Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 096

Tuesday, November 2 1999

• Re: beged ivri
• Re: Charedi University
• Re: Tephillin Dates
• Friendly fundamentalists
• Fraudulent Curricula
• Re: Re: Catch up learning
• Re: Fraudulent Curricula
• Re: Brich shmey, limudei chol
• The Fellowship of Christians and Jews
• Re: Anonymity and list demographics
• Re: your mail
• Re: your mail
• Re: Re: Catch up learning
• Bekiyut -- Who needs it?
• Re: Bekiyut -- Who needs it?
• Re: Catch up learning

In a message dated 11/2/99 9:30:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gatwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 Not appropriate to NY CEO life, I understand.  Question here- how exactly to
  we follow the ruling not to follow the clothing styles of the goyim?
 
 Mrs. G. Atwood.
  >>
Nor NY actuaries :-)
I believe the Rav(YBS) held that the clothing issue was limited to wearing 
the clothes of a specific nationality (my guess is that it might include 
kilts although I vaguely remember France as a hypothetical example). FWIW the 
category of Darchei emori seems to fit this approach (although chukat haacum 
sounds more like anything they do without a reason -- like ties?:-)).

I do appreciate the background on beged ivri

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

What happened to Empire State College, and, before that Rockland Community
College? Are they not in the business anymore?



----- Original Message -----
From: <BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 8:17 AM
Subject: Charedi University


> I'm the *volunteered* (tm) executive secretary of the Jewish Bible
> Association, an affiliate of the Dept. of Education of the Jewish Agency.
> Members of our Association have been appointed as official Faculty
> Evaluators (for portfolio credit) in Jewish Studies by Charter Oak
> State College in CT. Charter Oak does all the portfolio evaluation
> for Regents College (Univ of the State of NY). Yeshiva high school
> graduates can take our rigorous exams (in Israel) and get up to 90
> credits (liberal arts). If they have AP (advanced placement) courses
> in high school (English Composition, Math, Science, Social Sciences
> for 30 general education credits), they can get their regionally
> accredited BA in a summer.
>
> Those without AP credit in high school can also avail themselves of
> other faculty (e.g. we have a Rav with a PhD in physics who will
> coach and tutor the students to pass the CLEP (College Level Examination
> Program of the College Boards) exams in college math and physical science;
> other faculty, including a former YU English professor will coach and
> tutor the students to pass the CLEP exam in English, etc.).
>
> SECOND BA: for American students who want a second BA from another
> university (CUNY, Univ Maryland, Univ Wisconsin, etc. The full list
> of these 20 or so colleges is on our website below) in ANY field can
> obtain this in 2 semesters (30 credits in the major).
>
> SYLLABUS AND GENERAL INFO: www.jewishbible.org
> (There are courses in: Hebrew, Jewish Music, Bible (Chumash), Talmud
> and Jewish Law (hilchot kashrut and hilchot shabbat).
>
> The program is endorsed by the TORANI DEPT. of the Israel Experience.
> Jewish Agency.
>
> Parents save $110,000 on college costs (entire cost of program include
> flight to Israel is about $7000). Charedi students won't have to worry
> about any *secular* environment.
>
> Josh
>

In a message dated 11/2/99 9:41:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 
 > Just a curiosity check - assuming that one was
 > nichshol in this area (Teffilin dates), would 
 > we advise him(or her) not to daven the next morning
 > (or for him not to put on 
 > tfillin).  I'd suggest that many of us are nichshol
 > in some area 
 
 I don't get it.  Just because you do one aveira
 doesn't mean you are prevented from doing other
 mitzvos.  The only time you should not be doing
 mitzvos is when doing them in the context of an Aveira
 would constitute a Chilul HaShem, (e.g. wearing a
 yamulke while robbing a bank) >>
I agree -- so why would people be so taken aback by the occurrence of tfillin 
dates, if they did occur? It sounds like we should be more taken aback by one 
Jew defrauding another while wearing a kippa(or hat:-)), if this did occur.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Look, I hate to hak on this (I deleted the last digest so I can't
quote HM's last post), but we cannot define our public relationships
with right-wing Xtians based on whether they want to convert us. This 
standard is way too lax. (Just say "no" and you've won a Jewish friend!)
Rather, we part company with the Pat Robertsons and Ralph Reeds of this world on 
much more basic issues. E.g.: "voluntary" (read: everybody except
the Jewish kid) prayers to Yoshke in the classroom. Where do you
think Robertson and Reed stand on this one, hm?

