Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 114

Saturday, November 6 1999

• Re: blurring distinctions
• Re: Shabbos Guests
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• blurring distinctions
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• Mandated role for women?
• Re: Mandated role for women?
• Reality Check
• Gedolei HaDor (Final Post, I hope)
• Re: Avodah V4 #111
• Re: Soloveitchik & Feinstein
• Re: Organ donation
• cholam=choilem=cheilem=chaulem=melo-foom
• Re: 5% and Mahatzit HaShekel Avodah V4 #109

Moshe Nugiel <friars@aquanet.co.il> writes in v4n108:
:           (note the use of QUOTATION MARKS):
: "Avraham turned to Eliezer, the elder of his household, who ruled over all
: his possessions," and asked him to go find a wife for Yitzchak (Genesis
: 24:2).

Well, what do you expect? This is the same generation in which we teach
our children the parashah out of "The Little Medrash Says". I love the
stories my kids come home with -- they're often new to me. Whereas the
story actually in the parashah make not make it into the curriculum.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Nov-99: Shishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 64a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> writes in v4n109:
: The deeper cause of that, IMHO is the linkage between the expectations
: on frum girls linked with the shidduch system.  Frum girls are brought
: up to believe (as per Micha) tbat their aim in life is to build a bayis
: ne'eman b'yisroel.  However, that means they cannot begin on their task
: in life until they find a shidduch.

This is actually a major problem with the approach I outlined -- it doesn't
explain the role of single women, and doesn't do much for childless women
either.

I hope it was clear that I wasn't coming up with a position from first
principles, but that I was trying to give a relatively liberal interpretation
of concepts found in mesorah. If someone can define women's roles without
ignoring concepts carried as mesorah (not as cultural) by the majority of
ba'alei mesorah I'm all ears.

Until then, we have to deal with "kevodah bas melech" and the single woman.
Is there a "penimah" around which (NOT limited to which) a single woman is
to build her avodas Hashem?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Nov-99: Shishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 64a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> comments in v4n105:
:        I find it difficult to see how absorption in a mitzva could be called
: hesech hada'as from geula.  It  **is**   the process of bringing geula.

But is that what our kavanah is supposed to be? With the exception of RMMS's
"moshiach campaign", avodas Hashem is usually defined in terms of d'veikus
and/or sh'leimus ha'adam -- not bi'as hago'el. And, if I'm concentrating on
the Borei and the enjoyment He provided for me in the food I just ate, I'm
not thinking about mashiach.

I'd think the value many sources, such as the Mesilas Yesharim, places on
perishus, shows that asceticism is key to a number of dirachim in Avodas
Hashem -- even if not many of us today gravitate toward those dirachim.
MY seems to be very ascetic in tone not only in how he understands perishus,
but also his definition of taharah, kedushah...

Which brings me to RRW's email in v4n108 (and the end of this catchup spree):
: How can one be so machmir and yet opposed to ascetism?  How did R. Weiss
: address kadesh atzmecho be'mutar loch? 

Need this refer to asceticism? If you view "mah shemutar lach" as a set of
tools, this can be seen as an imperative to use those tools for kedushah --
not to avoid the tools because of their potential for getting abused.

Similarly, the topic of chassidus and asceticism. It would seem that the
Besht, as well as chassidim today, strongly value the use of gashmius as
a tool for d'veikus. (The amount of alcohol consumed by a chassid vs a
Litvak should attest to that.) However, it is equally clear to me that
many Rebbeim advocated perishus (e.g. a personal galus) when it seemed
that the gavra was the one becoming the tool.

I admit this is not the usual understanding of the Ramban on "kedoshim tihyu".

Buenas Shabbat!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Nov-99: Shishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 64a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Touche!

R. Yeruchim  would describe talmidim who concentraed on the tofeil while 
ignoring the ikkar as being akin to a person who puts on a tie over his pajamas!
(this also goes into the realm of chitzoniyus, but let's save that for another 
post)

Midroshim are the delicious icing on the cake.  It's come to a point that we are
serving icing w/o the cake and that's a big problem.

