Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 113

Friday, November 5 1999

• Re: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Etc.
• Re: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Etc.
• Rambam and Asceticism - & Conspicous consumption
• Re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim
• Re: Rambam and asceticism
• Rambam and Asceticism - The Subthread on Chasidus
• Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• Organ Donation
• Re: Organ Donation
• Was Re: Rambam and Asceticism, Now Torah U'Madda
• Re: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Tzni'us, Etc.
• Re: Rambam and asceticism
• Salaries
• Re: Bekius
• Re: Change, variation and transmission of halacha
• Rambam and asceticism
• Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim
• Re:writing torah shebe'al peh
• Carlebach
• Re: Soloveitchik & Feinstein

--- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:
> HM wrote in v4#106:
> 
> >The best way for anyone to learn moderation is to
> see our
> >role models practicing it....This is is what we
> should
> >point to when trying to define moderation, not
> someone
> >else's big wedding. That is his buisness and not
> ours to judge.
> 
> I wish I could agree, but the number of someone
> elses with big weddings
> has given rise to some significant social problems
> in frum communities
> that are the business of all of us. What we need
> from our g'dolim are
> takonos that address the issue head on, not just
> their examples as role
> models.

I couldn't disagree more.  The last thing we need is
more takonos. It's hard enough dealing with those we
already have.  

I agree that there is a problem.  The chase for status
and acceptance always gives rise to certain
individuals spending beyond their means.  And I
further believe that this rather negative phenomenon
needs to be addressed.  But Takonos are the wrong way
to go about it.  These "victims" of the money/status
chase are products of improper chinuch.  Perhaps the
parents either consciously or unconsciously
transmitted poor values.  Perhaps their mechanchim did
not emphasize these values enough. Perhaps the
surounding culture puts pressure on weak willed
individuals.  There are many possible explanations for
that type of bnehavior.

I'm not sure how we re-educate those whose frame of
mind is ever more "conspicuous consumption" in order
to "show off" how successful one is.  But Takonos are
patently unfair to those who aren't such victims and
have the potential of causing unintended difficulties
for others.  

Ultimately the answer is Chinuch. Tznius should be
taught and Tzbius should be lived. Greater emphasis
has to be put on concepts of tznius in ALL our
behavior. As Eli Clark pointed out in his thoughtful
post on the subject, Tznius is more than just a matter
of Arayos. Tzne Haleches reffers to the entire gamut
of human behavior. When teaching about Tznius, every
mechanech at every level of education should make that
point.  But the point should also, be made to not have
kinah for someone else's wealth or lifestyle and try
to emulate it. But, they should also, be taught that
IT IS OK FOR THEM, but not neccessarily for us. If
someday one is granted by Hashem the the bracha of
great wealth then one is entitled to enjoy it.  This
should be taught at the earliest possible age and
repeated throughout ones educational experience. 

HM 


=====

__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- "Stein, Aryeh E." <aes@ll-f.com> wrote:

> 
> R' Shmuel suggested that Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshiva,
> etc. should refuse to be
> masader kiddushin if a wedding is going to be too
> ostentatious.  

That's Funny. I remember very recently R. Shmuel being
mesader kidushin at a pretty lavish wedding here in
Chicago.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

I think the Besht tapped into a very important but subtle concept.  That is what
to do about the very real nature of hano.o. wrodly pleasures, etc.

I think we can extrapoloate the Besth as follows:  Make the most you can in a 
spirtiual sense from the wordly.

If you DO attend an ostentatious Simcha, focus your thinking about Hashme's 
Divine Providence, of how bounitufl He made  the world,

W/O advocting physical pleasure, or promiting it, we can still learn to channel 
it in a positive way, in a productive way.  We can feel Hashem's hashpo'o, His 
Chesed when we realize that we are probably THE MOST affluent society in 
history!  

V'acholto, v'sovoto uveirachto .

Enjoy be satisfied and praise Hashem for that pleasure.  Some asceitcs will get 
svio really quickly, a few morsels of food will suffice.  But even if you are a 
gourmand, take that aspect and use it tosay "Wow what great food we have - 
thanks to Hashem's Chessed."

Every morning we praise hashem for providng for the raven, why can't we also 
channel energy into praising Hashem for a great smorgasbord?

I know when my kids eat with gusto, I get a certain hano'o about providing for 
them?  What would make Ovinu Sheashomyaim different?

