Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 065

Tuesday, October 26 1999

• Yatedish journalism
• Quoting Halacha vs. Rendering P'sak
• Re: teachers' salaries
• CHASAM SOFER
• RE: Yoatzot article
• Re: to ask a shaila or to take advice?
• Re: What is a Rabbi
• yated
• Re: Quoting Halacha vs. Rendering P'sak
• Re: Yoatzot
• Re: Chinuch Tuition
• RE: Yatedish journalism
• RE: yated
• Chinuch Tuition
• Shei'lo Escalation
• Re: Quoting Halacha vs. Rendering P'sak
• Re: Shei'lo Escalation
• Re: Quoting Halacha vs. Rendering P'sak
• Re: Shei'lo Escalation

I think the the hashkafa that allows the artscrollization of
history---------- revision-deletion of facts for moral purposes  should lead
directly  to being fast and loose  with the facts to any event that won't
fit the chareidi cultural paradigms.   I always recall a  JO tzadik obit
which pointed out the particular rov never responded to criticism from the
right-----becuz it probably had an element of emes.   the corralary---is it
a mitzva to attack to the left, which is  ipso facto sheker?

Recently, several people have pointed to a difference between two
different situations which can result when a person is asked a halachic
question. In one, the answerer simply quotes a halacha as it is found in
the accepted texts. In the second, the answerer has to actually render
some sort of decision, and this makes the nature of the question
substantially different than that of the first case.

I am finding it difficult to tell the difference between those cases, and
I'm beginning to wonder if there really is a difference. Let me explain.

First, let's take a couple of examples which clearly fit into the first
category: A person made a specific error in davening; finding and quoting
the relevant halacha does not involve rendering a personal decision.
Similarly, most simple foods very clearly fit into the rules for one
b'racha or another, and a person who is unsure simply needs a little help
in finding the halacha.

Other questions involve a judgement call: Does this kesem have a tamay
color or a tahor color? Which ingredient in this recipe is considered
most important, for establishing its bracha? Given all the relevant
factors of this tourist's personal life, what should he do on Yom Tov
Sheni? Does government supervision in this locality satisfy the halacha's
requirement that we be sure the milk comes from kosher animals? ... and
many similar questions.

At first glance, the difference between these two classes is simple: In
the first, the case is so clear-cut that no originality is needed, no
experience is needed. All we need is the ability to read and understand
the books. This is called "Quoting A Halacha." In the second group,
however, we realize that the books only cover standard examples, and an
experienced person has to decide whether the the case at hand is more
similar to A or to B. This is called "Rendering A P'sak."

But is this really true? If one tries to simply Quote A Halacha, but that
halacha is disputed, then isn't he actually paskening, by choosing from
among the poskim?

Suppose someone asks a question, and I read from the Mishna Brurah,
saying, "Acharon A says xxxxx, but Acharon B says yyyyy, and the solution
is zzzzz." (Needless to say, many (maybe even most) of the MB's comments
fit that pattern.) Some would say that this is an acceptable example of
where I simply quoted the halacha as paskened by the Mishna Brurah, and
it was not me who paskened for this person. But others would say that it
constitutes me paskening like the Mishna Brurah, since I ignored what the
other poskim hold.

Is there a real difference between (1) rendering a p'sak on whether this
kesem is closer to brown or green or yellow, and (2) rendering a p'sak on
whether the halacha is closer to the Mishna Brurah or Aruch Hashulchan or
Chayei Adam?

Akiva Miller

___________________________________________________________________
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In a message dated 10/21/99 2:29:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< t saddens me that you take an issue that should be of global interest, one
 we can, in principle, agree upon, and artificially introduce the RW/MO
 divide.
 
 I feel I must nevertheless respond.
 
 It would seem to me taht if anything, from your line of reasoning, the crime
 of lower salaries for women is more heinous in the MO world, that you
 pereceive to value women's learning, than in the RW world. Lesser gap
 (perhaps - I am skeptical), but greater misjustice.
 