I think the difference in our positions might be based on where we grew
up. Surprise -- not every Jewish family lives in a metropolis, and strangely
enough Jewish families in Southern towns get quite het up when 
"voluntary" Christian prayer is instituted in the classroom. To which
the response from the "friendly fundamentalists" is: Hey, we're
all Judeo-Christian, right?  

Sholem Berger

--- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Does anyone know the Lubavich position on college
> >> studies?
> > 
> > College is Assur!
> > 
> > Secular studies are a wstye of time and whenever
> > possible should be avoided.
> > To that extent,  The Lubavitch Mesivta (HS) does
> not
> > have a secular program and in Detroit, The
> Lubavitch
> > elemetry school does not have a secular program.
> > The only time Lubavitch allows a secular program
> is if
> > it the only way they can establish a school.
> > 
> I though all states in the US require secular
> studies through the 10th grade.

You could've fooled me.

I believe that the state requirements are very liberal
when it comes to defining there minimum high school
requirements. Also, they will mislead state agencies
that deal with these requirements. I believe Lubavitch
feels that as long as they can get away with it they
are going to do it their way.  I further believe that
Lubavitch is not alone in this attitude.  It is,
becoming more fashionable these days amongst upstart
Yeshivos (Yes... the U.S. seems to following Israels
lead here) to be  free of all secular studies and to
that effect they probably also, mislead authorities. 
I wonder how many of these institutions receive state
funds towards programs that don't really exist.

HM



=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

I do not know about RCS, but I am willing to say it. That there are
exceptions to a rule does not disprove the rule.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <gil.student@citicorp.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Catch up learning


>      Carl Sherer wrote:
>
>      >>I should clarify (as RYGB alludes to in his post) that while the
>      American bochur can catch up to the average serious Israeli bochur,
he
>      is unlikely to catch up to the true iluyim here (because of the level
>      of bekius).>>
>
>      Are you saying that the American iluy can't keep up with the Israeli
>      iluy because the American went to high school and college?  Are you
>      willing to say that to R. Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg's face?  What about
>      R. Hershel Schachter?  When I was in YU there were a few iluyim who
>      gained tremendous bekius despite their secular studies.
>
>

Tad slanderous here!

Laws require schooling throught the tenth grade, they do not dictate
curricula.

There is, now, a prohibition on opening Boys' HS's with Limudei Chol in the
township of Lakewood (that is, for those affiliated with the Yeshiva
community). This is done completely aboveboard and legally. The children
continue schooling, just not schooling with Limudei Chol.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>

> > I though all states in the US require secular
> > studies through the 10th grade.
>
> You could've fooled me.
>
> I believe that the state requirements are very liberal
> when it comes to defining there minimum high school
> requirements. Also, they will mislead state agencies
> that deal with these requirements. I believe Lubavitch
> feels that as long as they can get away with it they
> are going to do it their way.  I further believe that
> Lubavitch is not alone in this attitude.  It is,
> becoming more fashionable these days amongst upstart
> Yeshivos (Yes... the U.S. seems to following Israels
> lead here) to be  free of all secular studies and to
> that effect they probably also, mislead authorities.
> I wonder how many of these institutions receive state
> funds towards programs that don't really exist.
>
> HM
>
>
>
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>

Elazar M Teitz wrote:



> Mention was also made about some minhagim which do not say the Aramaic
> parts of Slichos. Can the writer be more specific? (Some Yeshivos omit
> Machnisey Rachamim to avoid intermediaries, but all the Yeshivos I
> attended said Rachamana.)  


That was I, I believe. But I don't recall mentioning minhagim _not_ to say
the Aramaic parts. I don't remember who the other person was (pardon), but
he had asked which Aramaic parts I was talking about, which gave me the
impression that perhaps Ashkenazi selihit differ from Sefaradi ones. WHat
I actually said about not saying the Aramaic parts was exactly what you
said:

> Incidentally, vis-a-vis the question of Aramaic b'tzibur, the Aramaic
> parts of Slichos are to be said *only* b'tzibur, not b'yachid.


Yes, that.



---sam

I think we should consider the trade-offs:

OTOH a liberal, but amoral, G-dless society, tolerant and full of pritzus

and 

OTOH a conservative society where proselytizing is ok, and so is tznius, and 
prayer, and a more G-d oriented hashkofo...

If you think that THE biggest threat to our neshomos is Je... then you will side
wit hthe liberals.

If you think that THE biggest threat to our neshomos is atheism, you might find 
value in joingin with Xtians.