EG Rashi always assumed that you read Onkelos first not Medrash Rabbo!  Good 
things are being taught in a "bad" sequence.

soemthing to think about, one admirable qaulity about Sefardic chinuch is their 
focus on Tanach and liturgyy.  They went into advanced studies with a solid 
foundation!

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Well, what do you expect? This is the same generation in which we teach 
our children the parashah out of "The Little Medrash Says". I love the 
stories my kids come home with -- they're often new to me. Whereas the 
story actually in the parashah make not make it into the curriculum.


Micha Berger 

RYGB, the Arbiter of Truth wrote:

> Not good enough.
> Can't rely on a Conservative Rabbi as a primary source.

It wasn't a primpary source, it was a secondary source.  Shivchei
haBesht is a primary source.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  You relied on
a Conservative rabbi's citation of Protestantism as a primary source
for your slippery slope argument.

Furthermore, Schochet only quoted the Shivchei haBesht, which is
all I brought from him.  Just because the Lubavitch Chassidus with
which you're familiar doesn't hold that way, doesn't mean that the
Besh"t didn't hold that way.  That has become painfully obvious aw
we've been learning the Tzavaas haRivash at Shaleshudis the past 
year.

> Sorry.

No you're not.  In fact, it's one of your favorite tactics: attack
the source of a quote, then ignore the substance of the argument.

Yes, I'm furious. 

> From: Jonathan J. Baker <jjbaker@panix.com>
 
> > Sources: E.J. Schochet, "The Hasidic Movement and the Gaon of Vilna",
> > pp. 54-60; R. Schatz-Uffenheimer, "Hasidism as Mysticism," pp. 52-57.

       Jonathan Baker     |  Marches-wan, marches-two,
       jjbaker@panix.com  |  March the months all through and through

The assumption made in a few postings--that there is a mandated role for
women in Judaism which is focused on the home--is far from clear.  Women
are not obligated to have children and only a few rishonim include them
in the command to marry.  While they are not obligated in general to
perform time- bound positive commandments, they fulfill a mitzvah by
doing so.  The dispute between the Ashkenazim and Sefardim is about
whether while performing the mitzvah they should make a beracha.
Tefillin and tsitsit are the the exceptions.
Not all women marry and others either can not have children or have seen
their children grow into adulthood.
In Tanach there are different kinds of models of righteous women,
including seven prophets.  The attempt to read into Eishes Chayil that
all her activities are secondary to her family responsibilities is not
based on anything in the text.  The very fact that some religious acts
are optional for women reflects that not all women will make the same
choices and that the same woman may function differently at different
stages of her life.
I am aware of many religious women who have successfully combined
education, career and family.  (My wife is a perfect example.)
Sincerely,
Yosef Blau

RYBlau writes:
: The assumption made in a few postings--that there is a mandated role for
: women in Judaism which is focused on the home--is far from clear.  Women
: are not obligated to have children and only a few rishonim include them
: in the command to marry.  While they are not obligated in general to
: perform time- bound positive commandments, they fulfill a mitzvah by
: doing so.  

The rule about mitzvos asei shehazman gerama is unclear -- there are more
exceptions than instantiations. RSRHirsch salvages the idea (as posted
by DRJHendel a while back) by saying it applies to time limited mitzvos
that involve interaction with the outside world. I said at the time that
this definition is somewhat subjective, as RSRH has a unique understanding
of which mitzvos *symbolize* things that are k'lapei chutz (like Succah
vs korban Pesach).

I invited the list to explain kavodah bas melech p'nimah without assuming
a centrality of the home. Again, it's a focus and a centrality, not a
limitation. I am clearly missing something, as it gives me no understanding
of HKBH's mission for single women and little for childless women to do.
I just don't understand how to construct something without jettisoning this
bit of masorah.

Because of the distinction between focus and limitation, I don't understand
how RYBlau reaches his conclusion. The fact that they can, but needn't, do
MASG (even w/out RSRH's chiddush) would seem to indicate that these mitzvos
have value for them but aren't the core of their avodah -- exactly the point
he's refuting. Please explain.

