Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 048

Tuesday, October 19 1999

• Yoatzot administrivia
• Cause for Trepidation
• Fw: Stream of Consciousness
• Re: Fw: Stream of Consciousness
• yoatzot
• Re: Fw: Stream of Consciousness
• Re: Yoatzot
• Hey in middle of word, random grammer stuff.
• Re: rav kook
• The Zohar on Derash
• Answer to HM: Most people do Mitzvoth for Social reasons (Bracoth)
• An apology from Rabbi Bechoffoer?
• REligious affiliation on Shop Rite Cards
• The destruction of Hungarian Jewry

We've so far seen roughly 90 posts on yoatzot, and little if any new ground
for the last 70 of them. Instead, the same information is repeated with ever
increasing heat. We've done much better at discussing a potentially divisive
issue with little mud-slinging. We could still do better, though. However, I'd
like to quit while we're ahead.

This requires some discipline, as people are going to reply with the same
comments yet again before reading this post. So do me a favor, instead of
chasing around the same circle yet again, think if you are adding something
significant before replying.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 18-Oct-99: Levi, Lech-Lecha
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 55a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation


>     I'm not reffering to who's right and wrong.  I'm merely pointing out
> that the RW ( those who claim to seek to always act lifnim meshurat hadin)
> seems not to care about a rift.  Perhaps MO should learn by example.
>

Perhaps you are right. It would certainly make life more interesting.

>     And none as far as I know who openly disagreed.  While it may not be
> technically on point, "Shtikah Kehoda'ah" comes to mind.
>

Well, I do not think that technically applies here. Nevertheless, you may
have a point. Perhaps, indeed, the entire RW does detest the MO. In which
case, it is completely understandable that you hold that the MO should
ignore the RW. The question, then, becomes, who will lead the MO in terms of
the halachic issues that will doubtless arise? That too will be interesting.

>     Is there really a choice.  If the Agudah does not really reflect the
> feelings of it's laity, why then do they continue to pay mmebersip to it?
> If the ba'alei batim don't like the schul, they should leave.  By staying,
> they ratify what occurs.
>

I do not know how many actual members the Agudah has. But, many of them are
members for other benefits the Agudah provides (health insurance, chevra
kadisha, etc.) or because it most closely approximates what they would like,
not because it is precisely what they feel.

>     Have any of the above named come out publicaly against the idea?

Beats me!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Thoughts of my anonymous correspondent:

----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 1:51 PM
Subject: Stream of Consciousness


> Dear Rabbi:
> Because of a (morbid?) fascination, I looked again at the Aish Das 
> archives.  I asked myself why your ideas on Poskot/Yoatzot are 
> apparently not getting across.  It's largely because some people 
> have adopted the "sports model of Judaism" or the "political model 
> of Judaism", in which the "Right Wing" is either the hated team 
> from another city or the hated other party---either way, the Right 
> Wing "have" to be viewed as an enemy, and their positions "have" 
> to be considered as subjective.   So if your views in a given case 
> are even-handed or (gasp) show agreement with the "Right Wing", 
> no trivial consideration like objective reality can be enough to get 
> you a hearing.  What is the solution?  This is tough.  For teshuva 
> and reconciliation to take place, we all have to view ourselves 
> objectively in the context of Halacha, not as members of a "team" 
> or "party" with an extra-halachic agenda.  To promote this view, 
> maybe those "MO" and "RW" poskim who talk to each other need 
> jointly to set up workshops or other events, or publications.  
> Sincerely,

In a message dated 10/18/99 2:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< 
 > Dear Rabbi:
 > Because of a (morbid?) fascination, I looked again at the Aish Das 
 > archives.  I asked myself why your ideas on Poskot/Yoatzot are 
 > apparently not getting across.  It's largely because some people 
 > have adopted the "sports model of Judaism" or the "political model 
 > of Judaism", in which the "Right Wing" is either the hated team 
 > from another city or the hated other party---either way, the Right 
 > Wing "have" to be viewed as an enemy, and their positions "have" 
 > to be considered as subjective.   So if your views in a given case 
 > are even-handed or (gasp) show agreement with the "Right Wing", 
 > no trivial consideration like objective reality can be enough to get 
 > you a hearing.  What is the solution?  This is tough.  For teshuva 
 > and reconciliation to take place, we all have to view ourselves 
 > objectively in the context of Halacha, not as members of a "team" 
 > or "party" with an extra-halachic agenda.  To promote this view, 
 > maybe those "MO" and "RW" poskim who talk to each other need 
 > jointly to set up workshops or other events, or publications.  
 > Sincerely,
  >>
 2 thoughts in reply:
1. This response would have been equally valid (or invalid)  if the RW and MO 
had been reversed