I guess the bottom line is this: which is worse? 
Avodo Zoro
or
Kofeir bakol (iow a belief in NO G-d whatsoever)

btw, I am curious to know what the classic texts say about Avodo Zoro vs. a 
totally G-dless POV.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>

I think it's time to rethink our attitude towards 
Christians.  I know it is difficult especially in light 
of their inglorious past of the masacre and torture of 
our people in the name of YeShu over these past two 
millenia. Yes we should always keep in mind that Eisof 
soneh Es Yakov and have our collective antennae up. But 
we should should consider all factors when making 
judgements about them, and when we have things in common 
we should be able to work towards a common goal.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

     Gila Atwood wrote:
     
     >>Question here- how exactly to we follow the ruling not to follow the 
     clothing styles of the goyim?>>
     
     There is a machlokes rishonim what the issur entails.  The Rema in Y"D 
     178 (?) paskens like the Maharik and Ran that it is only assur to wear 
     clothes that have a basis in avodah zara or peritzus.  Others are more 
     machmir.  The Maharik is actually MORE lenient (as can be seen from 
     his actual teshuvah and from the quotation in the Bais Yosef).  He 
     says that as long as you are not wearing the clothes specifically to 
     imitate gentiles it is permissible to wear clothes even if they have a 
     basis in avodah zara or peritzus.  I think this Maharik is the only 
     way to permit wearing graduation gowns that derive from Christian 
     Monasteries.

You wrote:



> > > up to Shamayim,  "stole" this phrase from the malachim.  He goes 
> > on to explain that the key phrase in Kaddish,  "Yehe Shemei Rabbo..."
> is 
> > an Aramaic translation of Boruch Shem.
> > But it's not. See above.
> 	He does say that this is the Aramaic equivalent of Boruch Shem.  I
> cannot quote the entire piece, but if you want to borrow the sefer,  you
> can contact me offline.


Yes, please, if you don't mind. I'm curious. I can see that Boruch Shem
Kevod Malchuto Le'olam Wa'ed is conceptually identical to Yehe Shemeh
Rabba Mevarach Le'alam, but it's not a direct translation, nor does it
really fit as a reply to Yitgadal Ve'yitkadash Shemehe Rabba.

The Shalme Tzibbur says that Yitgadal ve'yitkadash is based on the pasuk
(Yehezkel 38:23) where the navi says "Vehitgadilti vehitkadishti" (at the
end of the war the Shem will be exalted and sanctified) to fulfill the
nevuah (Zechariah 14:9) "Bayom hahu yihiyeh Hashen ehad u'shmo ehad" (on
that day He will be One and His Name will be One).

The Shem was torn during the war with Amalek (Shemot 17:6) "Ki yad al-case
<Yud-Heh> milhama laHashem ba'Amalek midor dor"  Yud-Heh being only half
of the Shem Hameforash, and that being how Hashem is known during the time
that we have an outstanding issue with Amalek, including now and until the
conclusion of the war of Gog and Magog, when it will once again be Yud-Heh
AND Vav-Heh, complete.

Thus, he says, "Yitgadal ve'yitkadash shemeheh rabba" is a petition that
the Shem <Yud-Heh> (Shin Mem Yud Heh, split into two words Shem Y-H) be
sanctified and exalted by becoming whole again.

To which Yehe Shemeheh Rabba Mevorach is a fitting response, according to
the Kol Bo (Berachot 3a) because it is a prayer that the Shem be made
whole once again. Whereas Boruch Shem, stolen from the malachim, could be
nothing other than praise.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Convince me.

Or lend me the sefer, and let him convince me. Mail, or your son-in-law?

Should we take this back on-line? I'll save a copy and forward it myself
if you say yes. I'd be curious what, if anything, others might have to
add.

Thanks.


---sam

I  wrote:


> Should we take this back on-line? I'll save a copy and forward it myself
> if you say yes. I'd be curious what, if anything, others might have to
> add.
> 


Whoops. Looks like I responded to the wrong copy.


---sam

On 2 Nov 99, at 9:39, gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:

>      Carl Sherer wrote:
>      
>      >>I should clarify (as RYGB alludes to in his post) that while the 
>      American bochur can catch up to the average serious Israeli bochur, he 
>      is unlikely to catch up to the true iluyim here (because of the level 
>      of bekius).>>
>      
>      Are you saying that the American iluy can't keep up with the Israeli 
>      iluy because the American went to high school and college?  

There were two separate issues in my post this morning. One was 
the natural advantage that an Israeli bochur has over an American 
one due to the lack of a language barrier in learning. The other was 
the issue of secular studies, and how their presence or absence 
affects a bochur's cheishek to learn and his devotion to learning.