Tachas asher lo avodto Es Hashem .. merov kol!

THE challenge to Judaims in American is our affluence our prosperity.  The trick
as I see it is that we finally have thrown off the shackles of the ghetto, we 
live like millionaires, can se STILL be Avdei Hashem?

Becoming an ascetic in our American society is IMHO a "cop out".  Aderabbo, take
the prosperity and prove to Hashem that we can STILL focus upon Torah, etc. 
despite it or becaue of it.  Demonstrate that we can still be Onu Leko v'eineinu
lekoh.

R. Yeruchim once told us, any one can be "spiritual" while fastin on YK.  
That'ss easy.  The trick is FEASTING on Erev YK lishmo!

Rich Wolpoe 





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>




Besh"t generally teaches the "salvage value" of worldly pleasures, i.e., how the
energy of the pleasure experience can be used to transcend that experience and 
propel one back to Hashem.
<snip>

Shabat Shalom,
David

Moshe Feldman wrote:
> Anybody ever try to make a special Carlebach minyan in a regular shul just
> so that the shulgoers could see what it's like?  What were the reactions?

In the past year or two, our shul president has been going to
Carlebach , and has become fond of it.  Another family moved in
that had davened there for some time, and the husband is a chazan
(in an odd, jazzy style - weird timing - or is that just jealousy
at his having a better voice than I? (8-{S} ).  So, about half
the time, our Frinite service uses Carlebach niggunim.  I tend to 
use the "traditional" nusach.  It doesn't take that much longer 
than the regular service, and people get into it, although not as
much as I'd like.

We  had a bunch of people in from Carlebach to do a demo service
one week, which was very pleasant.  People got into it, and we 
advertised it, so new people from the neighborhood came in.  But
I don't think most would go for it every week, as it is considerably
longer.

It seems to me that Carlebach is getting more popular than he was
when he was alive.  Yes, his shul was packed (it's a tiny building)
most of the time, and even more so on Simchas Torah, but you didn't
see all these "Carlebach Minyanim" sprouting up until recently.

RYZ:
>RYGB:
>>> great ma'aseh chesed as well.  (Remember Rav Dessler in Kuntrus Hachesed
>>> who says that *giving* pleasure causes one to love another.)
>>Which Chasidim might those be?
>Chasidei Umois Ho'olom :-)

Well, seeing how yesterday's "Administrivia" message seemed aimed at me
(so much for private tochacha), I went home and looked up the stuff I
was talking about yesterday.

The pursuit of physical pleasure as a form of Avodat Hashem was a 
big part of the first generation or two of Chasidim, but they pulled
back from it after a while, particularly the Baal haTanya.  They
called it "Avodah beGashmiyut".  There is a story in the Shivchei
haBesht where the Besht's wife complains that the chasidim are 
drinking up all the wine, there won't be any left for Shabbos.  The
Besht says, "Well, you go tell them to lighten up."  She goes out 
and sees the drinking Chasidim surrounded by a wall of holy fire.
So she goes and brings out the wine jugs herself. 

The idea is that one is supposed to be full of joy.  Physical pleasure
keeps you happy.

After a generation or two, the Mezritcher Maggid attached this Avodah
beGashmiyut to the Lurianic doctrine of elevating the sparks in everything
that you consume/use, but that was not the original idea.  The Baal 
haTanya (according to my Lubav officemate) strongly pulled away from 
the idea of Avodah beGashmiyut qua physical pleasure.  One manifestation
of this was the BhT's rejection of the practice of "shirayim": eating
the leftovers of the rebbe's food whereby all partake in the rebbe's
holiness through physical pleasure in eating the food.

We will ignore the accusations of physical (including sexual) excesses
attributed to the early Chasidim by their opponents.

Sources: E.J. Schochet, "The Hasidic Movement and the Gaon of Vilna",
pp. 54-60; R. Schatz-Uffenheimer, "Hasidism as Mysticism," pp. 52-57.

Indeed. Perhaps we can more accurately portray the Besht as:

"Shamelessly glorifying HKBH Who (after all) provided us with physical 
pleasures."

(not to pursue them shamelessly, rather - when indulging them properly - to 
shamelessly enjoy them as G-dly manifestations, perhaps?)

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
 This leads some to
believe mistakenly that he was shamelessly glorifying phisical pleasure.