2.I'd suggest its the laity rather than the poskim (or at least both) who 
should be setting up the joint events.  I'm not a sociologist but it's my 
impression that lasting change more readily occurs when it's bottom up (for 
example - how many Rabbis/Poskim are in favor of talking during tfila ?) The 
one on one interchanges will also reduce the "demonization" of  "the other 
side". We often have RW visitors for weekday tfila in our MO shul and I've 
been in some very RW shuls to catch tfila btzibbur. I have never seen or 
experienced anything but respect and hachnasat orchim in these situations. Is 
anyone aware of any efforts in this direction? - I for one would welcome the 
opportunity.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

I have been following this thread on Avodah for quite some time.
Although I generally prefer to abstain from entering the fray, I think
that this is an exception.

Having recently gotten married, Hilchos Niddah as a practical realm of
halachah is new to me.

In the space of such a short time, it has become quite apparent to me
that there is a sorry state of affairs with respect to basic knowledge
regarding the halacha in the first place as well as asking questions.

I personally was very lucky to have a very learned Kallah teacher who
has spent many years learning Hilchos Niddah.  In addition, her husband
is a Niddah posek who also teaches "chassan classes". I personally am
also lucky that my husband is happy to ask a posek whatever questions we
have had -- for us.

Discussions with others (both right wing chareidi and MO) has indicated
that there is both a lack of knowledge and misinformation in areas such
as vestos, harchakos, hilchos teveila, etc. - and span the gamut.

My kallah teacher (name available upon request) could not emphasize
enough reasons to ask questions about every detail and mention possible
situations to ask questions and the potential benefit of asking them.

However, the truth is that most women in most every community (across
all spectrums of Orthodoxy) both don't like to ask questions (especially
because the available outlet is to men) and are most often machmir as a
result.

Just this past Shabbas, I met R. Bier, the (right wing, I think Lakewood
affiliated) rosh kollel in Boston, walking to shul.  After a few minutes
of conversation (welcoming me to the community, etc.), he volunteered
that he was giving a 3 session class in Hilchos Niddah.  He first almost
apologized about the fact that he was male and that it was funny that he
was giving the class.  He then told me that he thinks that there is a
tremendous problem in this area.  He said that most women either don't
like asking questions or assume that there is no reason to ask --
despite the fact that most often the answer is more lenient than they
otherwise assume.  He said that he thinks that this area is the source
of many marital problems... He also said that people are also unaware of
the most basic issues in this regard.

I have been told more than once by more than one person that they would
rather be machmir on themselves than ask a she'ayla -- unless they could
do so through a women.  I have also been told, more than once, that not
all husbands are interested in asking these questions either -- and
often refuse.

Some of these same people have told me that they call their mikvah lady
to ask her or have her relay their questions.  The mikvah ladies do
often relay answers to questions they know and refer others.

My (very little) personal experience and added observations indicate
that many of the mikvah ladies could be more knowledgable -- and it
would go a VERY long way.  Though I have found these people to be among
the nicest and most compassionate people I have met, I have also found
that their knowledge of halacha could be more intricate and more precise
(which is not necesseraly surprising if they learn everything they need
to know about the halachic aspects of being a mikvah lady in 2
sessions).

Whether or not it is ideal, it is a fact that almost all women would
prefer to ask another women questions referring to these areas of
halacha (other areas as well, but that is a discussion for another
day)-- especially when the situation is straightforward.  There is A
LOT of room for improvement in this area. (The fact that not all
husbands are comfortable asking the Rav need also be taken into
account).

