Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 117

Sunday, November 7 1999

• Re: Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Chassidim, and Now RAYHK
• Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Chassidim, and Now RAYHK
• RE: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Torah U'Madda
• Re: Avodah V4 #106: Mincha Minyanim in Yerushalayim.
• Historiography

----- Original Message -----
From: Feldman, Mark <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 2:40 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Chassidim,


> I'm no expert on these matters, but didn't Rav Kook believe that one can
> elevate secular studies?
>
> In other words, the fact that Chassidim--who for other reasons may have
been
> against involvement in the secular world--did not give any hint as to the
> application of the model to secular studies should not bias us against
> applying the model.  Secular study, which is in essence the study of
> Hashem's creation (certainly in the case of the "hard sciences"; in the
case
> of humanities, it is the study of Hashem's creations' creation), is
> undoubtedly different from pig, and the fact that its value has been
> affirmed by Greats from the Vilna Gaon to Rav Kook should give us a
certain
> measure of confidence that the Chassidic model should be applicable.
>

You are correct, Rav Kook (RAYHK) expressed the idea that the Kabbalistic
model might be applicable to Chochmos Chitzoniyos (CC). Using R' Tzuriel's
Otzaros Ha'Ra'ayah vol. 1 yields several sources in Arpelei Tohar that apply
the Ha'ala'as Nitzotzos model to CC.

But RAYHK cannot be said to have been pro-Chassidic. He severely critiqued
the Chassidic movement on several accounts, and I do not believe this
interpretive of Chassidus. R' Tzuriel makes the point that this is really
more Gr"o-like.

RAYHK was against organized CC, i.e., in yeshivos and even Torah-true high
schools a la the German TIDE model. He adhered to the cherem not to
introduce CC in Yerushalayim (Igros 2:266). And, he made the statement  in
Ginzei Ha'Ra'ayah, Chanuka, that one may not mix together Torah and CC, and
that there are times that it is worthwhile to forsake CC so as not to dilute
the focus on our own sources. (See R' Tzuriel's comments on the Heb U
episode as well).

Let me ask: I do not possess my own copy of R' Lamm's TUM - did he not
distinguish between his school of thought and that of RAYHK?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

"Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> You are correct, Rav Kook (RAYHK) expressed the idea that the
> Kabbalistic
> model might be applicable to Chochmos Chitzoniyos (CC). Using R'
> Tzuriel's
> Otzaros Ha'Ra'ayah vol. 1 yields several sources in Arpelei Tohar
> that apply
> the Ha'ala'as Nitzotzos model to CC.
> 
> But RAYHK cannot be said to have been pro-Chassidic. He severely
> critiqued
> the Chassidic movement on several accounts, and I do not believe
> this
> interpretive of Chassidus. R' Tzuriel makes the point that this is
> really
> more Gr"o-like.
> 
> RAYHK was against organized CC, i.e., in yeshivos and even
> Torah-true high
> schools a la the German TIDE model. 

Again, I'm no expert here.  But perhaps we can do a "ha'tzad
ha'shaveh" here.  RAYHK may not have been pro-Chassidic, but perhaps
for other reasons.  And, RAYHK may not have preferred integration of
secular studies with religious studies, but perhaps for other reasons
(in fact, I'm not sure that R. Lamm's Chassidic TUM model requires
studying secular & religious studies in the same institution).

(Sorry, don't own a copy of R. Lamm's TUM.)

Kol tuv,
Moshe


=====

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--- "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM> wrote:

> 
> Everyone sees things his own way.  My understanding
> was that R. Schiller was
> showing how pleasures had a certain value when
> viewed in the context of
> Avodat Hashem, 
> 
> I might add that every good thing can be abused, if
> taken to an extreme.

Not that I want to bash anyone but there is a certain
ethnic group about whcich the proverbial "Chandelier"
has become a joke: reffering to the conspicuous
consumption of a group with strong ties to Satmar
Chasidus.  If one looks at the spending habits of this
group one will notice that the "Chandelier" is just
symbolic of a lifestyle choice which often includes
conspicuous consumption on all levels.  One can define
conspicuous consumption as an expression of pleasure
seeking.  The question arises why is this ethnic
subgroup so identified with this type of behavior?  Is
this anecdotal evidence of the pleasure seeking
principle being debated on this thread?

