Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 081

Saturday, October 30 1999

• Tzni'us in Material Acquisutions
• Toward Tradition -- or Torah and politics
• Re: Orthodox Activists
• Re: Torah Or What?
• Re: RW writers being anonymous (V4#80)
• Re: Orthodox Activists
• Re: Ortho activist
• Re: What Else [Tzni'us in Material Acquisutions]
• Re: Brich Shmei -- Some Facts
• Re: Avodah V4 #76
• Re: kidra chaysa
• Re: ... the Torah its light
• Re: Extremes
• Re: Ortho activist
• Re: RW writers being anonymous (V4#80)
• Re: Ortho activist - Toward Tradition
• Re: Ortho activist
• The Rav andf R. Aaron
• Re: Avodah V4 #79
• RE:

--- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:
> In V4#75, Jordan (TROMBAEDU@aol.com) quotes the
> penetrating observation
> of Eli Clarke's earlier post that:
> 
> << But for all our advances in tzeni'ut in dress, I
> find that our standards
> of tzeni'ut have declined far more in other areas. 
> As the community as
> a whole has become more affluent economically,
> especially in the US,
> many of us have lost the sense of proportion and
> modesty that our
> grandparents had about material possessions. . .
> .The sportscars,
> fancy vacations, mansion-like homes -- all of these
> signify to me a
> lack of tzeni'ut that concerns more than hemlines. 
> And, as I say,
> I find these problems to affect the entire spectrum
> of
> American Orthodoxy. >>
> 
> To this, Jordan adds his own observation that
> "certain of these practices are
> now considered de rigeur," citing specifically the
> phenomenon of adding rooms
> for live-in help, and concluding:
> 
> << The assumptions Frum Jews make, and this
> certainly crosses
> ideological lines, about the minimum necessary
> requirements for comfortable
> living have gone totally off the scale. And I most
> definitely agree that this
> constitutes a different but just as insidious
> violation of Tznius.>>
> 
> To this I would add only that the phenomena in
> question involve more than
> just breaches of tzni'us. The materialistic values
> and acquisitiveness in
> question
> violate the isur of bal tashchis (Peleh Yo'etz,
> erech Mosaros and erech Sipuk),
> are inconsistent with what HKB"H requires of Jews
> living in galus (Kli Yakar,
> end
> of parshas Vayigash) and constitute a hesech hada'as
> in the anticipation of the
> g'ula (Shal"a, end of M'seches Suka).
> 
> Shabat Shalom,
> David 

I disagree.
 
One man's ceiling is another man's floor. There is
nothing wrong with enjoying one's wealth. Why
shouldn't I be able to have more if I "make" more. Do
I tell my neighbor who just bought a Lexus that his
new car is to oppulent?  Is he really violating
Tznius?  Or am I just envious and wish I had one too!
What right has anyone to judge what someone's
lifestyle requirements should be. We have to allow in
this world for differences in lifestyle ability. 
That's is why the level of Tzedakah differs when one
is giving money to a poor man vs. giving money to a
poor man who was once rich.  We are required to
restore the formerly rich man to his original status. 
The Torah is not a socialst manifesto.  

Obviously there have to ultimately be some limits as
to how one enjoys his wealth.  I suppose we can all
point to cases of conspicuos consumption. ( I recently
attended an Orthodox wedding that I assure everyone
cost in excess of a half million dollars - I am not
exaggerating.) But, who is going to draw the line. 
There was a time when indoor plumbing was considered a
luxury.  Do we need to bring outhouses back so we can
be more Tznius about material goods?

HM

=====

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I have not perused the literature of Toward Tradition, but I did read an
advertisment placed by that organization in the New York Times after the
1996 US congressional elections.  The ad mentioned that the Torah
prescribes rules that are more or less identical to the Republican
political platform.  The ad was somewhat controversial and elicited a
counter-ad signed by a wide range of Jewish figures (including at least
one Orthodox rabbi) taking issue with the position of the first ad.

