Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 106

Thursday, November 4 1999

• Didan Netzach
• Didan Netzach
• Re: Denigration of Bekiyus?!
• RE: Mincha Gedola?
• Soloveitchik & Feinstein
• Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
• RE: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
• Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Etc.
• Native Languages
• Shal"a, Asceticism and Zecher L'churban
• Re:Limudei Chol/Ba'al HaBatim
• Re: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Etc.
• Avadim LePar-oh BeYisrael
• Re: Catch Up Learning
• Re: Tephillin Dates/Dichotomous lifestyles
• Re: Denigration of Bekiyus?!
• RE: Rambam and Asceticism

Didan Netzach assumes importance b/c it was the Lubavitcher Rebbe's 
contention that the seforim of the Rebbeim (and not just the Frierdiker 
Rebbe but the whole lineage of Rebbeim) belonged to the anashim -- i.e., all 
Lubavitchers as represented [at least in the late 1980's] by Agudas 
Chassidei Chabad.  What the nephew was doing with the books (whether 
stealing them or what not has never been verified and should be taken with a 
grain of salt).  As for why some folks who daven in a Chabad shul never hear 
of Chabad gedolim other than the Lubavitcher Rebbe, it is the same case in 
Bobov, Satmar, etc.  Heck, unless you or your kids go to Torah VaDaas, Mir, 
or Ner Yisroel on any regular basis how many folks on the list can name more 
than 1 or 2 of the Rebbeim at either of these institutions -- just by 
davenning in shuls with alumni.

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Didan Netzach also assumed significance b/c it was seen as a segula of the 
coming redemption when secular courts agree with the wishes of torah law.

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On 3 Nov 99, at 20:02, Micha Berger wrote:

> In v4n97, Gil Student <gil.student@citicorp.com> writes:
> :    I think that you are now referring to those who are not iluyim.  Avira 
> :    de'ara machkim - I'm not disagreeing with that.  The lack of 
> :    distractions from learning such as secular studies, TVs, and movies 
> :    also have a lot to do with their success in learning.
> 
> There's also a far simpler issue -- American kids know less Hebrew. Despite
> all the differences between modern and biblical Hebrew, the amount of time
> an Israeli kid spends learning simple peirush hamilim can't compare to the
> amount of time my kids require. Anyone watching the Chidon Tanach can see the
> difference between someone who speaks almost the language, and we who spend
> much of our time learning the words and grammar of the text first.

Thanks Micha. I thought everyone understood that's what I was 
referring to. 

Kids here can read Tanach like a story book at a very early age 
(usually by the end of first grade). They can sit with a Kehati and 
understand Mishnayos by themselves by the time they're 9 or 10. 
Pure language issues.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Could be, at least in Yerushalayim. Or maybe people just get
> home earlier here. But I do miss the ease of finding a minyan in the
> office building across the street that I had in Manhattan.
>

Where are you in Jerusalem? Most business areas (and large businesses) I
know of here have Mincha Gedola minyanim, quite often with a 5-minute
Mishnah Yomit.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

Akiva Miller writes

<<
This part of the family tree begins with Rav Yitzchak Yechiel, the Rav of
Karelitz. As we will see, he is Rav Moshe Feinstein's grandfather, and he
is Rav Joseph Soloveitchik's great-grandfather.

One of Rav Yitzchak Yechiel's daughters married Rav Dovid Feinstein, the
Rav of Usda and Starabin. Another daughter married Rav Eliyohu Feinstein,
Rav of Pruzhna. These brothers-in-law had the same last name, but were
otherwise related only through their wives.

Rav Dovid Feinstein's son is Rav Moshe Feinstein. One of Rav Eliyahu
Feinstein's daughters (i.e., one of Rav Moshe's first-cousins) married
Rav Moshe Soloveitchik; their son is Rav Joseph B. Soloveitchik. (To my
thinking, that makes Rav Moshe and The Rav "first cousins once removed",
but others define these terms differently.) >>

Thanks,
How does Rav Michel feinstein fit into this picture. I was told he was
related to the Soloveitchik's twice, once through a blood relation
and once through his daughter's marriage.

