Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 060

Sunday, October 24 1999

• Re: Gr"a
• Re: Gr"a
• Re: Mikva Ladies, Yoatzot and Qualified Poskim (was Re: Mikvah Ladies)
• Re: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• RW/MO/other frum
• Re: Mazal L'yisrael, Lishma, other he'aros
• to ask a shaila or to take advice?
• RW/LW
• Re: Dina D'malchusa
• Re: to ask a shaila or to take advice?
• RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• Re: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• Re: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis

I heard it many years ago b'shmo. A cursory perusal of sources this morning
did not yield a reference. If I find it I will let the olam know.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer <frimea@mail.biu.ac.il>
To: Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Cc: <ygb@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 3:22 AM
Subject: Gr"a


> Where is the Gr"a Found?
>
> > I believe the objection is from the GRO and applies to singing even with
> > saying "Hashem".
> >
> > Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> > Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> > http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
>

Found it. The Siddur HaGr"a Ishei Yisroel from R' Yitzchok Meltzan cites it.
It is not, however, from the Gr"a but from R' Chaim Volozhiner. The actula
marei mekomos are the She'iltos (AKA Keser Rosh or Orchos Chaim, located in
the back of some editions of the aforementioned siddur and the siddur Otzar
Ha'Tefillos, the equivalent of the Ma'ase Rav for R' Chaim) in some editions
no. 94 and in others no. 130. R' Chaim also oppose singing Shir Hs'Ma'alos
on Shabbos, although it is specified why (R"Y Meltzan brings the reason of
being yotzeh Birkas Ha'Mazon d'orysa for Tzur Meshelo).

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer <frimea@mail.biu.ac.il>
Cc: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Gr"a


> > Where is the Gr"a Found?
> >
> > > I believe the objection is from the GRO and applies to singing even
with
> > > saying "Hashem".
> > >
> > > Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> > > Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> > > http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In message <199910241650.SAA26374@alpha.netvision.net.il>, Carl M.
Sherer <csherer@netvision.net.il> writes
>I would add to this that I think Micha is assuming the model of a 
>"small town" mikva if you will. A mikva with one or two mikva ladies 
>who work every night of the year except Tisha b'Av and Yom 
>Kippur. For example, we spent years 3-10 of our marriage in 
>Passaic, New Jersey (ironically, where Micha lives now). When the 
>mikva in Passaic first opened (1985 or so), it expected to service 
>two women a night, and the mikva lady was an old friend of Adina's 
>from Chicago, so that if we had needed to use her as a go-between 
>with a posek I think Adina might have felt comfortable doing so. 
>Compare that to the mikva in our current neighborhood in 
>Yerushalayim where there are more than 2000 married women, bli 
>ayin hara, most of whom are at a stage in their lives where they are 
>either pregnant, nursing, or going to the mikva every month. While I 
>don't have statistics, I suspect that there are closer to 20-30 ladies 
>a night going, and I'm not sure Adina even knows the name of the 
>mikva lady, because (obviously) there are several. That's not 
>exactly an environment that is likely to make a woman comfortable 
>with asking a mikva lady to help with her most intimate shailas.
>

Ah, that will help explain it.  The one I go to has twelve rooms and
often there is a queue in the waiting room when you arrive and when you
leave.  I therefore cannot believe there is less than 40 women on such
nights.


>One minor point - it is my understanding that these women are 
>NOT meant to pasken ksomim. I would question whether two years 
>is adequate to learn to pasken ksomim unless they spent night 
>after night (or actually day after day) looking at cloths. I have not 
>understood until now that they did that.
>
>One other point. The entire discussion between Micha and Chana 
>assumes the easy availability of a posek. This is often NOT the 
>case. Many Rabbonim do not and will not pasken ksomim. In 
>Yerushalayim, we found it was word of mouth to whom you could 
>take your cloths and when you could take them, and we feel 
>fortunate to have found a posek with whom we can consult 
>regularly and with whom we feel comfortable.
>
>In chutz la'aretz the situation is, in our experience, worse. Just to 
>expose the tip of the iceberg, I'd like to tell how we found our posek 
>in the States.