I gave a derashah on this topic at the time and concluded that neither
ad was entirely faithful to Halakhah.  In other words, while the
conservative group was correct that the Torah would frown on certain
sacred cows of liberalism, it went further and claimed that Jewish
tradition mandates low taxes (!) and some other suspect claims.  The
reality is that Halakhah is extremely conscious of the need to help the
poor and mandates a serious degree of income redistribution to eliminate
inequality.  That having been said, it is of course true that, on issues
of permissiveness and moral relativisim, we share more with the
so-called religious conservatives than with the liberal-progressive
camp.

Kol tuv and Shabbat shalom,

Eli Clark

First, let me use this opportunity to tweak the chaver ba'avodah who objected
to my including a reference to political activism in the AishDas charter, yet
now appears to support greater political activity on the part of the Orthodox
community.

Second, my post about triage causing this neglect was a description of the
real, not the ideal.

Third, the (U) IPA is aimed at issues like the Israeli MIAs and the 13 Iranian
non-spies. Jewish causes, not global ones. Kudos for what they do, but we
should be clear on what's not being done as well. Meimad is the only Orthodox
group I know of that deals with these issues, but their ecology is Israel's
ecology -- their world is inherently a more Jewish one.

Fourth, Mark Dratch <MSDratch@aol.com> writes in v3n74:
:                 Fasting for aku"m and chazeirim during a plague only because 
: of the effect it may ultimately have on Jews.   Gezel Aku"m, Hafka'as 
: halva'ah, hashavas aveidah...

The Rambam gives what appears to be two reasons for these mitzvos: "vihalacha
bidrachav" and "darchei shalom". This is in two different locations, but
because I saw this vort on a Shabbos I didn't take down citations.

According to R Aharon Lichtenstein, the Rambam isn't being soseir himself,
rather the two are the same. (I mentioned this before.) That the reason for
"darchei shalom" is because "vihalacha bidrachav" -- shalom is one of His
dirachim. This makes these halachos based on part of the noble ideal, not just
necessary for survival.

OTOH, "mishum eivah" is still used all over the place.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Oct-99: Shishi, Vayera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 60b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
> Jon Baker writes:

> : A mitzvah is the smallest quantum of Torah performance, so it is 
> : compared to the smallest quantum of light production (by man; fireflies
> : are necessarily smaller).
 
>Since we're airing an old argument for the list's contemplation, my usual reply
>is to point out that "ohr" isn't "light production" and "ner" isn't a quantum
>of light. A ner isn't a quantum of "ohr", it's a quantum of cause for "ohr". My
>understanding makes the metaphor more exact.

Nor did I say that.  Read it again.

I said "ner is a quantum of light production" and "ohr is light".
You reply that "ner isn't a quantum of light" and "ohr isn't light
production."  Tell me how that refutes what I said?

cause for ohr == production of ohr.

To refine it further (as I pointed out WRT the R/u/f/u/s/ T/./ firefly),
it's a quantum of man-made light production, just as mitzvot can only
be done by humans.

       Jonathan Baker     |  Marches-wan, marches-two,
       jjbaker@panix.com  |  March the months all through and through

HM writes:
"But, it is also
gutless.  People of conviction should not be afraid of
publicly stating their positions.  Sharp verbal
attacks  can serve as a springboard for further debate"

A) Anonymity can help by removing personality from the debate
(admittedly, the context of Avodah helps a lot by itself)
B)There is a great difference between sharp verbal attacks and 
personal attacks, verbal or other. (IE mentioning a tznius problem 
and being attacked as a menuval)

G'S
Sender Baruch

----- Original Message -----
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 1999 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: Orthodox Activists


> First, let me use this opportunity to tweak the chaver ba'avodah who
objected
> to my including a reference to political activism in the AishDas charter,
yet
> now appears to support greater political activity on the part of the
Orthodox
> community.
>

