Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 108

Thursday, November 4 1999

• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• Rambam and Asceticism
• Re: kidra chaysa
• Re: Tzni'us in Material Acquisutions
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• Nuclear Proliferation; Conspicuous Consumption; Suggestion
• Avodah & pleasure
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• Re: Avodah V4 #99 and Hm's scurrilous comment about Chabad-Lubavitch
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• blurring distinctions
• Re: Nuclear Proliferation; Conspicuous Consumption; Suggestion
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• Bekius/B'Iyun - CD ROM = Red Herring
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• HECHSHER ON MORE THAN THE FOOD
• Re: Bekius/B'Iyun - CD ROM = Red Herring
• Re: Bekius/B'Iyun - CD ROM = Red Herring
• Bekius/B'Iyun - CD ROM = Red Herring
• Re: Catch Up Learning
• Re: Nuclear Proliferation; Conspicuous Consumption; Suggestion
• Re: Bios (was: kidra chaysa)

True :-).

Let me clarify, however, my query.

The Piasaczner has a very instructive discussion, in the Mavo ha'She'arim,
of the difference between the pre-Besht mekkubalim and the Chassidic
approach, and how sigufim and the like are no longer necessary in the same
manner. Some of this is in my Forks essay on the aishsdas website.

But I do not know of Chassidim that pushed "pleasure". Certainly not in the
realm of OC 240, and not even in inyanei achila, except in the context of a
tisch etc.

While we are on the topic, leaping to a related thread, I was most amused by
R' Lamm's contention that his model of  TUM was a Chassidic one. Chassidim
themselves would be abhorred by the comparison. They would find it analagous
to arguing that one should serve bacon at a tisch.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <Yzkd@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Rambam and Asceticism


> In a message dated 11/4/99 2:33:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:
>
> > Which Chasidim might those be?
>
> Chasidei Umois Ho'olom :-)
>
> Kol Tuv
>
> Yitzchok Zirkind
>

I don't know which Chassidim said this but....

R. Yosef Weiss, my rebbe for Yoreh Deio, taught us sepcifically that his 
hashkofo re: food was to davka enjoy things that are mutar.  EG, one should 
davka seek the widest variety of taste and exsperience with the realm of what 
HKBH gave us to enjoy.

OTOH, R. Weiss,  tended to be machmir, IMHO.  I assumed his bckground (coming 
from "Hungary") indicatd a Chassidishe hashkofo, but that is admittedly an 
extrapolation.

How can one be so machmir and yet opposed to ascetism?  How did R. Weiss address
kadesh atzmecho be'mutar loch? 

I have no quick answer.  Here is my spin (which is very loosely based upon some 
of his shitos re: chumros):


If you look at the ikkar din torah as opposed to how we actually practice 
kashrus, you will see that given all the derabbonons and chumros we have 
already, in effect been mekadesh ourselves bemutor loch! Now, to go even further
would be to go TOO far, or perhaps mechezei keyuhero.  IOW dayenu with all the 
denials and chumros, just enjoy what's left! 

Extrapolate this to marital relations...
Besides din Torah, we have elminated numerous mutrar days a month, we have 
ossured a lot beyond din Torah, we have eliminated polygamy, etc.  In fact if 
you look at the history of what is allowed to be done bizman hazeh, you will see
an incredice amount of harchokos.

W/O reppaling any of them, wouldn't it make sense to enjoy what's left?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Mark Feldman:
> Contrast this with Chasidism which believes that one may serve Hashem by > 
having pleasure. <<

Quoted from RYHHenkin letter in Avodah 4#79:
> An electric hot plate which is uniformly heated... <
A small note (written on Oct. 29th -- I'm in the midst of catching up to
the slew of recent digests, and I don't believe anyone else posted re this
minor point): not all electric hot plates are uniformly heated -- be aware
of the ones with a "hot spot."

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

In Avodah 4#82, CSherer wrote:
> The previous Gerrer Rebbe had a very simple line. Whatever money
you spent on a Simcha, you had to donate an equivalent amount to
Tzedaka.  I'm not necessarily advocating that approach, but it does give
food
for thought. <
More food for thought: dedicating more resources to matonos l'evyonim than
to mishloach monos on a day when our physical salvation is hyped.  Of
course, one reason could be the need for everyone in the community,
including evyonim, to imbibe 'yayin' and contemplate 'soad'....