I'm saying that an American iluy can almost never catch up to the 
level of bekiyus that the Israeli gets as a child. That has nothing to 
do with secular studies. It has to do with language, and the age 
and level at which the Israeli starts out learning Mishna and 
Gemara. For example, in our neighborhood, there are constantly 
contests for even the youngest kids to learn Mishnayos by heart. 
There are constantly competitive tests in Halacha and Tanach that 
are given on a citywide scale. There are constant (nightly) learning 
sdorim for kids who are 10 and 11 and 12 with prizes for showing 
up regularly. For the kids from 9th grade and up there are paid (the 
kids get paid) learning sessions during Bein HaZmanim, and the 
kids can be tested on the Gemara they learned in school the 
previous zman (25 blatt minimum). All of this leads to a command 
of the material that you don't usually see outside of Israel. And 
while a chutznik can make up a lot of that through diligence and 
hard work, when you're talking about the best of the Israeli bochrim 
it will be very difficult to make up all of it.

Are you 
>      willing to say that to R. Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg's face?  

I don't think he went to college, but that's beside the point. 
Although he was born in America, his training was in Europe (R. 
Scheinberg learned in Mir - the town - not just the Yeshiva). 

And if you ask R. Scheinberg whether the American bochrim in his 
Yeshiva are capable of catching up to the best Israeli bochrim, I'll 
bet he'll tell you that it's highly unlikely.

What about 
>      R. Hershel Schachter?  

I didn't say there weren't exceptions. But that just proves the rule.

When I was in YU there were a few iluyim who 
>      gained tremendous bekius despite their secular studies.

I don't know when you were in YU or whom you are referring to, but 
the odds are that there is no comparison between whomever you 
knew at YU and the real iluyim in EY. When I was in Yeshiva here, 
the legend was about a guy in Itri who at the age of 19 had been 
through Shas seven times. Not many guys in the States can make 
that claim. 

But I didn't say that one's level of bekiyus had anything to do with 
having had secular studies. What I said is that the best Israelis, 
because of their language advantage, have a natural advantage over 
the best chutznikim. What I also said is that the chutznikim have 
an ability to overcome their natural disadvantage because of the 
freshness with which they often arrive at Yeshiva here. I believe that 
freshness is the result of suddenly having the burden of secular 
studies lifted when the chutznik arrives here. I also have it on good 
source that the "burn out" rate for Israelis that do not have any 
secular studies is in the 20-30% range for high school age kids. 

It is my argument that giving an Israeli kid enough secular studies 
to make the absence of that distraction noticeable when he gets to 
Yeshiva Gdola can give you the best of both worlds. I don't think 
the Israeli loses a lot in the bekiyus area, because I think that 
most of the time spent on secular studies at high school age is 
time that would otherwise have been wasted. And I think that 
removing the secular studies after "high school" gives the same 
feeling of freshness when the Israeli gets to Yeshiva Gdola that a 
chutznik has when he comes here to learn.

There are a lot more Gdolim today in EY than there are anyplace 
else in the world (especially if you eliminate the European-trained 
Gdolim in the States who did not grow up in the American yeshiva 
system). I think the main reason for that is that the Israelis have a 
head start because of language and school curriculum. Girsa 
d'yankusa is a difficult head start to overcome.

To be melamed zchus, in my experience at least, the 
overwhelming majority of the guys you see shteiging away in the 
Beis Medrash late at night here are Americans (and English and 
other chutznikim). And that's why the chutznikim can catch up to 
some of the Israelis. But that goes back to what I said this morning 
about the Israelis suffering from burnout. For the best of the 
Israelis, the ones who start at the top of the heap, don't burn out 
and continue to shteig, it's highly unlikely that anyone from chutz 
la'aretz is going to catch them. 

It may be a novel way of putting it, but if you want your kid to have 
a shot at being a gadol, you improve his chances greatly if you 
come on aliya. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

R. Carl Sherer wrote:

>What I was trying to point out in the snippet you posted is that an
>Israeli who is serious about learning at a young (and I mean really
>young) age can gain a level of bekius that (because of girsa
>d'yankusa) cannot really be replicated no matter how much one
>may try.

Which elicited the following charged response from
gil.student@citicorp.com

>     Are you saying that the American iluy can't keep up with the Israeli
>     iluy because the American went to high school and college?  Are you
>     willing to say that to R. Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg's face?  What about
>     R. Hershel Schachter?  When I was in YU there were a few iluyim who
>     gained tremendous bekius despite their secular studies.

Moving away from the politicized question of secular studies and the
education of iluyim, I note that both Carl and Gil focus on the
importance of bekiyut.  Now I am, both by training and inclination, one
who values iyyun over bekiyut, but I would like to try to put aside my
personal bias (which is Ashkenazic/Litvish/Brisker) and explore the
relative importance of bekiyut both as an aspiration for al benei Torah,
as well as in the context of the development of gedolim/manhigim and
talmidei hakhamim.