First, having some inkling as to who that chaver is ;-), let me say that I
believe that chaver was more concerned at the time that precisely because
political activism is so foreign to the frum community (all stripes), the
chaver was concerned that Aishdas not be marginalized as "strange". Said
chaver did not c"v mean to imply that activism is in itself negative.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In a message dated 10/28/99 7:48:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< I just wanted to point out that R. Aaron Soloveichik
 was one of the earliest and most vocal anti Vietnam
 war protesters, and, in a very emotional way, always
 refering to the war as immoral. He spoke out early and
 he spoke out often much to the chagrin of the Orthodox
 and Traditional establishment at the begining of the
 war.  Rav Aaron was a nemisis to those who felt that
 we must support what are nation is doing. After all,
 who knows better (they used to ask): we mere
 citizens,peons who are not privy to vital national
 security secrets, or the President et al, who have all
 of U.S. intelligence at hand. But R. Aaron persisted
 and angered a lot of people in the proccess, which in
 the end helped contribute to his demise as RH of HTC. >>

Kind of ironic, since R'YBS seemed to support U.S involvement in Vietnam.

Jordan

In a message dated 10/29/99 7:35:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
david.nadoff@bfkpn.com writes:

<< 
 << The assumptions Frum Jews make, and this certainly crosses
 ideological lines, about the minimum necessary requirements for comfortable
 living have gone totally off the scale. And I most definitely agree that this
 constitutes a different but just as insidious violation of Tznius.>>
 
 To this I would add only that the phenomena in question involve more than
 just breaches of tzni'us. The materialistic values and acquisitiveness in
 question
 violate the isur of bal tashchis (Peleh Yo'etz, erech Mosaros and erech 
Sipuk),
 are inconsistent with what HKB"H requires of Jews living in galus (Kli Yakar,
 end
 of parshas Vayigash) and constitute a hesech hada'as in the anticipation of 
the
 g'ula (Shal"a, end of M'seches Suka).
  >>

It's funny you mention this. This specifically is an area where R' Eli's 
point about Tznius intersects with the thread on Frum activism, where he also 
made a series of cogent observations. 
I am very interested in Environmental concerns. On a Halacha level, there are 
certainly the issues you mentioned, re: Baal Tashchis etc. but that even 
extends to tznius as well.
If you live in Teaneck, as I do, or the  5 Towns, or really anywhere in the 
NY area, one can't help but be struck by the number of young (between 28-45) 
parents drive around in the biggest 4 wheel drive cars one can imagine. I 
understand that B"H our families are bigger than they used to be, but what is 
the necessity for a Ford Expedition, when a  Plymouth Caravan is sufficient. 
The only reason to buy these elaborate cars is conspicuous consumption. And 
these cars are murder on the environment. But when you start to discuss these 
issues with frum people, too often their eyes glaze over and you are marked 
down as some kind of tree hugging, left wing, anti wealth kook.

Jordan   

In a message dated 10/29/99 10:46:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

<< 
 The earliest reliable statement on Berikh Shemeih comes from Avraham
 Berliner, the great Orthodox German scholar who, among other things,
 produced the most reliable text of Perush Rashi al ha-Torah.  In his
 classic study on tefillah, he writes that Berikh Shemeih first appears
 in conjunction with petihat ha-aron in 1540, and that it began to spread
 in 1599, a consequence of the influence of "Seder ha-Yom".
  >>

I have used the Berliner for years. What is the name of his study on 
Tefillah? Also, do you know when he lived?

Jordan

"Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il> writes:
> I've been nudging the community about water conservation for years -
> with local rabbinic support-  but since water still comes out of the faucet
> I get the feeling that the issue is well below "no. 9" in people's minds.
> OK this is an avoda on a gashmi level but it's still Torah.

I am not sure I agree with the last sentence.  If you are concerned with
water availability for your personal convience and/or pleasure, then yes
this is gashmius.  But what if you are motivated by concern for HaShem's
creations who will suffer in the future if the water is unavailable?  Or
because guarding HaShem's creation is an Avodah.