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Feldman, Mark <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
> 
> > Contrast this with Chasidism which believes that one may serve
> Hashem by
> > having pleasure.  So long as one makes the effort to associate
> pleasure
> with
> > the ultimate Giver of pleasure, pleasure has intrinsic meaning. 
> While the
> > Rambam sees sex as merely serving the goals of procreation and
> relieving a
> > bodily necessity, one could view sex as having intrinsic
> importance--to
> > appreciate Hashem's great gift, especially as it is entwined the
> desire to
> > become of one flesh with one's wife.  Sexually pleasuring one
> another is a
> > great ma'aseh chesed as well.  (Remember Rav Dessler in Kuntrus
> Hachesed
> who
> > says that *giving* pleasure causes one to love another.)
> >
> 
> Which Chasidim might those be?

1.  The chasidic part is the first two sentences I wrote (i.e., not
the stuff about sex).  I am no expert in chasidut, though as a fan of
R. SY Zevin's Latorah v'lamoadim (always a handy dvar torah) I have
seen some elements of this philosophy embodied in his divrei torah. 
(I understand that he was influenced by chasidut.)  I thought it was
standard chassidic thought that making a bracha over food elevates
the pleasure experienced in eating the food.  Am I mistaken?

2.  The sexual stuff is an expansion of this theme (I did not
attribute it to chasidut).  Rabbi Boteach (whose book "Kosher Sex" is
much tamer than the book reviews would have you believe; I gave it a
relatively yeshivish talmid chacham who--after some prodding--read it
and said that he was surprised at the brouhaha) develops the idea in
his book and on his website.  (BTW this is not an endorsement of R.
Boteach's style.)  Is there anything in my two sentences on sexuality
which you consider incorrect?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Just a little catch-up.  I often wonder how so many people have so much time
for such long postings when I can barely keep up with reading Avodah.
Anyway...

Nuclear Proliferation - Time was mentioned as a factor for the so-called
lack of Frum "activism".  I, and probably most of the other males on this
list. spend approx. 1.5 hours a day davenning.  I would like to suggest that
this is our activism and that it brings more positive energy into the world,
counterbalancing many more negative proliferations, that does most of the
sign waving, letter writing etc.

Conspicuous Consumption - Not having been given the Nisayon (if someone
doesn't like my transliteration - too bad) of wealth I can only speak from
the outside.  While I don't advocate taking away anyone's Jaguar I still
find it obscene when I attend lavish weddings and think of all the other
causes that that money could go to.  It's hard to justify spending a half a
million on a wedding, no matter how big a Ba'al T'zadaka the spender is,
when there are children going to bed hungry, Yeshiva payrolls not being met
etc.

Suggestion - I am often saddened by the labeling, putting down, and
defensiveness that goes on this list as members attempt to promote their
various positions.  I propose that we designate a day as Dan L'caf Z'chus
Day.  (Shlomo Carlebach's Yortzeit would have been good but we just missed
it.) On that day our most prolific writers will pick a topic that they love
to hate (Kollel, Secular education, Right Wing, Left Wing, Lubavitch, Rav
Shach, whatever) and write an impassioned statement defending/promoting that
topic. (I guess some people might need to write more than one).  Maybe we
could then all learn to respect one another a bit more and have a greater
understanding of Aylu V'Aylu and Shiveem Panim LaTorah.

Gad Frenkel

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> From: Feldman, Mark <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
 
> > Contrast this with Chasidism which believes that one may serve Hashem by
> > having pleasure.  So long as one makes the effort to associate pleasure
> with
> > the ultimate Giver of pleasure, pleasure has intrinsic meaning.  While the
....
> > become of one flesh with one's wife.  Sexually pleasuring one another is a
> > great ma'aseh chesed as well.  (Remember Rav Dessler in Kuntrus Hachesed
> > who says that *giving* pleasure causes one to love another.)
 