 L'gufo shel inyan, I do not accept that women's learning is less valued in
 RW schools than MO ones. Indeed, the RW girls generally, receive, in the
 better schools, an outstanding Limudei Kodesh education - superior in many
 respects to that of the boys. A diffrent curriculum does not mean less
 value. >>

The more immediate problem need not be tied to a question of value placed on 
who is learning what. Rather, it is a question of exploitation of a 
vulnerable population. 
And it occurs on both sides of the ideological fence, although the victims 
are more often from the RW world.
Many times, schools are able to hire young women, often Kollel wives, who may 
be in fact knowledgable and fine teachers, and manage to do this without 
paying them equitably. This has happened in the Yeshiva where my wife taught, 
in the Y.H.S. she attended, which would both be characterized as slightly to 
the Right, and it has happened in Day Schools all over the N.Y. area, 
although less so in some suburban schools that draw on a different talent 
pool, based sometimes on geographical convenience.
Oftentimes, the women teachers that do better in salary are those who need it 
less, but have the self confidence and independence to stand up to principals 
who are often conditioned to treat their female staff like second class 
citizens. This is not a left - right issue. But Right wing women are more 
vulnerable, especially if they are Kollel wives who are more dependent on the 
salary, however small. Also, many are exploited because they are not used to 
asserting themselves in the face of Male authority figures. Kind of a K'vodah 
Bas Melech P'nimah gone haywire.
At the same time, the schools dilemma of overstretched communal funds is a 
real one.
What is the solution?
Well, in some cases, schools have to look at their administration, and see if 
in fact they may be top-heavy. Unfortunately, there is a lot of back 
scratching in the Education establishment, and full time Rabbi's are hired to 
do jobs that can be handled by a good Secretary. This too is an issue that 
cuts across ideological camps.
Sensible fundraising is another issue. I was in a school that had a Holocaust 
Garden. The sculpture was beautiful and evocative, but I am hard pressed to 
believe that the donor could not have been persuaded to give money to 
something that more directly benefits the students. In some schools I have 
seen, the decor of the principals office would have been embarrassing in its 
opulence to the principal of the P.S which I attended.   
The community also needs to allocate money more responsibly. Why are there so 
many organizations devoted to helping Russian immigrants? There is a great 
deal of duplication of services. In communities where the local ambulance 
corps is good, should money be given to start Hatzoloh branches? How can I 
give to JEP, NCSY, Bnei Akiva, Aish Hatorah, Ohr Samayach, Kesher, Lubavitch, 
and a myriad of other organizations whose goals and methods are similar? 
Do we need both Amit and Emunah?
I think you get my drift. I am not saying that my objection is equally 
applicable to all the organizations mentioned, but the question needs to be 
asked.
The other big question is about Kollels. How long can the community support 
the proliferation of Kollels? We would be better off if the Kollel system 
would be limited to the real Y'chidim, and post Yeshiva education geared 
towards producing first rate M'chanchim. Way too many fathers in law are 
supporting young people, who for the most sincere of reasons, are expending 
money that could be used more productively elsewhere. 
I am not saying that Kollel is a uniformly bad idea, but I do think that the 
Orthodox community is unrealistic about the economic consequences of the 
system.

Jordan    

Shlomo A Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

David Glasner <DGLASNER@FTC.GOV> wrote:
>>>>At any rate, I would very much appreciate your sending me any
references to the CS's use of the phrase in his t'shuvos.<<<<

Please let me have your fax no and I''ll send
you (and anyone else interested)
a photocopy of the entire chapter
"Chodosh Ossur min Hatorah"

Shlomo B Abeles

>
> This is not necessarily a halachic problem. The cycle can be
> shortened using herbs; there are two women in Yerushalayim that I
> know of who do this, but I know of them only because one of them
> is a close friend of Adina's (the other is the herbalist who gives
> women notes about bleeding from a wound rather than from the
> cervix). I am willing to bet that many of the poskim - even in
> Yerushalayim - do not know where women can go to get these
> types of herbs. If that is the type of advice the yoatzot are giving,
> then that is definitely not psak and is a service.

I know for a fact that R' Brandsdorfer, R' Halberstam, R' Fisher, R'
Yeruvich and other Poskim from the Eida *do*, in fact, rely on herbal
remedies.


> Again these could be health-related questions as much as halachic
> related questions. And there's nothing wrong with that. How many
> poskim have an understanding of women's biology that goes
> beyond what is basically needed to understand Hilchos Nidda?

I'd suspect that an *experienced* posek would pick up an extensive
knowledge, since dealing with problems often require the Rav to discuss
matters with doctors.

I know that both R' Brandsdorfer and R' Halberstam have sufficient knowledge
in this area that leading doctors here in Jerusalem will consider their
*medical* opinion as worthy of serious consideration.

Akiva

In message , Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> writes
>They're willing to go to a male doctor for an Internal, but they won't show
>a white piece of cloth to a male Rabbi?