HM

=====

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>Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:37:01 +0200
>From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: RE: Mincha Gedola?
>
>> Could be, at least in Yerushalayim. Or maybe people just get
>> home earlier here. But I do miss the ease of finding a minyan in the
>> office building across the street that I had in Manhattan.
>>
>
>Where are you in Jerusalem? Most business areas (and large businesses) I
>know of here have Mincha Gedola minyanim, quite often with a 5-minute
>Mishnah Yomit.
>
>

There are scads of minchah minyanim in office buildings in and around
Yerushalayim. We have two in ours, complete with a mini-mishnah shei'ur and
an occasional "kiddush" (what do you call a "kiddush" during the week, when
there is no kiddush?)  If I remember correctly, your (Carl Sherer's) office
is across from the Mechess Building; I wouldn't be surprised if there is a
minyan there.

hg



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  Hershel & Susan Ginsburg               Internet: ginzy@netvision.net.il
  P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27           Phone: 972-2-993-8134
  Efrat,  90435                          FAX:  972-2-993-8122
  Israel

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

> 
> The girls got scared, started running away and found their exit blocked by
> another crowd of men (the women shouted impreciations from the windows and
> threw things at them).  They cried and shouted that the other side is
> blocked and finally they were let out of Me'ah Shearim.
> 
> Some men in the crowd knocked the rabbi's kippa off his head telling him to
> take it off.  Only afterwards was it determined that the locals thought
> these girls were tourists coming to stare at the Me'ah Shearim types.  I
> still don't think this was reasonable behavior.
> 
> There were a few incidences of women who approached some of the girls,
> telling the ones they saw to come in for a cup of tea, but the experience
> which was intended to introduce the girls to Chassidim in their homes just
> gave them the experience of being frightened, hurt and being called Shiksa
> and Kofrim by their fellow jews.  My daughter said she heard one voice call
> out that they could stay b/c they were jews.
> 
> Now, I have to explain this to my daughter.  Anyone want to help?
> 
> Shoshana L. Boublil,
> Ramat Gan, Israel
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:24:32 +0200 (GMT+0200)
> From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #107
> 
> > 
> > Subject: Shabbos Guests
> > 
> > A long long time ago when I was a single sem girl, our sem used to set us up
> > with families so we wouldn't have to call ourselves. Many of these would ask
> > us to feel free to invite ourselves afterwards. If I already felt
> > comfortable with them that was often enough to overcome my innate British
> > reserve('what's she talking about?' I hear you ask)
> > 
> > Guidelines? Simply don't ask the girls about themselves. Ask them about
> > their sems,  their teachers, their trips around Israel. Talk about
> > yourselves to ease the tension and prompt them to volunteer information if
> > they wish. Some girls like to help out, others would be horrified to be
> > asked- your collective intuition help out there.  Your wife could compliment
> > them on some aspect of their appearance-  that never fails to endear self
> > conscious teenage girls who are probably wondering if they are presentable.
> > 
> On the other hand my wife and even more my kids get upset when they work
> and the young woman doesn't. We still remember one person who when asked
> responded that she works all week and didn't come for shabbat to do some
> more work.
> 
> Eli Turkel
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:40:22 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <csherer@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #107
> 
> On 7 Nov 99, at 13:24, Eli Turkel wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > Subject: Shabbos Guests
> > > 
> > > A long long time ago when I was a single sem girl, our sem used to
> > > set us up with families so we wouldn't have to call ourselves. Many
> > > of these would ask us to feel free to invite ourselves afterwards.
> > > If I already felt comfortable with them that was often enough to
> > > overcome my innate British reserve('what's she talking about?' I
> > > hear you ask)
> > > 
> > > Guidelines? Simply don't ask the girls about themselves. Ask them
> > > about their sems,  their teachers, their trips around Israel. Talk
> > > about yourselves to ease the tension and prompt them to volunteer
> > > information if they wish. Some girls like to help out, others would
> > > be horrified to be asked- your collective intuition help out there. 
> > > Your wife could compliment them on some aspect of their appearance- 
> > > that never fails to endear self conscious teenage girls who are
> > > probably wondering if they are presentable.
> > > 
> > On the other hand my wife and even more my kids get upset when they
> > work and the young woman doesn't. We still remember one person who
> > when asked responded that she works all week and didn't come for
> > shabbat to do some more work.
> 
> Funny story on this one....
> 
> When I was a bochur, my Rebbe once complained in shiur that 
> they always had girls from a certain seminary (where his wife 
> taught) for Shabbos, and all the girls used to sit at the table like 
> queens. It goes without saying, that thereafter any guys who were 
> invited to the Rebbe's house for Shabbos insisted on clearing the 
> table and washing the dishes. After all, we're better than the girls, 
> right? :-) 
> 
> A year and a half later, during Sheva Brachos for my wedding, my 
> Rebbe's wife told me that she used to have to re-wash all the 
> dishes that we washed.
> 
> Motto of the story - sometimes you're better off without the help 