> Which Chasidim might those be?

to which Yitzchok Zirkind replies:
 
> Chasidei Umois Ho'olom :-)

Seems to me I've seen material on this serving H' through having pleasure
in Tzavaas Harivash and in Shivchei haBesht, neither of which is here at
the office for verification.  Also, it has been stated here (and elsewhere)
that R' Dessler was heavily influenced by a Chabadnik and Chabad ideas.

So R' Zirkind's remark is rather telling, about the development of 
Chasidic ideas since the Besh"t.

       Jonathan Baker     |  Marches-wan, marches-two,
       jjbaker@panix.com  |  March the months all through and through

     >>>>Contrast this with Chasidism which believes that one may serve 
     Hashem by having pleasure.>>>>
     
     >>Which Chasidim might those be?>>
     
     He certainly isn't Chasidish but the Alter of Slabodka discusses at 
     length that all avodah has to be besimcha, even teshuva [and not just 
     the Magid Mishneh at the end of hilchos sukkah's type of simchah].  
     See Or HaTzafun vol II, pp. 118-131.
     
     I don't know much about Chasidus but didn't R. Nachman from Bretslav 
     say "mitzvah gedolah lihyos besimcha tamid."

Re: Hm's scurrilous comment: 
"Perhaps this explains why there are no Gedolim in Lubavitch today"

This is completely libelous propoganda: Maybe because of the chassidic
doctrine of the virtue of Bittul Lubavitchers are disinclined to play the
"I'm a Gadol" trumpet but there are many Gedolei Torah in Lubavitch who's
Beliius, Amkus, and Charifus match those of ANY Gadol in the world today

Here are some names (in no particular order). Let those who are truly
qualified to do so judge for themselves. They will find these Gedolim
very approachable.

This is only a partial list.

The Rosh Yeshivah of Yeshivas Ohr Elchanan Chabad in LA, Rabbi Ezra
Schochet
 
The RAV OF BNEI BRAK, Harav Moshe Landa
 Mashgiach in Yeshivas Tomchei Temimim Lubavitch "770" Harav Yisroel
Labkovsky, 
A true "Baki bekol Chadrei Torah"
 
Rosh Yeshivah of the Yeshivah Gedolah of New Haven, Harav Yosef Yitzchak
Kalmonson

Rosh Yeshivah of the Yeshivah Gedolah of Greater Miami, Harav Leibel
Shapiro
 
The Rosh Yeshivah of Yeshivas Tomchei Temimim Kefar Chabad Harav Yaakov
Katz
 
The Mashpiah of Yeshivas Tomchei Temimim Morristown, Harav Elimelech
Tzveibel

The Rosh Yeshivah of Yeshivas Tomchei Temimim Kiryat Gat, Harav Mosheh
Havlin

The Rosh Yeshivah of Yeshivas Ohelei Torah, Brooklyn, Harav Yisroel
Freidman

The Rosh Yeshivah of Yeshiva Gedolah of London, Harav Yitzchak Meir Hertz

Harav Yoel Kahn, Brooklyn

Harabanim Meir (father) and Herschel (son) Greenberg of Buffalo, New York

The Rosh Yeshivah of Yeshivas Tomchei Temimim Migdal Ha'emek, Harav
Yitzchak Goldberg

The Rosh yeshivah of Yeshivas Hadar Hatorah, Rabbi Yaakov Goldberg

Vehaemes Yoreh Darko,

Shlomo Dov Yaffe





  

In a message dated 11/4/99 2:46:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< 
 While we are on the topic, leaping to a related thread, I was most amused by
 R' Lamm's contention that his model of  TUM was a Chassidic one. Chassidim
 themselves would be abhorred by the comparison. They would find it analagous
 to arguing that one should serve bacon at a tisch.
 
 Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer >>
Perhaps a bit of hyperbole - or do Chassidim feel that we TUM's are avaryanim 
or misaya lovrei aveira?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

How's this for an example of the insidious blurring of the distinction
between pshat and drush which plagues our generation's approach to
Torah.  In his "Drasha Parshas Chayai Sora" which is sent out under the
auspices of Project Genesis, Rabbi Mordechai Kamenetzky offers us the
following (note the use of QUOTATION MARKS):
"Avraham turned to Eliezer, the elder of his household, who ruled over
all
his possessions," and asked him to go find a wife for Yitzchak (Genesis
24:2).