Eli Turkel

--- Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> > In a message dated 11/3/99 7:26:19 PM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> > micha@aishdas.org writes:
> > 
> > << He compared the pure study-for-
> >  myself-only kollel to RSBY's cave. FWIW, after
> seeing the speech,
> > it was
> >  clear to me that he meant it as a positive
> alternative, but a
> > different
> >  derech than the one he wanted for RIETS. The
> choice of word was
> > certainly
> >  ill advised, as we know how it was taken in other
> quarters. >>
> > 
> > I always assumed that those who attacked R Lamm on
> this had not
> > read or heard 
> > the speech - but somewhere in the chain it seems
> that someone
> > knowingly took 
> > it out of context.  I wonder if the technical laws
> of lashon hara
> > apply to a 
> > correct quote taken out of context.
> 
> I think that this would be motzi shem ra.  I.e.,
> reporting that R.
> Lamm said "caveman" by itself is much more negative
> than reporting
> that he said "this is the position of those who live
> in R Shimon Bar
> Yochai's cave."
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe


I'm not so sure about all this "out of context"
apologetics for R. Svei.  Because if R. Svei really
was misinformed about the intent of the statement then
HE would have made some sort of apology by now, and
that would have made big news, and would have been a
major positive development.  I believe instead that R.
Svei still stands by what he said, and probabaly still
feels that that Dr. Lamm is a Soneh HaShem.

HM

=====

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Rebbe Nachman teaches that one should not get involved in arguments between
Gedolim...

Akiva



===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In v4#100, HM wrote:

>Certainly, modest lifestyles are
>not necessairly socialistic.  I merely wanted to point
>out that if you follow this type of logic to it's
>conclusion you could end up with a socialistic
>society, as you even pointed this out in a later part
>of this post, which I have deleted in the interest of
>brevity..

Actually, that's not what I said in the part of my post that you
deleted. Rather, I said that Torah principles relating to the proper
deployment of our material resources have wealth-redistributive
consequences, but not because those principles are socialistic.
My point is that certain effects of Torah may be similar to certain
effects of, l'havdil e"h, socialism, although Torah and socialism
differ markedly in many respects, including their other
effects, motivations, goals, means, etc., etc. We may judge
certain limited aspects of socialism as good or beneficial
because of their similarity to Torah (even as we reject
socialism itself), but we may never question any aspect
of Torah because it happens to be similar in some respect
to some aspect of socialism.

Kol tuv,
David

R' Micha Berger wrote: <<< American kids know less Hebrew. Despite all
the differences between modern and biblical Hebrew, the amount of time an
Israeli kid spends learning simple peirush hamilim can't compare to the
amount of time my kids require. Anyone watching the Chidon Tanach can see
the difference between someone who speaks almost the language, and we who
spend much of our time learning the words and grammar of the text first.
>>>

Like so many other things in life, this too is a double-edged sword. I
clearly remember when I was at Ohr Somayach in Yerushalayim, many of the
Israelis were jealous of the Americans' abilities in learning Rambam. The
Rambam's style in Mishneh Torah, they said, was so lucid that it was
easier than reading a newspaper. It was difficult for them to avoid
skimming the material, and they often missed the fine nuances which were
picked up by the foreigners who had to struggle over each word.

I think the same point may be made, to a lesser extent, about many other
seforim as well. Yet this does not in any way contradict the point that
Hebrew as one's native language certainly does give one a head start.

Akiva Miller

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In v4#99, Moshe Feldman quotes me and states:

>> The Shal"a doesn't say that any pleasurable experience is a hesech
>> hada'as in the anticipation of the g'ula, but that material
>> over-indulgence
>> (specifically building mansion-like houses in galus) is a hesech
>> hada'as in
>> the anticipation of the g'ula. If you were to read the statement of
>> the Shal"a
>> in context I think you would agree that, even if the author had
>> ascetic
>> tendencies,
>> this particular statement isn't derived from them.