I'm not arguing against combining career and family. I'm saying that a woman
is expected to see herself as a family member who is a citizen, not a citizen
who has a family.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Nov-99: Shishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 64a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

It is now mid-afternoon on Erev Shabbos. Since havdala about 140 hours
ago, we have received 32 digests (4:82 to 4:113 inclusive) containing
about 584 posts. That's an average of about one post every 14 minutes. I
just wanted to share that bit of trivia with whoever might be interested.

On a related note, can anyone tell me the value of defining who is or is
not a "gadol"? Is there anyone among us who truly believes that there is
a clear line of any kind? One person might be more [insert preferred
adjective here] than another, but it's all a sliding scale. There is no
definable distinction between a gadol and an almost-gadol, and this has
got to be one of most pointless discussions I've ever seen.

Good Shabbos!

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
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I'm really tired of this subject As I'm sure everyone
else is and I Apologize if anyone is bored but I feel
the issue is unresolved.  I think there may be a
misunderstanding here. There is a major diffeerence
between a Gadol BaTorah and a Gadol Hador. A Gadol
BaTorah is anyone whom has mastered Torah.  That is,
all of Shas, Rishonim and Poskim.  Such a person would
qualify to paskin or to be mechadesh or both, and
should command the respect from anyone who knows about
him.  This does not equal a Gadol Hador. To qualify as
one of the Gedolei HaDor you must first be all of the
above, but you must be a leader in some sense, either
as a Rosh HaYeshiva (e.g. R. Yaakov, Rav Aharon
Kotler, or the Rav) or as an Admor(E.G. the Satmar
Rebbe, The Gerrer Rebbe, or The Lubavitcher Rebbe) or
as a Posek accepted by large numbers of Klal Israel
(e.g. R. Moshe, R. Ovadia Yosef ) or as a mechadesh
(i.e. R. Meir Simcha or The Rogatchover,or  the
Briskeer Rav.).  When these areas overlap, the Gadlus
is even greater. This does not take away from anyone
who is a major Talmid Chacham, and perhaps that Talmid
Chacham, who is a Gadol BaTorah, will some day be one
of the Gedolei HaDor,   but unless he has that type
recogntion from major segments of Klal Israel he is
not fro the Gedolei HaDor.  

As Much as I generaly disagree with Agudath Israel
philosophy,  I think this is how they determine who is
accepted onto the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah.  I agree
with their approach although not in how they go about
determine who qualifies.

HMI'm really tired of this subject but I feel the
issue is unresolved.  I think there may be a
misunderstanding here. There is a major diffeerence
between a Gadol BaTorah and a Gadol Hador. A Gadol
BaTorah is anyone whom has mastered Torah.  That is,
all of Shas, Rishonim and Poskim.  Such a person would
qualify to paskin or to be mechadesh or both, and
should command the respect from anyone who knows about
him.  This does not equal a Gadol Hador. To qualify as
one of the Gedolei HaDor you must first be all of the
above, but you must be a leader in some sense, either
as a Rosh HaYeshiva (e.g. R. Yaakov, Rav Aharon
Kotler, or the Rav) or as an Admor(E.G. the Satmar
Rebbe, The Gerrer Rebbe, or The Lubavitcher Rebbe) or
as a Posek accepted by large numbers of Klal Israel
(e.g. R. Moshe, R. Ovadia Yosef ) or as a mechadesh
(i.e. R. Meir Simcha or The Rogatchover,or  the
Briskeer Rav.).  When these areas overlap, the Gadlus
is even greater. This does not take away from anyone
who is a major Talmid Chacham, and perhaps that Talmid
Chacham, who is a Gadol BaTorah, will some day be one
of the Gedolei HaDor,   but unless he has that type
recogntion from major segments of Klal Israel he is
not fro the Gedolei HaDor.  