Women who learn these halachos can potentially help in the observance of
these mitzvos.  Several people that have learned these halachos in depth
have already started by teaching women about the halacha more
knowledgeably and more accurately.  A more informed woman will know when
it is appropriate to ask a question in the first place and will be more
likely to do so. The increased observance of these halachos is a direct
result of this.

Additionally,  the presence of such women in the community will enable
those who wouldn't otherwise ask questions to do so. The mikvah lady or
Rebbetzin or other person who acts as a middleman adds an extra level in
between the person who asks the question to the respondant.  In addition
to whatever inaccuracies may creep in as a result (aka broken telephone)
- no extra knowledge is imparted to the questioner which can enable them
to act more intelligently the next time around.

Even those women who are comfortable asking a rav their own questions
will often refrain from asking unless they view it as absolutely
neccesary or will not describe the situation in as much detail as would
be ideally warranted.

Whether or not I would choose to ask my own questions to a yo'etzet were
that option available to me, I think that their existence would add a
lot to the level of communal observance in the long run.  I would no
doubt be interested in learning from these people who are much more
knowledgeable than most Kallah teachers and would be quite comfortable
with it.

While my personal position regarding the yo'atzot is immaterial, I think
that the question we should be addressing is: what are the halachic
barriers (if any) with regards to these programs and how can we
incorporate women with greater knowledge about this area of halacha into
the system to increase observance of these mitzvos.

Bracha Epstein
bracha@gte.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <Joelirich@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Stream of Consciousness


> In a message dated 10/18/99 2:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:
>
> <<
>  > Dear Rabbi:
>  > Because of a (morbid?) fascination, I looked again at the Aish Das
>  > archives.  I asked myself why your ideas on Poskot/Yoatzot are
>  > apparently not getting across.  It's largely because some people
>  > have adopted the "sports model of Judaism" or the "political model
>  > of Judaism", in which the "Right Wing" is either the hated team
>  > from another city or the hated other party---either way, the Right
>  > Wing "have" to be viewed as an enemy, and their positions "have"
>  > to be considered as subjective.   So if your views in a given case
>  > are even-handed or (gasp) show agreement with the "Right Wing",
>  > no trivial consideration like objective reality can be enough to get
>  > you a hearing.  What is the solution?  This is tough.  For teshuva
>  > and reconciliation to take place, we all have to view ourselves
>  > objectively in the context of Halacha, not as members of a "team"
>  > or "party" with an extra-halachic agenda.  To promote this view,
>  > maybe those "MO" and "RW" poskim who talk to each other need
>  > jointly to set up workshops or other events, or publications.
>  > Sincerely,
>   >>


>  2 thoughts in reply:
> 1. This response would have been equally valid (or invalid)  if the RW and
MO
> had been reversed
>

This is 100% true and the tragedy of Orthodoxy in our day and age.

> 2.I'd suggest its the laity rather than the poskim (or at least both) who
> should be setting up the joint events.  I'm not a sociologist but it's my
> impression that lasting change more readily occurs when it's bottom up
(for
> example - how many Rabbis/Poskim are in favor of talking during tfila ?)
The
> one on one interchanges will also reduce the "demonization" of  "the other
> side". We often have RW visitors for weekday tfila in our MO shul and I've
> been in some very RW shuls to catch tfila btzibbur. I have never seen or
> experienced anything but respect and hachnasat orchim in these situations.
Is
> anyone aware of any efforts in this direction? - I for one would welcome
the
> opportunity.
>

That is a very good idea. I do not know of efforts in this direction, but I
think implementation of your idea would truly be a giant step forward.

I still think that "b'ze'er anpin" the Avodah group is an effort in that
direction as well.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In message , Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> writes
>I remember this period very well, I am not that old :-). Although the
>questions are valid, and may yet justify the creation of the "Yo'etzes" on a
>certain level, that was not my point.
>
>My points, as I reiterate, are that it is questionable whether this is the
>necessary or best resolution for this limited problem, whether this was the
>absolute motivation for this development, and whether one should not tremble
>somewhat, even if one feels this is a positive move, from potential negative
>ramifications.
>
>If I may ask you point blank Chana, can we agree on that?
>