>There are two ways to understand the Shal"a (as you quote him; I
>don't have the Shal"a): (1) material over-indulgence is hesech
>hada'at; (2) building mansion-like houses (a point not present in
>your original posting) in galut is hesech hada'at.

>Certainly #2 is not related to the issue of asceticism, since it can
>simply mean that if a person truly had emunah that ol galut could be
>lifted at any time, he wouldn't build a mansion in chu"l (personally,
I rent :-)  ).

>However #1 would seem related to an ascetic perspective. ...

I agree that the passage I cited from the end of M'seches Suka
in Shnay Luchos Habris, when read in isolation, is open to more
than one interpretation (though, even in that limited context,
I think something like your #1 is the better reading).
When read in cunjunction with other relevant passages
passages in Shal"a, however, especially portions of the
Ner Mitzvah section of M'seches Ta'anis, it is fairly clear
that something closer to #1 is correct, except that its based on
Shal"a's understanding of the statements and requirements in
sha"s regarding remembering the churban, rather than on some
extraneous "ascetic perspective."

Kol tuv,
David

DMI wrote:
<Also, one large problem with this type of analogy is that it
reinforces the
stereotype of men having to choose to be either ba'alei batim (which
begins to connote someone who pays for learning but isn't capable of
doing much of it) or kollelite.>

I agree with you completely.  This dichotomy is not beneficial, and the
sterotype can be inaccurate and harmful- both to the sterotyped and the
sterotyper.  When I was in yeshiva R. Lichtenstein once said to us that
"just because you become a ba'al habayis, you don't have to become ba'al
batish."

Sincerely, 

David Eisenman

--- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:
> In v4#100, HM wrote:
> 
> >Certainly, modest lifestyles are
> >not necessairly socialistic.  I merely wanted to
> point
> >out that if you follow this type of logic to it's
> >conclusion you could end up with a socialistic
> >society, as you even pointed this out in a later
> part
> >of this post, which I have deleted in the interest
> of
> >brevity..
> 
> Actually, that's not what I said in the part of my
> post that you
> deleted. Rather, I said that Torah principles
> relating to the proper
> deployment of our material resources have
> wealth-redistributive
> consequences, but not because those principles are
> socialistic.
> My point is that certain effects of Torah may be
> similar to certain
> effects of, l'havdil e"h, socialism, although Torah
> and socialism
> differ markedly in many respects, including their
> other
> effects, motivations, goals, means, etc., etc. We
> may judge
> certain limited aspects of socialism as good or
> beneficial
> because of their similarity to Torah (even as we
> reject
> socialism itself), but we may never question any
> aspect
> of Torah because it happens to be similar in some
> respect
> to some aspect of socialism.

I agree. The Torah is absolute and to the extent that
other philosophies coincide in various of their parts
is to the extent that we should support them, whether
they be capitalist or communist.

Also, I never meant to imply that moderation is not a
good thing. On the contrary, as many have pointed out,
there is ample evidence in Halacha that it is.  My
point is simply that we have to be careful about
defining it for other people.  We should only define
it for ourselves, honestly and without prejudice.  The
best way for anyone to learn moderation is to see our
role models practicing it: 

 How did R. Yaakov lead his life.

 What was R. Aron's home like.
 
 What kind of car did R.JBS have.

 What did R. Moshe spend his money on.

 What kind of wedding did the did the Vizhnittzer
Rebbe make for his grandson.

This is what we should point to when trying to define
moderation, not someone else's big wedding.  That is
his buisness and not ours to judge.