I begin with two propositions: 1) A basic level of bekiyut is an
absolute requirement for a talmid hakham, but 2) on the other hand, even
superhuman bekiyut is not sufficient, by itself, to make one a talmid
hakham, and certainly not a gadol.

I wonder if it is possible to define what the basic level of bekiyut
that a talmid hakaham should have or aspire to.  For example, I believe
we can agree that the vaunted "pin test," while an impressive parlor
trick, is neither necessary nor particularly useful to a talmid hakham.
I think it also uncontroversial that, say, knowing Shas word-for-word
be-'al peh is not an absolute requirement.  But perhaps we can go
farther.   Is it necessary for the talmid hakham to even know the shakla
ve-tarya of Shas be-`al peh?   I would contend that, while such bekiyut
was once a necessity, the ubiquity of the printed Shas that currently
exists means that a talmid hakham may suffice with knowing where the
sugya can be found, without knowing the sugya be-'al peh.  [As a side
point, I do not believe that a CD ROM is a substitute for knowing Shas,
and I assume I do not have to explain why.]  And perhaps we can even
dispense with knowing some of the aggedata.  (I think so, but am not
inclined to argue about it.)

Which brings us to Rishonim and Aharonim.  Barukh Hashem we live in an
age where an average kollel avrekh has a better library than that of
most gedolim of earlier gerations.  We have access to an unprecedented
number and variety of Rishonim, both perushim on Shas and shut, and a
limitless number of Aharonim as well.  Common sense dictates that no
talmid hakham be required to know them all.  More importantly, to
paraphrase Orwell, all Rishonim may be equal, but some Rishonim are more
equal than others.

So, while a talmid hakham must have a good grasp of the various
interpretations of a sugya or the various piskei halakhah on an issue,
it seems to me that he (does anyone mind my using the masculine form
here?) need not know these be-'al peh and, more importantly, what he
does need to know is how to apply, interpret or reconcile these varied
opinions.

In short, I think that too many in the olam ha-Torah put too much
emphasis on bekiyut for its' own sake.  Put more pithily, we do not need
walking databases.

This conclusion is, for me, confirmed when I survey the last century and
a half.   If one looks at the dominant voices, one finds those who
excelled at what the Rambam calls Talmud (i.e., sevara, iyyun, dimyon
milta le-milta), rather than great bekiyim.  This seems to be true in
pesak (from Hatam Sofer to Iggerot Moshe) as well as in Gemara (from R.
Hayyim to R. Gustman).  In contrast to these Gedolim, one finds that
there were literally hundreds of towns in Eastern Europe each of whom
had a communal rav who knew Shas and posekim cold.  For the most part,
however, their names remain obscure or are forgotten altogether.

[I concede that the Sefardic tradition has, historically, put more
emphasis on bekiyut and, for that reason, many Ashkenazic Gedolim would
never have passed muster in the Sefardic world.  But I wonder if that is
changing today, at least in Israel, given what appears to me to be the
profound influence of the Litvish yeshivos on the Sefardic ones.  On
this point I welcome input from those in the field.]

If my analysis is valid, I think it has wide ranging implications, both
curricular and otherwise, for the bahur and the ba'al ha-bayyit
(especially the one caught in the daf yomi craze).

I close with a joke (and apologies to those offended by it):

In the wake of the chess match between Gary Kasparov and IBM's Big Blue,
a competition was held pitting R. Ovadya Yosef against the Bar llan
database.  R. Ovadia beat the computer in bekiyyut.  But in iyyun the
computer won. :)

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

See Gemara end of Hoirius, Sinai Veokeir Horim, ( Boir Sud vs. Mayon 
Hamisgabeir), and keeping in mind that Divrei Torah Aniyim Bmokom Echod 
Vashirim Bmokom Acheir, so Bekius adds even into Iyun, (that is in addition 
to Eizehu Talmid Chochom... and Bar Pachsi etc. etc.)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 11/2/99 12:26:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
csherer@netvision.net.il writes:

<< . It has to do with language, and the age 
 and level at which the Israeli starts out learning Mishna and 
 Gemara. For example, in our neighborhood, there are constantly 
 contests for even the youngest kids to learn Mishnayos by heart. 
 There are constantly competitive tests in Halacha and Tanach that 
 are given on a citywide scale >>
1. Don't poskim(and the gemora) have different ideas as to when to start 
learning gemora and mishna? Why are these halachot/reccomendations ignored?

2. Why is learning a competetive(result oriented) contest? (I know we've 
discussed this before but I feel the need to mention it anyway:-))

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

********************


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