Sorry, I am so far behind in my Avodah reading that I think I am
answering things digests behind (some of us also have husbands and jobs
that have to take priority).  I probably agree more with your statement
further on in the digest, about fear and trembling.  Although, I guess I
leave the fear and trembling to others. Funnily enough, a couple of
months ago, somebody with whom I was in email correspondence suggested
to me that maybe I should start "training in hilchos nida" as he felt
there was a definite need.  I said that if I was planning to do that, I
would join Rabbanit Henkin's Nishmat programme (although I doubt I have
the background in learning to be accepted, but we were talking
theoretically here), but having learnt how difficult and painful the
whole subject matter could be, that I myself did not want to be the
instrument of transmitting that pain.  

I think my correspondent felt that I was refusing to take
responsibility, and of course I am, and maybe the true answer is that I
don't have the yiras shamayim for it.  But there are even greater
dangers, in seeking to shlug off responsibility, in minimising the
existance of the problem (if there isn't a problem, one has no
obligation to do anything about it).  Its a huge problem, and is not
just limited to kallas (although that is where it starts, because the
patterns established in the first few months are going to be the
patterns of your married life).  And as a "consumer", the new solution
is terrific (having advance knowledge, I even tried to get a presale
preview, only being thwarted by geography).

Is it an unquestionable good for klal yisroel?  To be honest, I would
rather not consider that too closely.  Everything has its dangers and
temptations.  But what if I considered the matter and decided that it
was unquestionably good for klal yisroel as my correspondent has done?
Well there aren't exactly a lot of women around in a position to qualify
for this programme.  The current graduates are terrific, but they have
been a long time in the production.  And while there are are few more
coming through the ranks, and the numbers are growing, those numbers are
still extremely few.  And while I may not have the background in
learning today, I am still a lot further down the track than many.  If I
threw in my job and devoted myself to full time learning (and the
poverty that goes with it) for the next few years ...

It is not an easy question that you ask me. 

>Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
>Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
>ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
>

Kind Regards

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

RRHendel writes: <This one I believe came from Moshe, Micah and Mechy--they
wanted to know when there is ETH vs AYS (ie when there is a cantillation vs
none)>
For the record i did not inquire at all. though i do appreciate the
alliteration.

RRussel also writes: <Rabbi Elazar Teitz writes about a HAY in the middle of
a word that >the t'nuah is an indication to pronounce the heh. When there is
no
>t'nuah, it is not pronounced if there is no sh'va (e.g., P'du[h]tzur),
>and is pronounced if there is a sh'va (e.g., k'mahpechath).
I am not a 100% sure about this. I was under the impression that
the HAY is NEVER pronounced.
As to why certain words have a SHVA and other dont I understood
that 
>>>The HAY of MAH PAY CAT is punctuated because IT IS A ROOT LETTER
>>>The HAY of PDHAL is punctuated so that we should know how to 
separate the syllables PDH AL vs PD HAL.>

R. teitz is correct, at least insofar as one may term a common communal
tradition to be "correct". there are of course many other pronunciation
traditions - e.g. the italian tradition which treats the hey as a zero which
may be closer to russel's take.  The lack of any punctuation on a hey (as in
pido(h)tzur)renders it a nullity, i.e. the word is pronounced like any other
word with an unvoweled letter, as though it's not there - after the
paradigms of yisochor and ruvain.  with a shivoh (and many believe that any
shivoh under a hey in mid word is noch, others do not)in the most common
ashqenazi tradition, it is pronounced. i.e. a hey with a shivoh noch is
precisely a mapiq hey and pronounced just like the somewhat better known
mapiq hey at the end of a word, which has its own dot symbol.

RRussel has also referred a few timess to the, admittedly widely
promulgated, view that the pi'el represents an intensification of the action
over the qal form of the word. While such schemes have certainly been
proposed (invariably illustrated by the sho'var-she'beir pairing, but in the
more general presentations ranging beyond the supposed po'al-pi'el pairing
to include nif'al and hof'al as supposed less intense forms of pu'al and
hif'il) it is at the very best, highly controversial.  it is in fact
impossible to state that going from the qal to a pi'el form will generally
result in such intensification. in fact it may result in word pairs with no
semantic connection at all. e.g. simply consider such qal-pi'el pairings as:
so'faq-see'peiq, bo'shal-bee'sheil, so'chaq-see'cheiq. additionally for many
words, the supposed complement simply doesn't exist, e.g. chee'deish,
tzi'voh.