HM

=====

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Rabbayem!!
Please don't be shocked by the subject line.
In Ex:22:20, we learn the mitzvah of veger lo toneh.
There are many sugiot in shas, and scores of piskai halacha on the subject.
Some of the most famous are in the mechilta of nezikim (perek 18).and the
sugya in BM (58:b)

The truth is that there are  THOUSANDS of individuals at this very
moment who are enslaved....not in Sudan or Indonesia..but in Yerushalayim
and Benai Brak!!!!
yes...they are individuals, whose sole crime was to come to the Holy
Land,,...to work...to support their families...
When they arrived in the country..they became indentured servants...their
passports were confiscated from them...their homes in the holy land are in
rat and lice infested sweltering rusted shipping crates..they are forced to
work LONG hours in dangerous jobs...working in freshly pesticide/fungicide
sprayed agricultural fields....on un-inspected  scaffolding on construction
sites...
when they try to "escape' from their slave -masters (a.k.a. non-union
manpower agencies)..and try to find work washing floors in yeshivas and
haredi super markets, or washing dishes graveyard shifts (after midnight) in
hassaneh/bar mitzvah halls...they become in Israel in 1999 ILLEGAL human
beings !!...they are
rounded up...their belongings confiscated...they are detained...and
incarcerated in prisons!!!

The inyan of Hilul hashem compounds the problem. There was a lot of negative
press towards the frum world in Israel recently, when the owner of the
largest Haredi super market in Benai Brak was "featured" in articles for a
very clever ma'asseh that he did.
He "hired"  "geyrim" to work in the super market during the big pre-pesach
shopping rush. At the end of the "rush"..he fired the workers. He did not
pay them..when the workers demanded money..he claimed that he did not know
them, they had no contract, and they were "illegal", in the country, because
they had "escaped" from their "slave-master" manpower agency (who by law
have sole"possession" over the individuals)  who compromised their lives and
well being by placing them in a dangerous working situation.

He then reported the workers to the police, who rounded up the 'illegals"
and put them in prison.

He got a lot of ha'na'ah form the service that they provided in keeping the
supermarket clean and the shelves stacked. A few haredi families that I met,
refused to make Kiddush on the wine that they bought in the store, on the
basis of lulav gazul, and mitzvah shebah al yedei aveirah.

Please Raybeyim!!!...
Help us out..
join us on Tuesday 1 Kislev November 9 1999   at 18:00 where we will discuss
the meaning of the pasuk:  And a Stranger, you shall not wrong, neither
shall you oppress him, for you yourself were strangers in the land of Egypt
(Exodus 22:20)

There will be a conference called Chained, Cheated, Incarcerated and
Deported: Slaves to Pharaohs in Israel
A symposium on the plight of the Individuals who came to seek livelihood in
the
Holy Land.
The conference is in DIRE need of Rabayim to come, and to interject some
divrei torah on the subject!!
Some of the papers that will be presented are:
Workers from Foreign lands, Manpower agencies, and the Indentured Servant
Market in Israel; .
Insecurity and Dependency; The plight of the indentured servant from
restaurant kitchen to prison: Illegal Humans: Why must they be detained and
incarcerated?; Foreign Workers in Israel: Indentured servitude or outright
slavery. Foreign Workers in Israel; Is there another way?
The conference will be held at:
Gillman Building,  Room 281, Tel Aviv University Campus.

Even if you can't come you can help out..
simply send me whatever maamarim, piskei halachot, shaylot/teshuvot, that
you may have, or have written on the subject. Ma'are Mikamot would also be
appreciated.
We need them in both Hebrew and English, so we can distribute them,

for more information (we need lot's of volunteers..especially to translate
responsa
from Hebrew to English and vice versa and to edit translated materials)
kindly contact me.

chaim
integrity@technologist.com

I also said that I did not think that 2-
> 3 hours a day of secular studies (and I would add, at a time of day
> that is not, for example, 9:00 A.M. - 12 Noon) (Carl Sherer)

May I ask-  where?  Sounds like a nice system.
Does your son complain of long learning day? Does he have time for physical
exercise?  I'm curious.
My eighth grader goes from 8.30 am to 6.10 pm-  almost all limudei kodesh.
His little leisure time is devoted to amateur carpentry and care of his
pigeons.  He goes to shul before cheder, as all boys do here from 7grade.
We started a small frum boy scouts group over here-  (my 6th and 8th graders
are enthusiastic) but it's difficult to keep up, both because of time
constraints of the leaders and the boys.
Mrs. G.A.