I think you are both right and wrong in this.  What happens in chutz
l'aretz, at least as far as I can see, is that there are Rabbaim
prepared to posken available, but that the standards you require fall
away.  That is, I don't know of anybody who had 18 years shimush on the
subject.  My sense is that the period is much closer to the two of the
yoetzet programme.  The story that my kalla teacher told me about her
husband though, was that the learning was artificially accelerated.  He
used to come home each night with "homework" - bags and bags of bedika
cloths to posken (he did his shimush in Eretz Yisroel where such was
possible).  And he would have to go back the next day having poskened
them all and have them checked.  

Now to be fair, it seems to me that such a programme could speed the
matter up.  After all, in a small shtetl, you would not see so many, so
you may need 18 years to build up expertise.  On the other hand, if the
Rav you are having shimush with has access to thousands of bedika cloths
(eg by requiring all the people he has trained in the past to pass on
old ones for the training of new poskim), and by keeping all that he has
received in the past, you should be able to telescope the time needed
for such training.

> He said that one shaila came from a woman in the 
>hinterlands who hadn't been with her husband for several months 
>because the local Rav kept being machmir before finally referring 
>them to our posek. One look at the cloth and he knew that the 
>problem had nothing to do with dam nida.

That is more like my experience. That is, if there is only a local Rav,
he will posken to the best of his ability (probably being machmir if he
is not sure), but he will posken.  And most of them have less
qualification in the area than the yoetzet have (and would not be
prepared to put in the time that the yoetzet have on this subject, given
how small a part of their overall responsibilities it is - especially
given how few shialas they get).

It may well be that the yoetzet are not going to posken kesomim.  But
besides having access to people who really do know how to, the reality
is that they will often have more training than most people who *are*
poskening these shialas.  And as they continue their work, they will
build up such expertise.  So that, today, when such a shiala comes in,
they may have no idea and run straight to the Rav.  After five years of
passing these shialas on, and then receiving the answer and transmitting
it to the questioner, they may have a pretty good idea what the answer
is going to be, and after 18, of course, they will effectively have the
same shimush as your posek.

The more difficult question raised by your requirement for an 18 year
shimush period is, if that is indeed the case, what is a woman (and her
husband) to do? Always be machmir and not ask anybody?  Ask who is
available even if you know that they do not have the level of
qualification that required? - of course, to make this judgement a woman
would have to know that most Rabbaim are not qualified - and they
emphatically don't teach you that in kalla class. The opposite, they
keep stressing "go to a Rav" - with the implication that any Rav will
do.  I suspect that this is deliberate, if you tell a woman that most
Rabbaim are not qualified to posken TM shialas, you are going to even
further decrease the number of shialas being asked.  So I think, quite
logically, the view is taken that any Rav is likely to know more than
the woman herself, and to be less machmir, and, as you do in all such
circumstances, if you don't have somebody really knowledgeable, you go
to the most knowledgeable that you have.

For example, I have heard some howlers in the area of shabbas and
kashrus which have been apparently promulgated by the local Rav.  Do you
then tell people not to trust their local Rav, because some don't know
what they are talking about? That is certainly one response, but I think
the more common one is to tell people to go to somebody more
knowledgeable than they are (all anyone is able to judge really), and it
is on the head of the person asked if they don't know their own
limitations (I believe RYGB brought a Rashi to support this view not
that long ago).  That, of course, is part of the necessity for yiras
shamayim, which should ensure honesty as to when the person asked is out
of their depth and when they are not.

>-- Carl
>

Kind Regards

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

Even befor RAA's response below, I believe, in conversation with R' Herschel
Maryles, that I hit upon a way to crystalize one of my hesitations that I
hitherto was incapable of articulating (hesitation, not objection). R' Carl
Sherer's post of this morning re Poskim enhanced my hesitation. To whit:

There is, no where that I know, a course that certifies one as a "Posek".
The conventional Heter Horo'o, as we well know, certifies nothing.
Conversely, one may be uncertified and still pasken reasonably well (i.e.,
the Chofetz Chaim). There are many Rabbis, even Rabbonim, here in Chicago,
yet few that pasken Nidda. None were certified as "Poskim". By dint of
erudition and reputation, they became the Poskim of the city (no shingles).
The concept of certifying "Yo'atzot" - "Poskot" - by another name - is not
the commonly accepted mahalach.

Chalk that up to my list :-).