I think the root of the problem is people being unable to see anything
beyond limud Torah as Avodah.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
<daniel@cfd.ame.arizona.edu>
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ

In a message dated 10/29/99 11:08:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
nwitty@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< I anticipate strong reactions from regular raiders.  I know raiders.  Some
 of my best friends are raiders.  As a stereotype they are stubborn (Bertrand
 Russell conjugates: I am adamant+ADs- you are stubborn+ADs- s/he is 
pigheaded+ACE-) and
 very strongly tied/addicted to raiding. >>

For the record, I was the one who brought up the Raid issue. I did it to 
enhance my understanding of  Kdeira Chaisa. 
However, while you mention it, I would like to point out that I am a raider. 
Both my wife and I enjoy the Cholent at night, as it has a different 
character than the one on Shabbos afternoon. We make sure there is enough for 
both meals. If your post was tongue in cheek, fine. If you were serious, I 
would like to say that you have perhaps read too much into the use of the 
word raid, and indeed, into the whole practice. 
Furthermore, I do not have to justify the halachik validity of my actions on 
this list.
However, feel free to come for Shabbos anytime you want, and I will do what I 
can to convert you to the dark side. (I make a great Cholent)

Jordan

In a message dated 10/29/99 11:07:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 Joel Rich <Joelirich@aol.com> quotes the bottom line of my signature file
 and asks:
 : << For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. >>
 
 : I don't know why I just noticed this, but where do you get "its" from in 
ki 
 : ner mitzvah vtora or?
 
 My own imagination. Which is why there are no quote marks around it or
 citation after it.
 
 Despite the fact that it says "viTorah or" and not "vitorah oraH" (with a 
final
 mapik hei), I do think this meaning is p'shat in the pasuk. The connection
 between candle and light is one of physical cause and spiritual affect.
  >>

I always say there is no such thing as coincidence.  This coming monday's daf 
explains why one has to tear kria if they are there when someone des by 
comparing it to being there when a sefer tora is burnt.  Rashi explains 
-dtora kruyah ner shneemar "ki ner mitzvah vtora or" vneshama nekret ner 
dchtiv "ner hashem nishmat adam" - which seems strange since the the 1st 
pasuk uses ner by mitzvah, not tora. Thus  there is a clear relationship 
implied in the pasuk (not so clear in the gemora in sota I quoted earlier)

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

I wrote <<< And then the Rama -- living in and paskening for a culture
full of people who fancy themselves to be more learned than they really
are, looking for whatever kuntzim and loopholes they can find -- says
right and left, no, we don't allow this exception, no, we don't allow
that exception. >>>

Someone commented that this comment was <<< disrespectful to generations
upon generations of Talmidei Chachamim Gedolim va'Atzumim... >>>

I see how what I wrote is way out of line. R' Harry Maryles spoke about
the balance between the many gedolim and many maskilim, and I should have
merely mentioned that the sepharadim lacked large numbers of both
extremes, again maintaining the balance.

My comment was not intended to refer to the gedolim, but rather to the
educated masses. I could go into it further, but I gotta get into the
shower quick. Suffice it to say that (a) I overstated my point, (b) I
should've included examples to clarify what I mean, (c) it was irrelevant
to the current discussion. If anyone wants to start a new thread about
sociological differences between Ashkenazim and Sefaradim, I'll
*consider* mentioning it then, but otherwise, I'm sorry.

Good Shabbos to those of you on the West Coast,
and Shavua Tov to the rest!

Akiva Miller

___________________________________________________________________
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In a message dated 10/29/99 12:01:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< I do mean to neither advocate nor to denigrate Toward Tradition on-line; 
merely 
 to note that it exists as a Traditional/Ortho Jewish repsonse to our 
society's 
 increasing permissiveness. >>

Toward Tradition is not a bad start conceptually, although all its positions 
are incorrect.
Oh, I forgot to warn you, my politics are rather to the left.

Jordan

There are pros and cons about everything including
this subject.  Your point is well taken as I think
mine should be.

HM


--- Allen Baruch <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM> wrote:
> HM writes:
> "But, it is also
> gutless.  People of conviction should not be afraid
> of
> publicly stating their positions.  Sharp verbal
> attacks  can serve as a springboard for further
> debate"
> 
> A) Anonymity can help by removing personality from
> the debate
> (admittedly, the context of Avodah helps a lot by
> itself)
> B)There is a great difference between sharp verbal
> attacks and 
> personal attacks, verbal or other. (IE mentioning a
> tznius problem 
> and being attacked as a menuval)
> 
> G'S
> Sender Baruch
> 
> 


=====

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In a message dated 10/29/99 2:08:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Activities include the publication of a quarterly journal called 
Cornerstone, 
 and a Toward  Tradition newsletter; distribution of audio cassettes; 
national 
 newspaper advertisements;  national distribution of press releases; 
providing 
 speakers to other organizations; and hosts  a variety of local and national 
 events.  >>

And adopting the NRA position that greater gun control laws are not 
necessary, even after the spate of school shootings the past six months.