We ought to be less fuzzy-headed about our Torah.

Moshe Nugiel

In a message dated 11/4/99 3:15:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
garry.j.frenkel@ssa.gov writes:

<< 
 Nuclear Proliferation - Time was mentioned as a factor for the so-called
 lack of Frum "activism".  I, and probably most of the other males on this
 list. spend approx. 1.5 hours a day davenning.  I would like to suggest that
 this is our activism and that it brings more positive energy into the world,
 counterbalancing many more negative proliferations, that does most of the
 sign waving, letter writing etc. >>

It's an interesting issue..  Keep in mind though that the Yerushalmi defines 
a chasid shoteh as one who sees a baby drowning and stops to take his tfillin 
off before saving him.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" wrote:
> But I do not know of Chassidim that pushed "pleasure". 

Who said anything about "pushing" pleasure?  Certainly the
pleasure-seeking society that is America is foreign to Yahadut.  But
the question under discussion is whether pleasure which is not
utilitarian (health-related, relaxation, etc.) is considered part of
Avodat Hashem when done with the right intent and in the appropriate
circumstances.  Is the once a week fulfillment of OC 240 merely a
concession to the yetzer hara when your wife is past menopause?

What I would appreciate is a discussion by those familiar with
Chasidut of the ways one can elevate one's gashmiyut.  Making a
bracha over food is the classic case, but how do you deal with the
pleasures that have been added in the modern era (movies, ping pong,
amusement parks, etc.).  

Also, what does Chasidut say about the experience of making a bracha
on food?  If one eats a two-hour multi-course meal and makes a bracha
at the beginning and at the end, what machshavot must one have during
the two hours in order that the experience is elevated to ruchniyut?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

The CD-ROM issue is, I think, irrelevant to a discussion about the merits of 
Bekius/B'Iyun. The purpose of learning Bekius, for the vast majority of 
lomdim, is to learn as much of Kol haTorah Kulah as possible. The fact that 
such a person could pull up the information from a CD-ROM (or look it up on 
WebShas) is not a Kiyum in veShinantam, SheYihyu Divrei Torah Michudadin 
beFicha.

The only one for whom the CD-ROM might mitigate the need for Bekius is 
someone who is looking to apply Bekius, as in giving a Shiur, or answering a 
Shaalah (or learning B'Iyun, as has already been pointed out!). For the rest 
of the population,  CD-ROM Lo Maaleh veLo Morid.

Mordechai Torczyner
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
Congregation Ohave Shalom, Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave

Moshe Feldman wrote:


> Also, what does Chasidut say about the experience of making a bracha
> on food?  If one eats a two-hour multi-course meal and makes a bracha
> at the beginning and at the end, what machshavot must one have during
> the two hours in order that the experience is elevated to ruchniyut?


Oh boy. I don't have the Ben Ish Hai with me at the moment, so I can't
quote exactly, but he goes into much detail regarding the kavanot we
should have while eating. So while I can't speak for Hasidut, the
mekuballim definitely have something to say. I'll (b'li neder) bring the
sefer with me tomorrow if you want quotes.


---sam

in the Jewish Week today, story of OU not allowing a dec 31 shabbat program
at a NYC restaurant as not being in the spirit....

--- Pawshas@aol.com wrote:
> The CD-ROM issue is, I think, irrelevant to a discussion about the
> merits of 
> Bekius/B'Iyun. The purpose of learning Bekius, for the vast
> majority of 
> lomdim, is to learn as much of Kol haTorah Kulah as possible. The
> fact that 
> such a person could pull up the information from a CD-ROM (or look
> it up on 
> WebShas) is not a Kiyum in veShinantam, SheYihyu Divrei Torah
> Michudadin 
> beFicha.

If R. Y Zirkind is correct that she'yihyu... appplies just to
halachic knowledge, there is a whole lot of torah which may not be
covered by that requirement.