A lot of women aren't.  That is why the National Health Service here in
England offers the alternative of a female nurse, if there are no female
doctors in the surgery.  This is not a problem limited to taharas
hamishpacha (or even to the Jewish world) - there is a similar problem
of women avoiding such tests, which is why the doctors surgeries send to
reminders (and further chasing reminders) over and over again in about
six languages.

Kind Regards

Chana
-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

In message , Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> writes
>> > that -- I know Dayanim in Meah Shearim who still, after decades of
>> > poskening, still spend several hours a day studying the
>> halachot of THM.
>>
>> I think the original poster meant to ask how many poskim spend
>> 2000 hours studying THM BEFORE they start to pasken shailas.
>>
>
>That's a valid point -- but it also strengthens the position that says the
>Yoatzos are going to poskin at a level deeper than "yes, it's red, you have
>to show it to the Rov".
>
I thought that today *nobody* is regarded as being baki in the different
shades of red as enumerated in the Mishna, so *any* shade of red is
tamei (my hazy recollection is that this is a din gemorra) so long as it
comes from the makor, and eg not some makah. 

The problem is more likely to be when the answer is "yes it is brown" -
the big issue there being that, at least as far as I can work out, there
is a machlokas about that, and it may depend on which community the
woman comes from etc. Even if the yoetzet takes it to a Rav (lets say
who holds this kind of brown is mutar), it may be that the Rabbaim of
the women's community might hold it was ossur. But then, given the
scarcity of people poskening, that is not different to finding a posek
outside of one's community.  Clearly the yoetzet will be linked to
Rabbaim who take a particular position on such machlokusim.

>Akiva
>

Kind Regards

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

> 
> Dear Rabbi Dratch,
>     Following is a letter I sent to Yated Ne'eman. I would appreciate if you 
> would post it on the Aishdas Avodah site ... 
>     Thank you.
>                                                YHH
>        
I am curious if Yated Neeman printed the letter.
ET

This post sounds remarkably similar to a discussion Akiva and I 
had on list before the Chagim :-) 

On 26 Oct 99, at 0:51, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> But is this really true? If one tries to simply Quote A Halacha, but that
> halacha is disputed, then isn't he actually paskening, by choosing from
> among the poskim?
> 
> Suppose someone asks a question, and I read from the Mishna Brurah,
> saying, "Acharon A says xxxxx, but Acharon B says yyyyy, and the solution
> is zzzzz." (Needless to say, many (maybe even most) of the MB's comments
> fit that pattern.) Some would say that this is an acceptable example of
> where I simply quoted the halacha as paskened by the Mishna Brurah, and
> it was not me who paskened for this person. But others would say that it
> constitutes me paskening like the Mishna Brurah, since I ignored what the
> other poskim hold.

I think that in the specific case of the Mishna Brura, especially if 
one includes the Biur Halacha, assuming that the facts match 
exactly (e.g. I forgot Yaaleh v'Yavo in bentching - do I go back or 
not?) one is quoting and not paskening. This because, as has been 
noted many times on the list, the Biur Halacha constituted a 
consensus among the poskim of the time, and not just the Chafetz 
Chaim's own opinion. 

OTOH, my personal preference is that where there are chilukei 
deos, I like to ask - if only so I can do things with a clear 
conscience. For example, last week I was in the States. Last 
Sunday was 7 Cheshvan, the day on which we here in Eretz 
Yisroel start to say Tal uMatar, and I landed in Boston the previous 
Wednesday night. What was I to do in the shtiller Shmoneh Esrei? 
I looked it up in Yom Tov Sheini k'Hilchoso, and he brought two 
shitos: R. Moshe held that I should say Tal uMatar in Barech 
Aleinu, while R. Shlomo Zalman, and l'hibodel bein chayim l'chayim 
R. Elyoshiv, held that I should say it in Shma Koleinu. I called my 
posek (who is an American oleh like myself), and he said I should 
follow RSZ's and RYSE's shita.  Yes, I could have been somech on 
either view, but since I had never confronted the shaila before, I felt 
better asking someone. Is that psak? Well, it didn't require 
choosing a case in the Gemara and poskim to analogize my 
question to, but it did require choosing which of two sets of earlier 
poskim I should follow. I'd say it's in a gray area. But I think it fits in 
with your number 2 below, and I think that's very different than your 
number 1 below.

> Is there a real difference between (1) rendering a p'sak on whether this
> kesem is closer to brown or green or yellow, and (2) rendering a p'sak on
> whether the halacha is closer to the Mishna Brurah or Aruch Hashulchan or
> Chayei Adam?