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org



----- Original Message -----
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis


> Dear Akiva,
>
> Here's how my original read:
>
> "It all began two years ago, when Emunah Henkin, director of the
> Jerusalem-based Nishmat Center for Women's Studies, initiated a
> program to
> train Orthodox women as halachic consultants. Despite the breathless
> praises
> sung by the uninformed media, Henkin's idea was neither new nor
> original.
> There are at least two similar programs for training female halachic
> consultants in Yerushalayim alone, although unlike the Nishmat course,
> both
> are endorsed and closely supervised by genuine, recognized talmidei
> chachamim. One of the courses even carries the endorsement of Rav
> Yosef
> Shalom Eliyashiv, but it is run in modest silence, far away from the
> public
> limelight. (In fact, the people involved declined to be interviewed
> for this
> article.)
>
> "More importantly, however, unlike Nishmat, neither of these two
> kosher
> programs has ever made the outrageous claim that their graduates are,
> "the
> new poseks of Orthodox women." And consequently, unlike the Nishmat
> graduates, members of these two programs are well received in *all*
> Orthodox
> circles, not just among those who align themselves with the
> ultra-modern
> views of Norman Lamm."
>
>
> =============
>
> One course he mentioned to me is run by Tehilla Abramov, the author of
> "Secret of Jewish Femininity".
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i
>
> iQA/AwUBOBM6/FfniH1rWNqDEQLncwCgpqcOPp00b5aQKVKPYUAUtb2aEG4An3Tp
> VDyxobf6lFMj/agpcaGdTIYl
> =+KBW
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>

Catching up on this stuff after my computer was down most of last week, I 
think the schisms within Orthodoxy (at least American orthodoxy) are very 
understandable in sociological terms -- unlike what was the case in the 
1930's-1960's, your average frum Jew born in a large community today lives 
around folks of basically the same derech, goes to yeshiva with folks of 
basically the same derech, goes to shul (at least shabbos/yomtov) with folks 
of basically the same derech, learns as an adult with folks of basically the 
same derech, and gains at most a superficial understanding of folks with a 
different derech, often filled with stereotypes that apply in at most few 
cases (i.e., all MO's drink cholov stam and shave during the nine days, all 
chabadnicks believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is just concealing himself 
and waiting to tell the Ribbono Shel Olom when he is going to come back, 
don't go to a Satmar shul because they won't count you for a minyan; some 
folks [even within Chabad] won't drink wine looked at by or daven in a 
minyan with a yechidic, etc.).  It is understandable in sociological terms 
how this becomes the case but on the other hand it doesn't do anyone any 
good for ahavas Isroel to focus on this stuff at length either.

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C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:

> 1. The gemara in Shabbos 155 says Hashem told Avraham to abandon his belief
> in astrology because ain mazal l'Yisrael and he would have a son even if its
> not in the stars.  When citing this Chazal Rashi (ch 15) adds that Hashem
> therefore changed Avraham's name - Avram could not have a son, Avraham could.
>  L'chorah this overturns the gemara's whole point - acc. to Rashi yesh mazal,
> except for the name change, no?
>

Look at the Derashos HaRan #8 (page 138- in the Feldman edition) who deals
directly with this. Everybody agrees that Mazel controls. The question is whether
it is possible to directly overcome the impact of Mazel by mitzvos or whether the
Mazel can be overcome only indirectly. Look also at Tosfos (Niddah 16b) where he
deals with the issue of whether moral qualities are innate.

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 6:13 PM
Subject: Yated Bilti Neeman


> Agreed.  I have found out from personal experience.  Valid quotes are
repeated
> out-of-context to distort completely their original intent...
>
> Rich Wolpoe
>
A couple of years ago I wrote a short letter about victim compex to a
certain publication here in Israel. In parantheses I'd written "this does
not mean to invalidate millenia of persecution" . Imagine my shock when my
letter was printed with  "this invalidates millenia of persecution".  I e
mailed the editor directly but received neither apology or retraction.
Point here-  yes, we're all subjective to some degree- we all have an
agenda, partly subconscious and partly conscious.  There are those who can
only see data which seems to fit their beliefs and there are those who
consciously distort the data to fit their beliefs-  and a whole spectrum
within and beyond these two levels of bias.
We have to hear the story from all sides before we even begin to judge.  Up
to this point I have followed this "yoetzet" debate silently.  Now I have a
few points to make.

