Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 090

Monday, November 1 1999

• Re: Limudei Chol
• Re: your mail
• Aramaic
• Turning aside rishonim
• Re: kidra chaysa-Tangential point
• RE: Anonymity and list demographics
• Rav Shach's family
• Re: Anonymity and list demographics
• Beged Ivri
• Re: FW: Orthodox Attitudes to Food
• Re: Derech Chibah
• Orthodox Attitudes to Food
• Re[2]: Derech Chibah
• limude chol
• Re: Limudei Chol
• Re: Avodah V4 #89
• Re: Re[2]: Derech Chibah
• Lubavitch View on Secular Education
• Re: Limudei Chol
• Re: limude chol
• Re: B'rich Sh'may

R' YGB wrote:


> (BTW, I sincerely regret every single moment I spent studying trig in HS.
> B"H I was never required to take physics. A major waste of time. Tolstoy
> would have been a lot more useful!)



Hrmph.


---sam
M.Sc. Applied Physics

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:16:09 -0500 (EST) Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net>
writes:
> > I'm curious. How do I get in touch with him?
	You can call him or I can arrange to get the sefer for you if you
contact me off line (either for the phone # or to get the sefer).  He has
many more seforim as well.

> I know this Tosefot. Berachot 3a. Yes, it is a valid shita. But 
> there are those who disagree.
	I quoted Rav Dovid Cohen as one explanation,  not the only one.

> Right, so an individual doesn't, but a minyan can (and does). 
> Individual tefillot require angelic assistance to get where they're
going, but 
> the tefillot of a zibbur don't. And the malachim won't carry what they 
> can't understand.
> At least that's how we learn that SA.
	Agreed,  but Tosfos obviously hold otherwise.

> > up to Shamayim,  "stole" this phrase from the malachim.  He goes 
> on to explain that the key phrase in Kaddish,  "Yehe Shemei Rabbo..."
is 
> an Aramaic translation of Boruch Shem.
> But it's not. See above.
	He does say that this is the Aramaic equivalent of Boruch Shem.  I
cannot quote the entire piece, but if you want to borrow the sefer,  you
can contact me offline.

Gershon

From: Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net>
To: gershon.dubin@juno.com (Gershon Dubin)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:16:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: your mail

You wrote:

> 
> > 	I am not familiar with Pesichas Eliyahu although I suspect same goes
> as
> > for the quote from selichos above.  Kaddish is a special case;  see
for
> > example Rav Dovid Cohen's Masas Kapai.
> 
> <Is this the name of a sefer? I haven't seen it. Would you be kind
enough
> to summarize for me what makes Kaddish special?>
> 	The sefer Masas Kapai is a very interesting sefer by Rav Dovid Cohen
on
> Tefila.   So far there are five volumes.  Available only  AFAIK,  from
> the mechaber.



I'm curious. How do I get in touch with him?




> 
> 	`There is a Tosfos in Berachos which mentions a shita that Kadish was
> composed in Aramaic  **in order*  that the malachim should not
understand
> it.


I know this Tosefot. Berachot 3a. Yes, it is a valid shita. But there are
those who disagree. The Shibole Haleket (sorry, I can't remember the
author's name, and I don't have it handy) writes that Kaddish was
translated into Aramaic because of a gezera not to say "Yehei Shemo
Hagadol Mevorach", which he claims was the original text of Kaddish, in
Hebrew. Which translates to "Yehei Shemeh Raba Mevorach", which is
apparently different enough that it wouldn't be recognized.

He says we still recite it in Aramaic to publicize the miriacles which
occured then, which leads me to believe it was the Assyrians at the time
of the Hashmonaim who made the gezera.

The Ben Ish Hai takes a lightly different view, that Kaddish was written
in Aramaic around the Hebrew phrase "Yehei Shemo...", which was then
translated into Aramaic at the time of the gezera.


>  (I should put in here that the source of the no-no for Aramaic is a
> Gemara in Shabbos 12b,  and SA OC I think it's 101:4,  which says that
a
> person should not pray in Aramaic because the malachim don't handle
> tefilos in Aramaic.  Look there in SA.)


Right, so an individual doesn't, but a minyan can (and does). Individual
tefillot require angelic assistance to get where they're going, but the
tefillot of a zibbur don't. And the malachim won't carry what they can't
understand.

At least that's how we learn that SA.


> 	Rav Cohen's explanation is based on a Medrash that we say the phrase
> "Boruch Shem Kevod Malchuso" quietly because Moshe Rabeinu,  when he
went
> up to Shamayim,  "stole" this phrase from the malachim.  He goes on to
> explain that the key phrase in Kaddish,  "Yehe Shemei Rabbo..." is an
> Aramaic translation of Boruch Shem.


But it's not. See above.


---sam
still wondering why Kaddish is special

What does yehei munach ad shevovo Eliyahu imply?