As Much as I generaly disagree with Agudath Israel
philosophy,  I think this is how they determine who is
accepted onto the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah.  I agree
with their definition although not in how they go
about determining who qualifies.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

last Shabbos, I went to a Carlebach minyan in a big shul. The davenning was 
phenomenal. I did not feel rushed nor did I feel that the davenning was too 
long to become a tircha detzbura and detract from my oneg Shabbos with my 
family.
                                    Zeliglaw@aol.com(Steven Brizel)

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Our equal-opportunity basher <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> writes in v4n104:
> : So... That's how you become a Gadol, You marry
> into the Family:)
> 
> Kidding aside -- who is a gadol going to find for
> his daughter but someone
> who is of similar stature?
> 
> The cynical side is also somewhat true. There are
> many unrecognized gedolim
> out there. Being within your father-in-law's
> spotlight is bound to help
> someone with gedulah get recognized and accepted as
> a leader.

I agree.  that's why successor lines in Yeshivos often
follow the son in law rather than the son. The Yeshiva
system is therefore more merit based.  Merit is more
severely limited in the succession chain of Chasidus
as it follows a father to son tradition, with rare
exception.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Organ donation is discussed in the Nishmat Avraham YOREH DEAH 157 #4 Section
II. There is machloket acharonim whether someone is required to save
the life of someone else if the act entails endangering himself (sakanat
eyvar). Those that say it's required include: Piskei Rekanati 470; Or
sameach Hilchot Rotzeach 7:8. Those that say it's a Midat Chassidut
include: Shu"t Radbaz Chelek Gimmel 627. Thus, it's *mutar* for someone
to place himself in danger in order to donate a kidney to save another
life, but's it's not a chiyuv.

Regarding organ donation from a dead donor see Nishmat Avraham YD 359 Gimmel
(3):1.

Brain death: until September 1998, doctors were all so complacent about
accepting a flat EEG trace as indicating brain death and *death* in general.
Then cama a startling paper in one of the neurology journals that stunned
the medical community: people being in a coma on a respirator for more
than a year suddenly waking up. This tremendously complicates the
situation for heart transplants.

Josh

R'Micha Berger writes:

>I too switched from choilum to cholum, as did many Americans.

>Lima'aseh, it's problematic. I'm pretty sure lichatchilah I should be >saying shema in 
Poilisher/Southern Litvish Hebrew. .... I don't think I >should be inheriting their lack of 
gadol vs katan, syllable stressing,
>tenuos chatufos, etc...

To those interested in "proper" pronunciation and its history from Jewish sources 
only, I recommend a book named Sefat Emet,Siftei Kohen (two compositions in one 
volume subtitled Mivta Leshon Hakodesh ka-halakha) by Rav Ben-Zion Hakohen.  The 
author (z"l) gives the history of every consonant and every vowel citing sources from 
Haza'l. rishonim, acharonim, etc. He almost doesn't mention the work of the scientific 
researchers who often come to conclusions similar to his..

Most interesting is his comments on the pesakim of R' Moshe F. and Har' A. Y. Kook 
on not changing "traditional" pronunciation. Their pesakim, he says, were based, as 
they state, on all pronunciations being of equal value because we do not know that 
one is more "correct" than the others. But R' Ben-Zion shows that our sources show 
us the correct pronunciation and he shows how the changes came about.  He says: If  
R' Moshe and R' Kook knew these things they would not have paskened as they did. 
Further while R' Moshe says our ancestors used this "traditional" pronunciation for 
alfei shanim. The author proves that it is only a few hundred years and believes these 
"new" shibushim should not be perpetualized and given kedusha. 


> Am I the only one who is daunted by the current volume of emails?
No, I too am overwhelmed and lately can only scan through rapidly in hope that my 
eye catches something of greater interest.

After reading the info-mercial for the 5% there are only 2 things to say:

a) Mahatzit HaShekel was for Beit HaMikdash

b) It's time that American Jewry make aliyah.  Perhaps they should even
follow the example of Ben Azai who jumped into the water of the Jordan river
when he missed the boat and swam across saying:  Moshe Rabeinu didn't
make -- so who promises that I will.

If all these hundreds of thousands of dollars were loaned as G'mach to
people who want to make Aliyah and can't afford some aspect of this --
everyone could probably come here, and the whole problem of Education would
be different as in Israel Jewish studies are part of the public school
system, so even in Yeshivot and Ulpanot we don't pay as much as you pay in
the States.

Shabbat Shalom

Shoshana L. Boublil
Ramat Gan, Israel

-----Original Message-----

*********************


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