*Are all those women too squeamish to send their bedikas to a Rav ALSO too
squeamish to go to a male gynocologist, or even have a lab doc look at her
pap smear?
Rav Brandsdorfer, Rav of Toldos Aharon, encourages the women of his
community to go to a female gynocologist.  Most if not all of these women
have no problem sending the Rav their shailos- we're talking about women in
black tichels who only speak to men in cases of real necessity, and they
have no social contact with the Rav.
I don't deny there are many women who feel a profound sensitivity about
sending in their shailas, and I can understand their wish to relate to a
female yoetzet.  In these shailas, however, the questions can be relayed
through the Rebbetzin or through the husband. The Rav is in "halacha mode" -
the questions are technical and leshem shama'im- so there is absolutely no
need for shame.  It is a simpler matter to come to this kind of arrangement
or even to educate women not to feel embarassed than to establish a new
system of poskot-  (Rebbetzin Henkin's obvious goal-  I don't mean this
disparagingly or sarcastically- I have great respect for Chana Henkin as an
educator. She taught me many years ago.)

I have no quarrel with women learning halacha or ANY other branch of Jewish
learning.  I have no quarrel with women being spiritual leaders and
counsellors for other women,  educating women in taharas hamishpacha or
advising in sha'alas of anything from basar vechalav to stains, as long as
they know when to turn to someone more expert in the field.  At the risk of
sounding pompous and dogmatic- any learning should not be done at the
expense of family, husband and house.  If these women- or any women- find
themselves constantly hiring babysitters and housecleaners,  I think a
cheshbon hanefesh is in order.  Women who are grandmothers or who cannot
have children could be very good yoetzot in many areas.

Mrs. Gila Atwood.




> ______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>
> Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:
>
>
> > Like many, I had thought that censorship and bias were a tool of the
> > RW, abhorred by the LW. Now, I knew that this was untrue.
>
>
>
>
>
> It's on both sides, in both the religious and secular worlds. It's an
> unfortunate fact of human nature (which we as yirei Shamaim should be
> working to overcome) that 'objectivity' is centered right about where
> subjectivity should be. Unless there is a very deliberate effort made
> to avoid biased writing, any article will obviously present the views
> of it's author, despite the protestations of objectivity. It actually
> bothers me to the point that I can't read newspapers anymore, whoever
> the publisher might be, Left, Right, religious, secular, whatever. It
> seems that everyone has an agenda they need to push, and push they do.
>
>
> ---sam
>
>
>

But the reason why the "right wing" is confident and "artscrollization" is 
able to take place is it is geographically limited to particular 
neighborhoods, particular yeshivos, particular Rosh Yeshivos and their 
students in a handful or two of cities worldwide.  Just as it is far easier 
for a Lubavitcher to convince oneself of the meshichist position if they 
leave in Crown Heights and Kfar Chabad, it is easier for a graduate of 
certain yeshivos who isn't going to become a Rov of a Young Israel in 
nowheresville America  to assume the correctness of the yated view of the 
world than a graduate of a yeshiva who spends a few years or perhaps a 
lifetime as Rov of a Young Israel in a town where a daily minyan might take 
phone calls to achieve.


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> Why would you think you are yotzei?  Firstly there are achronim who hold dina 
> d'malchusa is d'oraysa, rendering the whole question moot; seceondly, even if 
> you hold it is derabbanan b'pashtus it can be mafkia ba'alus, e.g. King 
> Acahav could forcibly negate ownership of the kerem if not for th 
> etechnicalities discussed in Tos. Sanhedrin 20.
> 

I was not referring to where according to Dina D'malchusa it is genayve
but rather where the object is in one's legal possession and there is a
contract for sale and a kinyen to put it in the reshus of the buyer
mide'oyrayse but for whatever reason according to dine de'malchise the
property is not yet vested in the holder.

To rephrase my question is dine demalchise just dos and don'ts or are
the technical khaloysn also part of the hiskhayevus? To use an analogy,
albeit an imperfect one, a marriage according to dine demalkhuse does
not require a get.

> The Ritva's distinction between dina d'malchusa and dina d'malka would > allow for disobeying unjust laws.

But how about actions to bring about a change in the law or a makho'e
such as witholding taxes or chaining oneself to a railing and all the
other forms that modern protests take?