What does the tradition that le'osid lovo we will follow Beish Shammai over 
Beish Hillel Imply?  Wouldn't it be a KV that we could follow RT over Rashi 
legabei Tefillin? 

What does greater in number etc. have to do with decisions made by Rishonim?  
Isn't that formula restricted to gezeiros and Takknos?

Didn't Eliyohu Hanovo's revival of Semicho imply an ipso facto greter chochmo 
than belongin to any Rishon?

Wouldn't Moshiach as the 2nd greatest Novi of all time imply greater than 
Rishonic Chochmo?

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: turning aside rishonim 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate 
Date:    10/31/1999 5:48 PM


Regarding Richards claim that
>>>>>
While a Sandhedrin may not choose to exercise ALL of its authority; 
nevertheless, A bona fide Snahedrin certainly could deal with these 
issues and 
not feel restricted by the  Rishonim if it chose to.  I would think it 
could 
repeal Beis Hillel and pasken like Beis Shammai (isn't that the case 
leossid 
lovo?).
>>>>>>>>>>

No Sanhedrin can just "repeal" Rishonim. THey have to 
---be greater in number
---greater in wisdom
---have a good reason (eg an error in a rishon) 
---not do it too often

The last stipulation is important

Russell
___________________________________________________________________ 
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! 
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

> Question: Isn't every case of a ocholent pot raided at midnight "ossur
> bechazora"?
>
> Don't you have to remove it from the flame in order to ladel it out?
Wouldn't
> ladelling it out and returning it to th fire consitute chazoro regardless
of
> kidra chyaso, maachol drusoi, etc.?  I guess there MIGHT be an exemption
if the
> cholent was 100% mevushal kol tzorko before Shabbos, but I'm not clear on
this
> either...
>
> Rich Wolpoe
>
Putting aside for a moment the issue of the ethics of the midnight raid:

Hachzarah itself is not a problem if 5 conditions are fulfilled.
1- flame must be covered - (blech)
2- food must be fully cooked
3- food must still be warm when returned.

4- there should be intention to return the pot
5- don't let go of the pot!

In times of need you can waive 4 OR 5. In times of great need you can waive
both together.

(Based on shiurim byRabbi Moshe Dombey & Shmiras Shabbos cehilchoso- Rav
Neuwirth)

The bone issue is complicated by the kinds of bones used:

Big meat bones for the purpose of flavouring the soup
Small chicken bones included with the chicken.

Bottom line,  make sure your LOR is raiding the cholent with you!
( re first point: As long as there is enough cholent for Shabbos, no
problem. Most housewives would be very happy that  it gets finished off.)

Mrs. G.A.

>

> What is the source for beged ivri ? Did  Avraham Avinu wear different
> clothing styles than his neighbors?

Avraham Avinu, no.

Mitzraim, yes -- the midrash brings down that the Jews merited redemption
from Egypt on account of three things: They didn't change their names,
language, and dress.






===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

Carl M. Sherer wrote

..... While Rav Schach is known to be
vehemently opposed to secular education (kind of ironic when you
consider how much of his own family went to university and where
he was before he came to Ponevich),  ...

Please fill in the implied knowledge.  I am missing something.

Yaakov

In a message dated 11/1/99 12:21:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 Mitzraim, yes -- the midrash brings down that the Jews merited redemption
 from Egypt on account of three things: They didn't change their names,
 language, and dress.
  >>
We've discussed this on the list before (prior to your participation I 
think).  Can you point to where this particular medrash is found?  Was the 
dress that they didn't change uniquely ivri or was it simply foreign to Egypt?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

> Akiva would wear Reuven Prager's "Beged Ivri" but the neighbourhood
> isn't ready for it yet. It's waiting in the machsan for Mashiach.  
> Default plain black kipah.

What's "Beged Ivri" in this context?

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

In a message dated 11/1/99 11:15:12 AM EST, MFeldman@CM-P.COM forwarded:

>  the proliferation of glatt kosher, halav
>  > yisrael etc. 

How does this fit into the picture?

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

     Joel Rich wrote:
     
     >>Bereishis 29:11
     
     I reserve the right to transliterate incorrectly and inconsistently.  
     Isn't that what being frum is all about?
     
     Moshe Feldman wrote:
     
     >>Funny.  I was looking for my kids a shidduch who is extremely
     open-minded! ;-)
     
     Sorry, but I live on the wrong side of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway 
     for extreme open-mindedness. :)

I read that R. Nachman of Breslov used the taavo of food to channel his libido; 
and then overcame that taavo too> (Otherwise - according to the story - we would
not be zoche to see the Avos in Gan Eden)

To be melamed zechus (in a reflection of R. Levi Yitzchok of Berdicehv) frumme 
yidn have channeled a lot of their taavos into food.  How superiro this is than 
being into alcohol, drugs, licentious behaviour etc.