Shabat Shalom,
David

OK, this is what happens when I follow the moderator's advice and
sit on things.  I'm a week behind on things.

Joelirich write:
>One of the atwoods wrote:

 >>> and whose tfillin did they wear - Rashi or Rabbenu Tam? If
 >>> Rashi's, then

 >> Probably Rashi's -- the important thing is that *everyone* wore the *same*
 >>t'fillin.

 >>> where did rabbenu tam get his idea from (and v.v.)

 >>From the inevitable breakdown of transmission -- you can't teach
 >>*everything* you know to your students.

>Not everyone agrees with you on this - there are opinions that there were
>different practices from time immemorial which only later were conformed.

Archeological evidence supports RJR /N/a/b/i/s/c/o.  Both Rashi & 
Rabbenu Tam tefillin have been found at Qumran (and elsewhere?)
from the time of the Tannaim.   See Schiffman's book "Reclaiming the
Dead Sea Scrolls."

Actually, there are four tefillin
layouts discussed in the Rishonim.  The Raavad and someone else
have mirror images of the Rashi (1234 in text order) and R. Tam
(1243, so the Vehayas are on the inside): (4321) and (3421),
based on a question of whether they should be in order from the
wearer's perspective or from the viewer's perspective.  There's
another opinion in the Gemara, I think, that it doesn't matter
which direction they're made as long as they're in the right order,
so we just use the Rashi/R.T. orders instead of the others, and 
that fulfills all 4 opinions in a way. (All this from my LL rabbi's
kid's Bar-M pilpul, which had been written by his grandfather.  It was
Shabbos, I couldn't take notes, sorry.)

I find it interesting that within the Orthodox community, very few people 
have filled out a living will, allowing their organs to be donated to another 
person after brain death.  This, despite the fact that Rav Moshe Tendler and 
many other respected rabbis have said that organ donation is halachically 
acceptable, since brain death is what constitutes halachic death.  In fact, 
many of these rabbis have said that not only is it halachically acceptable, 
but it is incumbent on an individual to donate his or her organs if it can 
save a human life.

I realize that there are other respected rabbis who have differing opinions 
of halachic death.  But I wonder whether the people who have not agreed to 
donate their organs after brain death are doing it for halachic reasons, or 
because they are ignorant about the fact that this is halachically mandated 
by many poskim (mind you, Rav Moshe Tendler is no liberal), or perhaps 
because there's a psychological hangup that people have about not being 
buried "whole".  I've been amazed at the amount of well-educated Orthodox 
people who are shocked that organ donation is halachically mandated by Rav 
Tendler and others.  And how others believe falsely that it might be OK to 
donate your organs to save a Jewish life but not a non-Jewish life.

We constantly talk about how Judaism is a religion that first and foremost 
puts saving a human life above everything else.  Yet I think we've been very 
short sighted in getting more Jews to agree to donate their organs after 
brain death.  What a kiddush hashem it would be if we as a Jewish community 
could save 25, 50, 100, or more lives a year through organ donation.  And 
what a wonderful unifying project it would be for the Orthodox community to 
band together with Conservative and Reform Jews on this issue.

I welcome comments from others on this important issue.


Michael Feldstein

In the US, R' Mordechai Tendler is in the minority WRT accepting brain death
as a criterion for determining death lihalachah. I therefore think it logical
that the majority of American Orthodoxy are following the majority view.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Nov-99: Shishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 64a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

----- Original Message -----
From: Feldman, Mark <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>

> Until now, I too was bothered by R. Lamm's finding a basis for Torah
> U'Maddah in Chassidism.  After all, in reality TUM as it developed did not
> look to Chassidism for inspiration.  But in answering your question I
think
> that I will answer mine as well.
>
> Chassidim certainly will look askance at the study of secular studies.  (I
> know this first-hand, as my mother is a first cousin of R. Raphael Blum,
the
> Kashauer Rov, and is very close to him as she lived in his house after the
> Holocaust.)  But their reasons for looking askance at these studies do not
> derive from a different understanding of Avodah she'begashmiut; rather
they
> derive from other attitudes (antipathy towards the Goyish world, reaction
to
> Haskalah, etc.).  The concept of Avodah She'begashmiut makes sense, and
the
> fact it was never applied to secular studies before should not stop its
> application now.
>

Chassidim (in the main) hold, as I stated in my metaphor, that Chochmos
Chitzoniyos (CC) are from the Kelipos (and not Kelipas Nogah). For R' Lamm
to use a Chassidic model he would first need to prove that CC are at least
from Kelipas Nogah, and that the nitzotzos of kedusha are not too greatly
sealed in the CC to be muttar (as opposed to assur) befor Bi'as Go'el
Tzedek.