Dovid Herskovic

--- "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
wrote:
> 
> *Are all those women too squeamish to send their
> bedikas to a Rav ALSO too
> squeamish to go to a male gynocologist, 

This comparison is too simplistic.  Perhaps some women
are squeemish but go anyway.

> Rav Brandsdorfer, Rav of Toldos Aharon, encourages
> the women of his
> community to go to a female gynocologist. 

I think this is probably a good idea.

>In these shailas, however, the
> questions can be relayed
> through the Rebbetzin or through the husband. The
> Rav is in "halacha mode" -
> the questions are technical and leshem shama'im- so
> there is absolutely no
> need for shame. 

That does not help the person who by her very nature
is embarrassed to talk about these things to anyone
even if they are LeShem Shomayim.  Such a person may
even be embarrassed to go to a Yoetzet but will sooner
go to her than a male posek. Why not make it
available?  Why is it better to go through a second
hand party i.e. a rebbitzen (wife of the posek)?

> It is a simpler matter to come to
> this kind of arrangement
> or even to educate women not to feel embarassed than
> to establish a new
> system of poskot-  (Rebbetzin Henkin's obvious goal-

A. You can't educate away embarrassment.

B. "Simpler" isn't always better.

C. If you define these Yoatzot as poskot so be it. To
paraphrase Shaekspeare, "A rose by any other name is
still a rose"  Just remember the program does not
define them that way hence the name "Yoatzot".

D. How do you know what Chana Henkin's goal is?

E. As R. Aaron told me yesterday, all women should be
studying in this program.


>  I don't mean this
> disparagingly or sarcastically- I have great respect
> for Chana Henkin as an
> educator. She taught me many years ago.)

You could have fooled me.

> At the risk of
> sounding pompous and dogmatic- any learning should
> not be done at the
> expense of family, husband and house. 

I don't think you sound pompous or dogmatic and I hope
we can all agree on your final point.

HM


=====

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--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:

> "More importantly, however, unlike Nishmat, neither
> of these two
> kosher
> programs has ever made the outrageous claim that
> their graduates are,
> “the
> new poseks of Orthodox women.” And consequently,
> unlike the Nishmat
> graduates, members of these two programs are well
> received in *all*
> Orthodox
> circles, not just among those who align themselves
> with the
> ultra-modern
> views of Norman Lamm."

This does not give any details. All it does is to
"slam" Dr. Lamm. and all who Align themselves with
him.

This attitude makes me so angry.  Rather than
recognizing a positive development in the MO camp
which would go a long way towards a raproachmont of
the Right and the Left. That doesn't mean that the
Right couldn't have legitimate disagreement with the
program.  But the disagreement should be respectful
and be spelled out in detail. Instead what we have is
a lot of "holier than thous" from the Right.

It would be helpful if there would be a comparison of
the Nishmat program to the Charedi Programs in all
their details and what the specific objections RW has
of the Nishmat program.  



HM



=====

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--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

> There is, no where that I know, a course that
> certifies one as a "Posek".
> The conventional Heter Horo'o, as we well know,
> certifies nothing.
> Conversely, one may be uncertified and still pasken
> reasonably well (i.e.,
> the Chofetz Chaim). There are many Rabbis, even
> Rabbonim, here in Chicago,
> yet few that pasken Nidda. None were certified as
> "Poskim". By dint of
> erudition and reputation, they became the Poskim of
> the city (no shingles).
> The concept of certifying "Yo'atzot" - "Poskot" - by
> another name - is not
> the commonly accepted mahalach.

I agree with you about how poskim are made.

I don't think Yoatzot are poskim any more tham most
musmachim are.

However, As I said earlier to you today, If a
particularly bright woman would put herself through
the years of rigorous training by learning shas and
poskim for many many years, and would prove herself on
par in "Learning" and psak halacha with her male
counter parts ...what's the problem?

You would have here a woman posek.

HM



=====

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----- Original Message -----
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis


> This does not give any details. All it does is to
> "slam" Dr. Lamm. and all who Align themselves with
> him.
>

I am sure we all are curious why R' Lamm has not instituted this program yet
at SCW.

> It would be helpful if there would be a comparison of
> the Nishmat program to the Charedi Programs in all
> their details and what the specific objections RW has
> of the Nishmat program.
>

I agree. We need to know of what the curriculum of both programs consists.
Especially in light of the conflicting statements as to whether the Nishmat
alumnae will pasken maros, etc.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

********************


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