Another case of a lesser evil perhaps?

Rich Wolpoe 

I had heard Midroshim stating that Rivko was 3 years old, I was not aware that 
this was true of Rochel, too.  Is anyone aware of a source for this?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

<snip>

Funny.  I was looking for my kids a shidduch who is extremely 
open-minded! ;-)

As to Bereshit 29:11, Rachel wasn't necessarily a niddah (according 
to Midrashim? that she was three years old).

Kol tuv,
Moshe

With regard to the debate over limude chol, I think that it is misleading to
equate the debate today with the debate over limude chol one hundred years ago,
as the issues are very different.

One hundred years ago, the eastern European community could fulfill its entire
communal needs with little need for secular education.  Students at Volozhin did
not need to go to college (or high school) for most of the jobs in their
society.    While certain professions required education, society could (and
did) function without them.  The classical debate about secular education and
knowledge was primarily about what R Berger called 4b - whether secular
knowledge, especially humanities and philosophy , has intrinsic kdusha.  Are
there any halachic sources prior to the 20th century that forbid occupational
studies??  (This is a different debate than arguments about the preferred
occupation and the permissibility of learning for a living). 

Today, unless one wishes to create an Amish type society, secular education is
necessary for almost all positions except for small tradesmen, and even there,
increasing education is becoming necessary.  

The debate today therefore is not a continuation of the old debate about whether
to study philosophy.  Rather, it relates to a different debate - the ultimate
aim of society:  Whether  our aim is to have a society run according to torah
values, or whether our aim is to produce "gdolim b'torah", and to leave the
establishment  of a Torah society to y'mot hamashiach.  
 
If a society is to be run according to torah values, then we must have dati
professionals able to fill all essential roles.  If our sole aim is to have
"gdolim b'torah", then, as Rav Dessler has said, we can not have other options
outside torah except as small tradesmen.  As the Amish option is not pursued, it
means that the Torah community is inherently dependent on the non datiim both
financially and for basic services, admitting that bazman hazeh, we can not run
a true Torah society.  

While this is a legitimate argument, I think that it is a actually an extremely
novel one.  Furthermore, the emphasis on producing g'dolim b'torah without
regard to the social consequences is also extremely novel (vehachadash assur min
hatorah ... :) )  Rav Chaim Brisker, when asked for the role of a rav, defined
it in terms of social justice, rather than achieving g'dula in study.  

Lastly, it has been suggested that the problem is the environment of college
rather than the studies themselves.  While the college environment is a problem,
there has also been intrinsic opposition to the studies themselves, as witness
the oppositon by Rav Kotler to the establishment of a college when proposed by
Torav Voda'ath and Chaim Berlin in the 1940s, and the current opposition by many
to Touro, which tries to eliminate the environmental issue. haredi schools could
teach basic secular studies with full control over the environment, but this is
not done.  

Meir Shinnar

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> If they studied Tolstoy they would still remain
> unemployed.
> 
> Ditto if they studied trigonometry or physics.
> 
> (BTW, I sincerely regret every single moment I spent
> studying trig in HS.
> B"H I was never required to take physics. A major
> waste of time. Tolstoy
> would have been a lot more useful!)

Emplyment is not the only reason to study Mada. 

Also, one persons Tostoy is another persons
Trigonmetry.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Carl, I hope you'll forgive me for saying this, but this time B"H I don't
agree with some of what you said:

>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:40:24 +0200
>From: "Carl M. Sherer" <csherer@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: Re: Limudei Chol and Parnassa
>
>On 1 Nov 99, at 10:44, Arnold Lustiger wrote:
[del for bw]
>With all that you guys talk about Lakewood as if it is some
>monolith trying to bring this type of situation to the US, my
>recollection is (and they started this before I went on aliya) that the
>entire premise behind the Lakewood Kollels in places like Chicago
>and Boston is that (1) they will pay a stipend that will allow the
>yungerman and his family to live like mentchen, (2) while he is
>learning there, the yungerman will be involved in teaching Torah to
>the community at large, and (3) he will leave the Kollel after a
>certain number of years and hopefully will take some position as a
>Rabbinic leader within the community. I thought program was great
>(has it changed?). You won't find anything like that here, partly
>because across the board (even in the MO Yeshivas), the message
>is that if you're not sitting and learning in Yeshiva all the time, you
>won't sit and learn at all.

First of all, there are such programs here (my BIL is learning in one and
another BIL learned in one years ago).  I don't know how many or how large -
but they do exist.

Secondly, in some of the Hesder Kollelim it was considered part of the
program to teach Sundays and Fridays Judaica studies in various schools in
the region.  The reason for Sunday and Friday was that the young couples
often went to their parents for Shabbat, so Sunday first seder was pushed
off to the night, and on Friday they were leaving for their parents
home/cleaning (b/c the wives were working) etc., and so the Rabbis preferred
that they work than waste their time.