I think there is. In number 1, the posek is being asked to determine 
to which case brought in the Gemara and the Poskim the Kesem 
should be compared. Therefore, I think it's closer to what might be 
(as I pointed out yesterday and no one has taken me up on yet :-) 
called "din." It requires making a determination as to the 
interpretation of the facts and applying the law based on that 
interpretation. Is this kesem green or yellow or brown? Once we 
answer that question, we all know what the halacha will be 
(maybe), or we will know how the previous poskim applied the 
halacha to those facts (in which case it will BECOME like my Tal 
uMatar case). But it is the contemporary posek who has to 
determine how to interpret the facts, to which case in the Gemara 
and Poskim to compare them. 

But in 2, the facts are undisputed. In my example, I am an "Israeli" 
(for halachic purposes anyway :-) and I am in chutz laaretz on the 
7th of Cheshvan when Israelis start to say Tal uMatar. The question 
is which of three (in your example) previous poskim's application of 
the law to those facts do I accept. And the truth is that you could 
really rely on any of the poskim (assuming they were all of equal 
weight, that there was no majority, and that you were not doing the 
equivalent of accepting the kulos of one posek and the chumros of 
another in a contradictory fashion). So that if I had not had the 
chance to ask my posek the question before I left, and I had relied 
on R. Moshe and said Tal uMatar in Barech Aleinu, I don't think 
anyone would argue that I was not yotzei. (The more interesting 
question, which I did not think of until after I left, and to which I 
have not gotten an answer yet, is what happens if while in the US I 
forget Tal uMatar and either (a) finish Shomea Tfilla or (b) finish 
Shmoneh Esrei).

Another example of where I would consider something psak rather 
than just quoting halacha is where the facts are clear, but the 
halacha sforim do not specifically deal with the case. For example, 
several years ago I had occasion to ask a Rav whether the heter of 
kdeira chaysa (putting frozen meat into the cholent pot 
immediately before Shabbos such that it will not even cook to 
maachal ben drusoee before Shabbos - considered mutar because 
there is little chance that you can do anything that will make it 
edible for your Friday night supper) applies to chicken. The posek 
told me, "go look it up and come back and tell me the answer 
yourself!" I spent the entire Shabbos poring over sforim, and the 
only thing I came upon that was close was the correspondence 
between R. Moshe and R. Shlomo Zalman (and the latter's 
talmidim) about eating the bones from the cholent on Shabbos (in 
the first chelek of Igros Moshe OH - I don't have the exact cite in 
front of me). When I came back and told the posek this, he looked 
into it himself and eventually paskened that it was assur to eat that 
cholent on that Shabbos (because chicken can cook quickly 
enough that there is a chashash that one will come to stir the pot 
so that it will cook more quickly and be edible on Friday night). 
Again, this is an application of the facts to the accepted halacha, 
and IMHO goes beyond mere quoting of halacha, i.e. this is 
rendering psak.

I realize that I may be splitting hairs on this, but I'm a lawyer and 
that's what I get paid to do :-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I'm going through the letters that were published while I was away, 
and would like to come back to this....

On 15 Oct 99, at 16:32, MSDratch@aol.com wrote:

> There, Rabbanit Henkin writes:  
> 
> R. Chaim Yosef David Azulai, the eminent 18th century Jerusalem-born sephardi 
> sage, rules in his Birkei Yosef that although a woman cannot judge, she can 
> pasken, issue a halakhic ruling, and this is the meaning of "hayta melamedet 
> lahem hadinim" in Tosafot. He writes that the fact that a woman can issue a 
> halakhic ruling is proven by Sefer haChinukh who, in Mitzva 83, agrees that a 
> woman cannot judge, and on the other hand, in Mitzva 152, writes that a woman 
> may not issue a halakhic ruling while drunk. This opinion of the Birkei Yosef 
> is cited by the Pitchei Teshuva. 
> 
> 
> This thread has not been pursued in this discussion.  Apparently the ability 
> to render p'sak is not a function of one's obligation in Talmud Torah or in 
> his/her ability to function as a dayyan.

Render psak or be moreh (or morah) horaa? I think the concept of 
moreh horaa may well fit in with what we have been discussing as 
reciting the halacha as written, while rendering psak is something 
more. Again, not having a Chinuch in the office....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> FWIW, when I was growing up in Hartford, parents who
> could not afford {full} 
> tuition did volunteer work at our Day School.  They
> didn't teach, rathey they  
> worked either in the kitchen or helped stuff
> envelopes in the office, etc. It 
> was sort of a barter arrangement.
> 
This still goes on today and is still needed and
appreciated. But times and finacial requirements of
these educational institutions have changed.  Stuffing
envelopes does not amount to much in the barter
arrangement when you you have 2.5 million dollar
annual budgets.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

> I think the the hashkafa that allows the artscrollization of
> history---------- revision-deletion of facts for moral
> purposes  should lead
> directly  to being fast and loose  with the facts to any
> event that won't
> fit the chareidi cultural paradigms.