Mechy Frankel				W: (703) 325-1277
michael.frankel				H: (301) 593-3949 

In response to my remark that:  <I recall the assertion as well that R. Kook
withdrew his negative pisaq about the right of woman to vote (in jewish
agency elections during the mandate) following protests by R. yehudah L
maimon that nobody had asked him, which logic R. kook, upon reflection
agreed with..>  REClark wrote: 
<I don't recall this. R. Maimon (ne Fishman) and other Mizrachi leaderswere
certainly chagrined when the rav for whom they created the officeof chief
rabbi took a militant position against women voting, which theysupported.
But I do not remember R. Kook backing down. My primarysource on this
controversy is Menahem Friedman's Dat u-Medinah, but i donot remember him
writing that R. Kook conceded the issue. Is Friedmanyour source?>
actually no. indeed i have been trying to wring the source from my memory
bank all last weekend (i.e on two separate days i gave many tens of
microseconds of intense thought to the matter), with only partial success.
My best guess is that I heard this asserted, a long time ago, by R. Shlomo
Riskin in a public lecture on the topic of women rabbis.  i have now
e-mailed R. Riskin (or at least e-mailed what purports to be his office -
the only address i could find for him in a hasty internet search) asking
him, in the event my memory fingering him was uncharacteristically accurate
here, if he could direct me to the source for his own assertion.  i am not
real confident of a reply (we do not know each other) but if i get one i'll
certainly share it. I wish i could offer you a moqore more mutzoq and
miheimon al habi'riyos, say a document of record like Yated, but that's the
best i can do.
After i wrote: < this assumption of a much broader communal "right" to
issue>halachic declarations on issues related to public policy, when that
public>had not solicited such guidance, was of course the heart of Larry
Kaplan's>famous (or -charedi - infamous) article on daas torah> 
REli writes: .<Funny>  (glad he caught the humor, one can be too subtle)  <I
thought the heart of the article was that da'as Torah promouncements were
different from pesak because they did not involvehalakhic reasoning or cite
halakhic sources.>   yeah, that too.

Mechy Frankel				H: (301) 593-3949
michael.frankel@dtra.mil		W: (703) 325-1277
mechyfrankel@zdnetonebox.com

The Zohar in Mishpatim says 

>>for the words of the Torah are not like dreams
>>AND EVEN IF THEY WERE LIKE DREAMS
>>then DREAMS TOO HAVE RULES OF 
>>INTERPRETATION.

In other words, if Dream interpreters pay attention
to Chaser/Maley, word order etc then we should
at least give the same respect for the Torah

Russell; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
___________________________________________________________________
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Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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A famous Gmarrah says RYBZ (Yochanan ben Zacai) when 
asked to bless his students answered "May your fear of 
Heaven be like your fear of man". When they protested
"Is that all you can give us" he answered "Know that
when a person sins he says 'I hope no one is seeing me'"

So RYBZ holds that most people do miztvoth for social
reasons.

Russell http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
___________________________________________________________________
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Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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I have carefully reviewed all the postings on this
YOATZOTH subject and I don't believe Rabbi YGB
has answered any of them. Furthermore I believe
he owes the group an apology. Here are my (grave)
concerns.

1) It was women not men who are given credit 
with the various Middle Ages Chumrahs (blood 
spot like a grain; everyone a zavah gedolah etc)

2) It is from women not men that we learn the
Biblical rule that one witness is valid in Issur

3) It is women not men who have given the
harshest psaks in Agunah like cases. The perhaps
the most famous case--the women who was married
to someone who thought the duke was after him
and therefore wanted a divorce (because he was
always running) refused (herself) to get married
because of a doubt that perhaps he was a SHOTEH
(She refused the heters that many gave her to get
married).