Why do you assume that the goal is learn as much of kol hatorah kula
as possible, if that would be accomplished on a low level?  On the
contrary, I would assert that once one has bekiut in the concepts in
Shas the goal is understand be'iyun as much as possible.  You
conceded that a CD Rom could be useful in that regard.  Therefore,
from the point of view of learning iyun, amoraim needed much more
memorization as a precurser than we do today.

What do you think of the other extreme: I heard that Breslovers
believe that one should read through Shas even if one doesn't
understand it because one will be able to understand it in olam haba.
 (Can anyone confirm or deny this ascription to Breslovers?)

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Moshe Feldman wrote:


> What do you think of the other extreme: I heard that Breslovers
> believe that one should read through Shas even if one doesn't
> understand it because one will be able to understand it in olam haba.
>  (Can anyone confirm or deny this ascription to Breslovers?)


I haven't heard this, but something similar I heard from the son of the
author of the Sulam (pirush hazohar, can't recall his name) is that one
should read the Zohar even if you don't understand it, because your
neshama does and benefits from it.


---sam

Question: If that learning didn't stick or even if it did but was totally not 
understood, wouldn't it be like a "chamor nosei Seforim?"

Couldn't leraning for the sake of covering ground be a ruse by the Yetzer horo 
to avoid really working at learning and engagin our full faculties?

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



The CD-ROM issue is, I think, irrelevant to a discussion about the merits of 
Bekius/B'Iyun. The purpose of learning Bekius, for the vast majority of lomdim, 
is to learn as much of Kol haTorah Kulah as possible. 
<snip>

Mordechai Torczyner
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library 
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf 
Congregation Ohave Shalom, Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave

On 4 Nov 99, at 15:30, Mrs. Gila Atwood wrote:

> I also said that I did not think that 2-
> > 3 hours a day of secular studies (and I would add, at a time of day
> > that is not, for example, 9:00 A.M. - 12 Noon) (Carl Sherer)
> 
> May I ask-  where?  Sounds like a nice system.

I'd rather not post all the details to the list. I assume Akiva Atwood 
is your husband, and I already sent him all the details privately. If 
anyone else has a son for whom they are looking into ninth 
grades/Yehiva Ktanas, I will be glad to send you the details off line.

> Does your son complain of long learning day? 

MY son thrives on it. YMMV. BTW I should have clarified that 6:30 
is wake up and minyan is at 7:00 (it's a dorm school).

Does he have time for physical
> exercise?  I'm curious.

There is a basketball court and those boys who want to play ball 
can play ball. My son is not an athlete....

[Rest of letter taken off list].

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 4 Nov 99, at 15:13, Frenkel, Garry J. wrote:

> Just a little catch-up.  I often wonder how so many people have so much time
> for such long postings when I can barely keep up with reading Avodah.

Touch typing while we're on the phone :-) And lots of cut and paste 
:-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 3 Nov 99, at 10:01, TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/2/99 10:58:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:
> 
> << I often wonder if the person standing next to me in shul or at mincha at
>  work or wherever,  is a person with whom I am in the midst of a most
>  interesting conversation on the list (or maybe the person who just blew
>  me away,  figuratively speaking,  on the list).   >>
> 
> I met Moshe Feldman at a wedding talking to my old friend Eliyahu Teitz in 
> just this fashion. Avi Feldblum and I met in person for the first time when 
> we turned out to be seated together at the Bar Mitzvah Moshe Bernstein 
> recently made for his son, Michael. So, you never know......

For those of you who are in Israel, I live in Yerushalayim in Ramat 
Shlomo, and if you want to know where I daven, you can email me 
off line.

For those of you in the US, I will be there on business IY"H the 
week after next, and if someone wants to try to get together (the 
odds don't look good unless I happen to be in your neighborhood 
on Shabbos), then let me know. I expect to be (barring changes at 
the last minute) in Boca Raton, Chicago (includes Shabbos), 
Atlanta, Silver Spring (includes Shabbos), Philadelphia and 
Passaic (includes Shabbos). If you want to try to meet, you can 
email me off the list. 

And I've spoken to Moshe Feldman on the phone although we have 
never met :-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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