In some yeshivot they were even willing to help people with various talents
make a living(selling art work etc.).

> The idea of the baalebus who learns the
>Daf every day is SO unusual here, I cannot begin to tell you.
>Suffice it to say that there were many more people at the last
>Siyum HaShas in the States (and probably at each location in the
>States) than there were here. Kvias itim doesn't exist in the Israeli
>mindset - it's an all or nothing approach.


I'm sorry, but you're just in the wrong community.  There are many groups
here in Ramat Gan that do Kvias Itim, some privately, some through the local
shuls.  At one time some Hesder Roshei Yeshiva would come to this area (most
Hesderim till lately were near the Israeli borders) to give regular shiurim
to graduates.  Now that we have a local Hesder here in Ramat Gan and another
in Petah Tiquva, evening shiurim for Ba'alei Batim and graduates are regular
features.

There are many Daf Yomi groups (just look at any local notice board),
Rambam, Tanach etc.,
[del b/c of bw]
>- -- Carl


Shoshana L. Boublil (nee Skaist)
Ramat Gan, Israel

In a message dated 11/1/99 1:25:48 PM EST, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> I had heard Midroshim stating that Rivko was 3 years old, I was not aware 
> that 
>  this was true of Rochel, too.  Is anyone aware of a source for this?
>  
The opinions mentioned in Seder Hadoros year 2192 are, 5,14,15,19,21,24.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

--- "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know the Lubavich position on college
> studies?

College is Assur!

Secular studies are a wstye of time and whenever
possible should be avoided.

To that extent,  The Lubavitch Mesivta (HS) does not
have a secular program and in Detroit, The Lubavitch
elemetry school does not have a secular program.

The only time Lubavitch allows a secular program is if
it the only way they can establish a school.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

On 1 Nov 99, at 11:06, harry maryles wrote:

> 
> 
> --- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> > If they studied Tolstoy they would still remain
> > unemployed.
> > 
> > Ditto if they studied trigonometry or physics.
> > 
> > (BTW, I sincerely regret every single moment I spent
> > studying trig in HS.
> > B"H I was never required to take physics. A major
> > waste of time. Tolstoy
> > would have been a lot more useful!)
> 
> Emplyment is not the only reason to study Mada. 

It may not be, but it sure makes the time spent on learning 
something other than Torah a lot more easy to justify.

-- Carl (who has three degrees in case you were wondering)


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 11/1/99 1:31:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
meir_shinnar@smtplink.mssm.edu writes:

<< 
 While this is a legitimate argument, I think that it is a actually an 
extremely
 novel one.  Furthermore, the emphasis on producing g'dolim b'torah without
 regard to the social consequences is also extremely novel (vehachadash assur 
min
 hatorah ... :) )  Rav Chaim Brisker, when asked for the role of a rav, 
defined
 it in terms of social justice, rather than achieving g'dula in study.  
  >>
I've made this argument, the response is generally that if we all learned all 
the time then all else would be naaseh al yidei acherim.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

david.nadoff wrote:


> 2. In v4#79, someone wrote that the Ari did not say B'rich Sh'may. This
> is  clearly wrong. Ben Ish Chai cites several places in the kisvay
> ha'Ari in which R' Chaim Vital testifies that he did say it. (See Sod 
> Yesharim # 8, in Shu"t Rav Pe'olim, vol. 3.) Chida agrees that the Ari
> said it, although Ben Ish Chai and Chida differ on whether the Ari said 
> it only on Shabbos.



Yes. That was I. What I remember writing was that the siddur of the Chida
quotes that The Ari didn't say it. You are right, it is in reference to
weekdays on which we read the Torah. That's what I get for doing my
reference in the last five minutes before running out the door in the
morning. I should take my seforim with me if I plan to attribute.

The Chidah says that the Ari did not say it on weekdays, not that he did
not say it at all.

Thank you.



> 4. Mention has been made of the fact that the source for B'rich Sh'May is
> Zohar, Vayakhel 210. It should be noted that the Zohar does not bring this
> prayer just as one that was "m'ragla b'pumya" of someone (like many
> private bakoshos brought in m'seches B'rachos), but as a a prayer that,
> according to R' Shimon ben Yochai, -should- be said. I am not saying
> this makes it obligatory, but I am skeptical of the claim that serious
> poskim hold it shouldn't be said at all. To my knowledge, the only 
> dispute among the poskim is whether it should be said on weekdays and
> yom tov when the Torah is taken out or only on Shabbos.


There is also an opinion (mentioned in the Ben Ish Hai) that it should be
said on weekdays that Musaf is recited, but that we don't.


---sam

********************


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