Subject: Re: Tephillin Dates/Dichotomous lifestyles


> Mrs. GA writes:
> <By the way-  how do people feel when they finish an evening's
> entertainment
> consisting of a movie or book which is far away from Torah hashkafah-
> then
> it comes time to say Krias Shma al a mita.  Do people feel a
> disturbing
> dissonance-  and if not, why not?>
>
> You seem to be implying an analogy between the tephillin date concept
> and your situation of saying kris shma after, say, reading a book before
> going to sleep.  I do not think this latter represents any kind of
> dichotomy, certainly not one related to tephillin dates.
> One can read Ayn Rand, who by all accounts propounds a non-Torahdik
> philosophy, and come away with a strengthened understanding of why
> personal achievement is not inconsistent with gemilus chasadim; one can
> read DH Lawrence and come away with an understanding of how
> dysfunctional relationships can arise and perpetuate, and use this to
> improve the relationships in one's own life and your sensitivity to
> mitzvos bein adam l'chaveiro

The analogy was intended, but in no way meant to be exactly equivalent in
degree, or in manner of issur.
I agree that much can be gained from some secular literature and
entertainment- values that are consonant with Torah hashkafah.  (I use Jane
Austen & similar with my teenage daughter). This is why I stated
specifically an entertainment FAR AWAY from Torah hashkafah.    respects-
Mrs. G.A.

Micha wrote:
<<There's also a far simpler issue -- American kids know less Hebrew.
Despite
all the differences between modern and biblical Hebrew, the amount of
time
an Israeli kid spends learning simple peirush hamilim can't compare to
the
amount of time my kids require. >>

This, of course, is true, but I think one must distinguish between
iluyim and gedolim.  There are plenty of iluyim who will never be
gedolim, and there may even be gedolim who were not iluyim.  The traits
required of a gadol are not simply those of knowledge and interpretive
ability. There are many personal characteristics- sympathy, empathy,
chesed, ahavas yisrael...- that go into making a gadol b'torah who can
be a social leader.  Although Bnei E"Y usually have the upper hand on
language and perhaps the educational head start, it is completely
conceivable (especially given some of the recent opinions posted on the
list about tolerance and the like in E"Y and CHU"L) that the other
elements of gadlus might be better fostered in CHU"L.

Respectfully, 

David Eisenman

From: david.nadoff@bfkpn.com

> I chap. 3, halacha 1 of Hilchos Dayos, Rambam rejects 
> "extreme" escetic
> practices such as regular fasting and sigufim. I always took 
> this to establish
> that Rambam is a non-ascetic. If I understand your approach, 
> however, that
> doesn't necessarily follow. He may nevertheless have ascetic 
> tendencies
> that are not manifest in such extreme ways, but that show up 
> in his general
> approach to pleasure. I.e., if he is not an ascetic in the 
> strong sense, he may
> still be an escetic in the weak sense.
> 
> In halacha 2 of the same chapter, Rambam states the principle 
> that all of our
> intentions and actions must be directed to y'dias hashem. As 
> applications of
> this principle, he says we should work to provide for our 
> basic needs, not for
> wealth, we should eat only to achieve/maintain health and we 
> should have sex
> only to procreate and relieve a bodily necessity ("k'mo 
> derech harefua").
> 
> Having concluded from halacha 1 that Rambam was a 
> non-ascetic, I always took
> halacha 2 as just an expression of Torah values, not of some 
> ascetic tendencies
> that might not be derived from Torah. 

Wait a minute.  Who said that ascetic tendencies do not derive from Torah?
(Maybe because you have this association you are fighting me so much on this
point.)  On the contrary.  I wouldn't be surprised if *most* of the Rishonim
has ascetic tendencies (or at least the view that pleasure has no intrinsic
importance).  I believe that one may serve Hashem both through asceticism
and non-ascetism (and anything in between).