4) Not withstanding a recentposting trying to show
that Devorah only submitted psaks to be paskined 
the truth of the matter is that credit is given to the
pusher of the psak not to the person who gives it.
The most famous example is that we have Purim
because Esther pushed it thru the Sanhedrin who
had slippery slope concerns (like all men) of 
"ruffling feathers" if Jews celebrate the victory
over non jews.

5) The gist of all the above is that women have paskined
and have created the chumrahs. If anything if we allow
'female posayks' we should probably get more issurs and
more minhagim. The Rav citing Gen4:1 (contrasting the
personal reference to EVE vs the HERD reference to
MAN) pointed out that in general women are more 
personal in sex and men more animalistic. It would
follow that some serious female posayks would 
probably reshape halachah with more meaningful
stringencies that would lead to a higher level of 
frumkeit.

6) The distinction between YOATZOTH and MIKVEH
LADIES is specious. Simply train the YOATZOTH to
be Mikveh ladies and train the mikveh ladies in more
learning.

7) Although serious concerns have been raised to
Rabbi Bechoeffer, he has repeatedly promised to
give us solutions which he hasn't yet. At this
point I must therefore ask him to retract his statement
that programs to make women intensively learn halachah
for purposes of helping in Taharat Mishpacha is a danger
to ANY segment of the Jewish community. The only danger
to the Jewish community comes from people who think
that learning is dangerous or should be superceded by
vague philosophical problems like the emergence of 
female Rabbis. WITHOUT EXCEPTION every Gadol 
Hador from Rav Hirsch to Rav Schneerson have all
said the same thing: Judaism's survival depends upon
more learning. We NEVER have heard any GADOL disparage
any persons attempt to learn. On what grounds are we
attacking these programs. This must be coupled with
the observation that there are serious lacks of
observances in Taharat Mishpacha which can be
remedied by good female role models

8) I really believe that it is outright slander (leshon hara)
to take women who have studied for 2000 hours, who have
learned one of the most difficult sugyas in shas, who are 
going to help less learned people understand these matters
and to turn around and ONLY say OVER and OVER how
there MIGHT be room for concern that THIS MIGHT LEAD
to female Rabbis or men going away from Torah. Leshon
Hara does not require VADAUTH...it simply requires comments
whose tone and meaning undermine a persons integrity and that
is what has happened here. (I would be happy to start a thread
on leshon hara...but I strongly feel that no one has the right
to cast aspersions and doubts on movements or people without
at least simultaenously ALWAYS balancing some of the good they
are going t do).

9) But I believe the above justifies a request for an apology (To
the yoatzoth and to the Jewish community). Furthermore these
postings are detracting this group from more serious topics.

For example, Micah's wife was trainied in detection and handling
of spousal abuse. What hasn't anyone picked up on this. I know
it is a serious problem inthe Jewish community---we have here
a golden opportunity to talk about it...yet all that is done is cast
doubt after doubt that maybe women who have learned 2000 hours
will cause problems. 

I personslly would like to move on to more serious topics And I 
would like a stop to casting aspersions on people in the name of
'concerns for the community'. And if we spend 100 digests on
leshon hara (till we straighten out the permissability of this) I
think we would have accomplished something.

Russell Hendel Phd ASA
Moderator Rashi Is Simple
http:/www.shamash.org/rashi/
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No No michael...

I meant if say 30 people come to reimburse errors found on 
their bill then you would notice if there are no Yamekes among
them. You can then find out from your records what percentage
of people came back


Similarly if Jews can back when errors were made against them..
you could recognize them by their head coverings...again you
could make inferences.

It wasn't a big point....Im just pointing out we shouldn't act like
noone notices

Russell
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Eli Clark writes:

>Surely not.  Some Jews from central Europe who tried to flee in the
>1930's and early war years succeeded.  Sadly, some were told by their
>leaders not to try.  As I said before, it is indefensible to
>second-guess these leaders from the vantage point of the 1990's.

I would really appreciate it if someone could suggest some scholarly
references (including, if possible, from an Orthodox point of view)
regarding the statements and actions of religious leadership in Europe
before and during the war, regarding emigration.  The little that I've
encountered so far has been from an overtly anti-religious perspective,
making it difficult for me to gauge its veracity.  Thanks very much.

Amirom Singer
m-singer@uchicago.edu

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