> I note the fact that in a subsequent issue, RYGB wrote a letter to the
> editor taking issue with R. Schiller with regard to the joys of baseball,
> noting that many highschoolers are more enthralled with sports than with
> learning.  R. Schiller answered that this was an abuse but did not
undermine
> the essence of the argument that Hashem in His beneficence grants us
> pleasures.  I wonder whether RYGB was satisfied with R. Schiller's
response.
> Maybe he could write our Avodah list what he would have written in
response
> to R. Schiller.
>

I thought that R' Schiller essentially conceded.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In v4n100, David Finch <DFinchPC@aol.com> writes:
:                                                  Rabbinic Judaism is a 
: complex collection of quasi-socialistic rules restricting individualistic 
: conduct.

I heard it said that while the Torah clearly supports free enterprise,
communism could only have arisen from a person raised in a culture that calls
charity "tzedakah" (justice).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Nov-99: Shishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 64a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Not good enough.

Can't rely on a Conservative Rabbi as a primary source.

Sorry.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jonathan J. Baker <jjbaker@panix.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Rambam and asceticism


> Sources: E.J. Schochet, "The Hasidic Movement and the Gaon of Vilna",
> pp. 54-60; R. Schatz-Uffenheimer, "Hasidism as Mysticism," pp. 52-57.
> 
> 

As a long time lurker and a first time poster, two items:
1.  Regarding teacher salaries - in each school where I had an
administrative position I viewed it the principal's principle
responsibility to be an advocate - student and teacher. It is incumbent
upon the principal to educate and to continue to educate the lay leadership
and the parent body that mekhanchim/teachers are professionals and need to
be treated that way. In fact in several situations we achieved parity
between limudei kodesh and limudei hol teachers and between male and female
staff.

2.  I will be embarking for a sabbatical of study in Israel for the
remainder of the school year (battery recharging time). Leads on a one
bedroom or studio apartment in a modern orthodox neighborhood of Jerusalem
available asap are invited. Respond privately to rabbis@aol.com.

Thank you.

Shabbat Shalom

Dovid Serkin

In v4n100 Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> writes:
: 	What has been happening on a level secondary to this increase in DY, is
: an overall increase in learning.  My take is that once you get that
: person into the Bais Midrash,  be it for the shelo lishma of boasting
: about learning Daf Yomi,  he will be back,  both for other shiurim and
: for greater depth in Daf Yomi itself.

My anecdotal evidence would argue otherwise. Once someone fills all of his
learning time, and even B"H stretches that learning time, to stay up-to-date
with DY, he no longer has the time for other shiurim or bi'iyun on the
daf.

My father switched from DY to learning in a beis medrash (once he was able
to switch two a half-day workday) because he missed having time for a nice
juicy bi'iyun.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Nov-99: Shishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 64a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

In v4n11, Gila Atwood <gatwood@netvision.net.il> writes:
: Re  takanot and gezerot when conditions change.  E.g. takana of Ezra
: forbidding laundry of clothes for Shabbos on Erev Shabbos.

This is different in kind than what we're discussing. We were on the subject
of piskei halachah based on erroneous data. You're now introducing takanos
based on no-longer-true date. 1- The takanah wasn't a mistake, and 2- we lack
the authority to repeal it.

In addition, I wasn't in favor of repealing piskei halachah unless we now
understand following the old p'sak to be in violation of an issur. Following
a gezeirah needlessly usually wouldn't qualify. And when it does, for example,
when you need an aspirin in order to experience simchas Yom Tov, we tend to
be meikil.

:                                        IMHOThere must be a standard.  It's
: not for me to say who for sure knows which standard is correcttoday in any
: particular issue! :-)

It has already been shown recently that this isn't necessarily true (at least
WRT tum'ah vitaharah, presumably in general as well). RYGB has an article
on the AishDas web site on the subject as well. There's strong support on
both sides of the subject of whether "eilu va'eilu" means that Hashem gave
Moshe Rabbeinu a plurality of correct answers. See the Avodah archives,
we hashed it out in the early days of this group.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Nov-99: Shishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 64a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Just what is the criteria for emes? 