Why automatically bash the chareidim (besides the fact that it's
fashionable)?

*All* movements do it, across the spectrum -- Here in Israel the left is
equally, if not more so, "fast and loose  with the facts".

Just look at the current history curriculum with the "revised" history of
the founding of the state.

For that matter, look at the history of the US (WW2 for example) as taught
50 years ago, 30 years ago, 10 years ago, and today... History has to be PC
too.

Akiva

> >
> I am curious if Yated Neeman printed the letter.

I forwarded Rabbi Henkin's letter to the author of the Yated article -- He
forwarded it to the Yated editor and encouraged him to publish it.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Neve Yaakov
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

This still goes on today and is still needed and 
appreciated. But times and finacial requirements of 
these educational institutions have changed.  Stuffing 
envelopes does not amount to much in the barter 
arrangement when you you have 2.5 million dollar annual 
budgets.

HM

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Even when the barter would be highly unequtiable, it was consider a valuable 
"lesson" to have families "earn" their tuition rather than getting it gratis.

BTW, If you look at other ancient traditions of master/disciple relationships, 
disciples who were trained gratis were expected to be "apprenticed" to their 
masters and became defacto valets.  Chinom disciples had no financial 
obligation, rather they had TOTAL commitment to "shimush" instead.

EG, Martial arts masters in the USA charge tuition, and when the student goes 
home, he is under no further obligation to his master.  However, in the old 
country, disciples did not pay tuition, rather they lived with and served their 
masters by sweeping the floor etc.  It was a total commitment to "shimush".

Carl:>> You can't very well tell a woman who is living in a rural area that the 
only Rav in town is not qualified to pasken Hilchos Nida, and therefore she 
should send all of her shailas to New York! She would never send any! 

-- Carl<<

There is little need for rural congregants to develop a relationship with a 
gadol, the rural Rav should have one already on their behalf.

FWIW, I routinely escalate any tricky shei'lo I get, if for no other reason than
to get a 2nd opinion.  

Rich Wolpoe

In a message dated 10/26/99 5:38:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
csherer@netvision.net.il writes:

> (as I pointed out yesterday and no one has taken me up on yet :-) 
>  called "din."

Lhalacha the Poskim discuss if a women can Pasken on Marohs, (as to the 
Possuk IMHO there is no Rayoh, as an aside if a women can become a Moroh 
Horo'oh ("Vatzumim") can she become a Zakein Mamrei?)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

> >> You can't very well tell a woman who is living in a rural area that the 
>  only Rav in town is not qualified to pasken Hilchos Nida, and therefore 
she 
>  should send all of her shailas to New York! She would never send any! 
>  

And why can't the Rov send it to another Rov?  The idea that a Rov would 
Pasken w/o knowledge in the field, is very scary, what about Gitin and 
Kiddushin?, why doesn't the search committee make it a prerequist that he 
have Shimush in TH, (if they would not be hired otherwise, it would become 
part of their training).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

On 26 Oct 99, at 9:05, Yzkd@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/26/99 5:38:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> csherer@netvision.net.il writes:
> 
> > (as I pointed out yesterday and no one has taken me up on yet :-) 
> >  called "din."
> 
> Lhalacha the Poskim discuss if a women can Pasken on Marohs, 

and....?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 26 Oct 99, at 8:57, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> Carl:>> You can't very well tell a woman who is living in a rural area that the 
> only Rav in town is not qualified to pasken Hilchos Nida, and therefore she 
> should send all of her shailas to New York! She would never send any! 
> 
> -- Carl<<
> 
> There is little need for rural congregants to develop a relationship with a 
> gadol, the rural Rav should have one already on their behalf.

No question that you are correct, and I would be surprised if there 
are many rural Rabbonim who do not have such relationships. My 
concern (as indicated by the story that I heard from my posek in 
the States about the woman who had not been with her husband 
for months) is that often the rural Rav (for whatever reason) does 
not involve the Gadol when he should. 

> FWIW, I routinely escalate any tricky shei'lo I get, if for no other reason than
> to get a 2nd opinion.  

Ah, but the gadlus is in recognizing that you have a tricky shaila in 
the first place!

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

********************


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