care or is it that they don't know and their Rabbis have not
gone over the what an eruv does not permit.
shavua tov
steve

----- Original Message -----
From: <MSDratch@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 3:32 PM
Subject: Yoatzot


> Kenneth G Miller cites "An interesting article is available on the web. It
> seems to be an excerpt from a larger article, and I can't tell whether the
> full title is "Women
> and the Issuing of Halakhic Rulings by Chanah Henkin", or possibly just
> "Women and the Issuing of Halakhic Rulings", written by Rabbanit Henkin."
>
> There, Rabbanit Henkin writes:
>
> R. Chaim Yosef David Azulai, the eminent 18th century Jerusalem-born
sephardi
> sage, rules in his Birkei Yosef that although a woman cannot judge, she
can
> pasken, issue a halakhic ruling, and this is the meaning of "hayta
melamedet
> lahem hadinim" in Tosafot. He writes that the fact that a woman can issue
a
> halakhic ruling is proven by Sefer haChinukh who, in Mitzva 83, agrees
that a
> woman cannot judge, and on the other hand, in Mitzva 152, writes that a
woman
> may not issue a halakhic ruling while drunk. This opinion of the Birkei
Yosef
> is cited by the Pitchei Teshuva.
>
> This thread has not been pursued in this discussion.  Apparently the
ability
> to render p'sak is not a function of one's obligation in Talmud Torah or
in
> his/her ability to function as a dayyan.
>

Agreed. While one cannot build a psak halacha from the position of a single
posek, even one as eminent as the Chida, without a comprehensive review of
all the relevant sources, and there are likely quite a few that disagree,
let us stipulate for the moment that a woman that has acquired knowledge on
a certain area can pasken in that area. This is, however, a sparate thread.
I do not recall that we have discussed here whether the women who have
undergone this training might be allowed to pasken or not. Indeed, I believe
they are probably allowed to pasken - it is the people involved in the
implementation of the program that insist on the quaint euphemism
"Yo'atzot". As I am tired of repeating, but must because people seem not to
be reading (I am not referring here to RMD, but others), the question that I
am raising, by now, ad nauseum, is how one can be so confident (arrogant?)
as to assert that this is unalloyed good and positive when there are several
readily identifiable problems that can be associated with this program.

> Another issue that is being ignores, and as a proud MO it grieves me to
> discuss it publicly, many of our women are not going to the mikvah (some
go
> before they want to become pregnant, afraid of a pgam, others not at all.)
> This is true in many cities and (challilah, I do not want to be chosheid
> bich-sheirim or motzi la'az) possibly across the religious spectrum.  At a
> meeting of the Vaad haRabbonim in Toronto, of which I used to be a member
> before relocating, I remember the rabbanim discussing the number of women
who
> were attending the mikvaos in town and the number that should have been
> attending (and no there weren't that many pregnant women in town) and the
> discrepancy was alarming.
>
> So something's broke, my chaveirim, and we need to do everything that we
can
> to fix it!
>

I think many of us are well aware of that crisis, but it is the opinion of
many of us here that it is not one best remedied by the existence of
yo'atzos for Hilchos Nidda, and that this problem was not necessarily the
prime motivation for this program. I think R' Henkin's essay makes that
abundantly clear.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

It is always more fun to argue with your brother in law :-).

----- Original Message -----
From: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: crisis? evidence?


> >>>there was no great crisis in taharas ha'mishpocho... But it would be
nice
> to have some solid evidence to its existence.<<<
>
> 1. Must we have a crisis to precipitate any attempt at introducing any
> positive changes?

Not necessarily. But:

1. In the absence of an idenitifiable crisis in this area, with so many
other critical fires raging in our community, the question of why allocate
resources here becomes significant.

2. It becomes more difficult to accept that the purpose of this program is
to avert a crisis if that crisis does not exist.

3. In the absence of such a crisis, it is even harder to confirm that this
is the most effective means to counter the eventual crisis.

4. How  was it determined that this is a positive change?

>  2. Since there is no issur involved couldn't the burden of proof be
flicked
> your way to prove that there is anything wrong with yoatzot?  The only
> arguement you present is the dangers that will emerge  - which only the
test
> of time will provide evidence for.
>

Again,  I am repeating: I can't prove a thing. Nor can anyone else. No one
will be able to prove anything until five to ten years down the line. Which
is a cause for trepidation. At the very least, the proponents of this
program should fufill Dovid Ha'Melech's dictum: "Gilu b'Re'ada" - "Rejoice
with Trembling". I have yet to see someone on the other side of this issue
(which seems to include an overwhelming majority of members of the Avodah
list) concede even that much.

Will you, Chaim?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

After almost being overcharged by over 100% on a bottle of wine due to a
scanner error this past Friday at a local kosher supermarket, the following
he'oro struck me:

When shopping at a Jewish-owned supermarket, perhaps more especially so with
a scanner, one needs to check if the price on the receipt matches the one on
the shelf.

If the shopkeeper undercharged, you may be required to correct him/her
because ta'us Yisroel is assur. This may not be the case, however, as
perhaps dina d'malchusa requires the storekeeper to give you the scanned
price. If anyone has any information, please advise us.

If the shopkeeper overcharged, assuming you are not interested in having
him/her roasted over those coals in the Hereafter, you must either be mochel
the geneiva/ono'oh or request a refund. Otherwise, the shopkeeper is
transgressing one of those prohibitions.

These parameters do not necesarily apply to a non-Jewish owned store.

Comments?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Rabbi B writes

>These women will pasken better because the resources etc. that should
have
> gone into making emes'er morei horo'o and gedolei torah is being
deprived
> the boys and being given the girls. This is, in my opinion, bad.

No...I disagree...The only resource needed for Talmud Torah---setting
aside
times to learn and sticking to them---is EQUALLY available to everybody.

The trouble with some advanced yeshivoth today is that there are no 
chazarahs and tests and attempts to consolidate periodically.

Russell
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David Glasners question is answered by my suggestion that 
Genesis 1 is talking about the creation of prophecy not the
creation of the world. In other words man was created 
1 million years ago, but the first prophet (Adam) was 
created 6000 years ago.

Kayn was a prophet also (since he spoke to God). 
Apparently when he was banished he made cities 
and tried to live with non-prophets (REcall that 
King David lost his prophecy after his sin).

All this will appear in my presentation at the 3rd
international congress on Science and Religion

Russell
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Joel Rich writes 

>>>>>>>>>>
How about those on the outside who are already saying "if women(mothers)
in 
the orthodox community [all shades) are working outside the home
already(and 
in many cases taking professions that do require extensive training) and
thus 
"skimping" on the traditional role,  why can't they take up roles such as

these as well?"

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just for the record---Joel's argument is EXACTLY why the Chafetz
Chaiim allowed them to learn Torah (Because they are learning other
subjects anyway)

Russell
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