I thought emes was based on WHAT was said not WHO said it?

Dind' many of us rely upon Jastrow for Peshat in gemoro?.

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Not good enough.

Can't rely on a Conservative Rabbi as a primary source.

Sorry.

RYGB

My own experience with a "Carlebach Minyan" was that I either had to make a
choice of saying the words properly and with some kind of Kavanna, or to try
and concentrate on somehow squeezing the words into the tune.  This doesn't
happen with Lecha Dodi where either because I'm more used to the tunes
together with the words, or because the tunes that are used have been
selected because they more appropriately fit the words. I was wondering what
others' experiences have been.

Also, I regularly attend a Shul which more often than not will have dancing
after Lecha Dodi.  While I notice that there is often a great deal of
hooting it up and high energy dancing , the Mizmor Shir L'yom HaSabbos and
the rest of the davening that follows seems (at least from outward
expressions) to me to be as parve as the davening that preceded the dancing
and as what usually happens there.  

I have been struggling for a long time now trying to understand the role of
dancing in davening.  I'm not trying to minimize anyone else's experience
and I do understand the power of dancing, I'm just trying toe understand its
place in davening. In 1974 & 1975 I spent a lot of time with Shlomo z'l and
during that time there were regular very well attended teachings being held
in Manhattan with a lot of singing and dancing.  I remember getting very
high from that dancing.  The challenge of course is taking that high and
using it in a growth producing way.  My judgment about the Friday night
dancing that I see, is that it seems to take on a life of its own. One would
think that dancing in shul during davening would be qualitatively different
from dancing at Simchas Torah, which would be qualitatively different from
dancing at a Chassana. But I don't really see that. To me the questions
becomes: is the dancing happening because everyone is infused with the
spirit of Shabbos, or is the dancing opening up places into which the spirit
of Shabbos can be infused, or do people really just love to dance.  And
while there are many positive uses to which the high of dancing can be put,
is that state compatible with where we are attempting to go with davening.
When the Ari Z'l and his talmidim went to the fields and brought in Shabbos
with singing and dancing, did they then daven Maariv, or did they go back to
shul and daven Maariv there.

I often wonder if because it is so difficult for many of use to feel
anything in much of our Avodah, that we're happy for any kind of engaging
experience such as the high we get from dancing.   But in reality is the
"headspace" that we are striving for in T'filla different from the one
engendered by dancing?

Once again, I'm not trying to challenge anyone's personal experience.  These
are my own issues.

Gad Frenkel

Joel quoted RMT's story re Rambam's shita on d'varim sheb'al peh):
<<Though the Rambam discusses it in his introduction, he never
addresses it within the halakhic code itself.>>

The Rambam does mention what seems to be his normative halachic
application of this din in Hilchos Tefila regarding a koreh and
meturgeman: i.e. that the meturgeman may not read aloud his translation
from a written text.  This,in fact, implies that there was no problem
with writing it down. So although the Rambam didnot pasken that the din
applies to Talmud Torah bizmano, it does still apply to krias hatorah.
IOW it is not a halacha in talmud torah, but a halacha in tefila.
An interesting source for this whole issue is the Rashi in Shabbos 6a,
d"h megillas s'tarim, where Rashi explains why the author of the hidden
scroll had to hide it. This Rashi has been interpreted two ways, as far
as I know.  I heard in the name of the Rav that Rashi means that the
issur only applied to public writing (e.g. publishing) of torah sheb'al
peh.  R. Zholti, however (in chelek OH in his ma'amar on Talmud Torah)
writes that Rashi impliesdavka tha opposite, i.e. that the issur applied
even to personal notes on TSB"P, and that is why the mechaber of the
scroll had to hide it.

Shabbat Shalom, 

David Eisenman

Pardon my ignorance,  but could someone enlighten me as to what a
Carlebach minyan is and how it differs from standard issue?

Our equal-opportunity basher <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes in v4n104:
: So... That's how you become a Gadol, You marry into the Family:)

Kidding aside -- who is a gadol going to find for his daughter but someone
who is of similar stature?

The cynical side is also somewhat true. There are many unrecognized gedolim
out there. Being within your father-in-law's spotlight is bound to help
someone with gedulah get recognized and accepted as a leader.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Nov-99: Shishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 64a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

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