> On your approach, 
> however, Rambam may,
> notwithstanding halacha 1, be an ascetic in the weak sense. 
> In that case his
> "pleasure-curbing statement" (to use your term) in halacha 2 
> would just be an
> expression of ascetic tendencies and, as such, "will resonate 
> less with members
> of our generation" (again, to use your phrase). According to 
> what you learned
> from Rabbi Neuberger in choson class, one might even conclude 
> that halacha
> 2 is "not appropriate in today's times."
> 
> In other words, we embrace the pleasure affirming statement 
> of halacha 1 as
> an expression of genuine Torah, 

Halacha 1 was not pleasure-affirming.  It merely states that one should not
engage in extreme pleasure-denying practices.  The Rambam in these halachot
does not give any reason to have pleasure other than if it leads to health
or the ability to serve Hashem in other ways.  For the Rambam, pleasure is
intrinsically meaningless.  To the extent that it has no side benefits it
most probably should be avoided since the time spent in pleasurable activity
is time not engaged in Avodat Hashem.

Contrast this with Chasidism which believes that one may serve Hashem by
having pleasure.  So long as one makes the effort to associate pleasure with
the ultimate Giver of pleasure, pleasure has intrinsic meaning.  While the
Rambam sees sex as merely serving the goals of procreation and relieving a
bodily necessity, one could view sex as having intrinsic importance--to
appreciate Hashem's great gift, especially as it is entwined the desire to
become of one flesh with one's wife.  Sexually pleasuring one another is a
great ma'aseh chesed as well.  (Remember Rav Dessler in Kuntrus Hachesed who
says that *giving* pleasure causes one to love another.)

> even as we effectively 
> discard the pleasure-
> curbing statement of halacha 2 as an expression of ascetic 
> tendencies that are
> no longer valid.
> 
> Am I understanding you correctly?
> 
> When it comes to a ga'on hadoros like Rambam or Shal"a, I am 
> very much inclined to ascribe whatever tendencies I find 
> expressed in his work to his
> profound understanding and sweeping synthesis of his vast 
> Torah knowledge,
> rather than to some non-Torah source that he, wittingly or 
> unwittingly, imported
> into Torah. 

Again, ascetic tendencies have a lot of basis in Torah.  So does the concept
of appreciating pleasure (e.g., a person is "atid letain et hadin" for every
pleasure that he had the opportunity to experience and did not).  It is
therefore perfectly legitimate to rate the Rambam/Shal"a on the
pleasure-denying vs. pleasure-affirming scale and to investigate whether a
given statement derives from this issue.  (This is no different than the
classical yeshivish chakirah; both tz'dadim will have roots in
gemara/rishonim and there will be nafka minot l'halacha.)

<snip>
> [I] do not share
> the approach you express in v4#99:
> 
> >BTW, after reading Dr. Chaim Soloveitchik's article regarding R'
> >Yehuda Hachasid, I tend to be very cautious before accepting any
> >recommendation/halacha from R' Yehuda Hachasid (since Dr. S wrote
> >that RYH had certain philosophical motivations which permeated his
> >entire work and are not hashkafically accepted today).
> 
> I think Sefer Chasidim should be studied as a pure Torah 
> work, preferably
> with the commentaries of Chida and R' Reuven Margolios, and 
> the Ya'alzu
> Chasidim of R' Eliezer Papo (author of Peleh Yo'etz). 

I read Dr. S's article some years ago, but as I recall he brings convincing
evidence that R. Yehudah Hachasid believed that in addition to the mesorah
of chazal as to what Hashem wants of us, there are other--new--requirements
that we must discover (will someone who read the article more recently
please elaborate?) .  He set about discovering these new requirements.  In
his time, he was rejected by the rishonim; many of the ba'alei Hatosfot
actually made fun of him and his talmidim.  Only a number of generations
after his death did his work become popular, after it was forgotten that the
work was motivated by the concept of new requirements.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

*********************


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