Jordan 

In a message dated 10/29/99 11:30:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< t absolutely nauseates me to refference him but, the
 Anti-Semite pandering, Pat Buchannan, Yimach Shemo, is
 right about one thing. There is a cultural war in this
 country between Hollywood type Humanists who are 
 moral relativists, basicly agnostic, who have an
 "anything goes" attitude,  and the Religious Right who
 believe in the absolute morality of the bible. 
 
 We need to participate in it. >>

Why? Hollywood may have values we can't live with, but thats nodifferent than 
those on the religious right in this country.

Jordan 

Contrary to popular belief, the Rav and Rav Aaron did
not see eye to eye on everything. Just to name a few, 
R. Aaron says Halel w/o a brachaon Yom HaAttzmaut. I
believe the Rav did not.  The Rav continued to support
Mizrachi after the Debacle in Chicago with R. Aaron
and the Mizrachi and R. Aaron did not. 

But despite any disagreements they had with eachother,
the love and devotion the R. Aaron had for his brother
was undeniable.  The Hespid Shloshim that R. Aaron
gave for his brother was one of the most insightful
and moving eulogies I have ever heard.

HM

--- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/28/99 7:48:42 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time, 
> hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> << I just wanted to point out that R. Aaron
> Soloveichik
>  was one of the earliest and most vocal anti Vietnam
>  war protesters, and, in a very emotional way,
> always
>  refering to the war as immoral. He spoke out early
> and
>  he spoke out often much to the chagrin of the
> Orthodox
>  and Traditional establishment at the begining of
> the
>  war.  Rav Aaron was a nemisis to those who felt
> that
>  we must support what are nation is doing. After
> all,
>  who knows better (they used to ask): we mere
>  citizens,peons who are not privy to vital national
>  security secrets, or the President et al, who have
> all
>  of U.S. intelligence at hand. But R. Aaron
> persisted
>  and angered a lot of people in the proccess, which
> in
>  the end helped contribute to his demise as RH of
> HTC. >>
> 
> Kind of ironic, since R'YBS seemed to support U.S
> involvement in Vietnam.
> 
> Jordan
> 


=====

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Once again -- lack of knowledge about Sephardi Gedolim doesn't mean there
weren't any -- it just means that their publications weren't taught in
Ashkenazi Yeshivot.

Now, if you would give me a cutoff date (after the Mechaber) when you think
that there were no more Sephardi Gedolim afterwards, I could give you a list
of such Gedolim and their publications (otherwise it will be too long).

Re the issue of Volozhin and Maskilim, you have to remember that this
mirrored what was going on in the non-jewish world.  In Sephardi communities
the Arab "Haskalla" was centuries earlier, didn't last and was subject to
Islam - it didn't have a true anti-religion componant as there was in
Europe.

Shoshana Boublil
Ramat Gan, Israel

>Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:17:36 EDT
>From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
>Subject: Extremes
>I think the example of Volozhin expressed above can be enhanced by
>contrasting it with the flip side of the coin: If Volozhin had an
>abundance of both gedolim and masklimim, then the Sepharadim had a *lack*
>of both, with an abundance of middle-of-the-roaders. Simple, G-d-fearing,
>Torah-observant Jews who succeeded in avoiding much of the divisiveness
>that has been so devastating to the Ashkenazim.

> As I pointed out several times Rav Schach in his published letters
> and derashot attacks American charedim for not being "extremist"
> enough (that is not his terminology) He complains that they are
> too influenced by American society and not truly Jewish.
>

Keep n mind that Rav Schach was speaking/writing *to his talmidim*. These
talks/letters were not meant for general consumption, but to strengthen his
talmidim in the face of the inflow of "Americanisms" here in Israel, and the
attraction that America holds for so many people here (in a gashmius
manner).

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

********************


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