> (and not just if the guests are male. We've had seminary girls 
> whose husbands are going to have to be martyrs to marry them...).
> 
> - -- Carl
> 
> 
> Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
> Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
> Telephone 972-2-625-7751
> Fax 972-2-625-0461
> mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
> 
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:45:54 +0200 (GMT+0200)
> From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> Subject: gedolim
> 
> > doctrine of the virtue of Bittul Lubavitchers are disinclined to play the
> > "I'm a Gadol" trumpet but there are many Gedolei Torah in Lubavitch who's
> > Beliius, Amkus, and Charifus match those of ANY Gadol in the world today
> > Here are some names (in no particular order). Let those who are truly
> > qualified to do so judge for themselves. They will find these Gedolim
> > very approachable.
> > 
> > This is only a partial list.
> > 
> By my count there were 13 gedolim on this count. I have no doubt all the people
> on the list were talmidei chachamim, but gedolim?
> Without any knowledge of these people I would assume that YU has several
> rabbonim on a similar level. Lakewood probably more and several more in
> Telshe and other out of town yeshivot. Adding the various brookyln yeshivot
> one easily comes to over 50 gedolim. Plus another chassidic gedolim and we have
> 100 gedolim in America. Israel easily has twice as many including sefardim but
> others in other countries. Hence, if Lubavitch has (in a partial list) 13 gedolim
> there are easily 300-500 gedolim in the world.
> 
> Somehow my concept of a gadol is much more limited 5-10 possibly 20 but hundreds?
> 
> Eli Turkel
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:30:07 +0200 ("IST)
> From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> Subject: outside influence
> 
> > - --- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:
> > > I can only urge you to study sefer Chasidim with an open mind and the
> > > comments of  R' Reuven Margolios, who gives m'koros in chazal (often
> > > quite obscure ones) for virtually everything R' Yehuda Hachasid has to say
> > > If you do, I'm not sure you'll find Dr. S. quite so convincing anymore. In
> > > addition, if Dr. S. were right, don't you think a boki b'kol haTora kulo 
> > > like Chida or R' Eliezer Papo (both of whom composed extensive works on 
> > > Sefer Chasidim) would have noticed that something was amiss when
> > > they read statements in Sefer Chasidim that don't appear anywhere in the
> > > mesora, even if they "forgot" about R' Yehuda Hachasid's supposed
> > > convictions regarding extra-masoratic requirements? Fianlly, that R' 
> > > Yehuda Hachasid wasn't accepted by his contemporaries is not dispositive
> > > of anything. We can observe the same phenomenon with Ramchal and
> > > others who have our alliegance today.
> > 
> Moshe responds
> 
> > It's not an issue of being baki (Dr. S is no slouch! and I'm sure
> > looked at the standard commentaries on Sefer Chasidim).  The issue is
> > whether one reads the text with a view towards understanding the
> > historical context.  Dr. S did that (and very cleverly, I might add)
> > and most achronim do not.  Once you see his analysis, it's pretty
> > convincing.  I highly recommend the article (printed in the AJS
> > Review, I think).
> > 
> I don't think that it is an issue of apperaing in Chazal at all. I feel
> it is clear that within Chazal there were divergent attitudes towards
> ascetism, eg is the one who makes a neder "choteh". Different eras
> and places chose to stress one aspect at the expense of others, neither
> side invented anything. What most historians claim is that these tendecies
> were influenced (not 100% determined) by what what went on in the outside
> world. Ascetic ideas in Germany may have influenced the Hasidei Ashkenaz
> to emphasize the pre-existing values of ascetism in the Talmud. On the
> other hand Rambam influenced by Greek and Arabic philosophy down played
> these ideas.
> 
> I understand that Rav Avraham ben haRambam was an ascetic and also a
> major follower of his father's philosophy. Hence, the two don't seem to
> be mutually exclusive.
> 
> Kol Tuv,
> Eli Turkel
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:46:31 +0200 ("IST)
> From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #114
> 
> > 
> > HM
> > I agree.  that's why successor lines in Yeshivos often
> > follow the son in law rather than the son. The Yeshiva
> > system is therefore more merit based.  
> 
> Agreed. However, it is still a question of being in the right
> place at the right time. Many of us know "gedolim" who were not
> recognized because they were not related to anyone.
> In many yeshivot it is hard to get a position if one is not related.
> 
> Eli Turkel
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:42:04 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <csherer@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: OFF TOPIC - Downtown Toronto
> 
> I love last minute trips....
> 
> If anyone can give me a crash course on downtown restaurants and 
> minyanim (including Shachris) in Toronto I would greatly appreciate 
> it. I am staying in the area of the Toronto Dominion Centre 
> (hopefully not for Shabbos).
> 
> Please answer privately in the next 6-8 hours or so.
> 
> Many thanks.
> 
> - -- Carl
> 
> 
> Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
> Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
> Telephone 972-2-625-7751
> Fax 972-2-625-0461
> mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
> 
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:38:09 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
> Subject: Re: Rambam and asceticism
> 
> Well, I was mistaken about physicality being from Tzavaas haRivash. 
> However, as has been noted before, ThR does differ from Chabad
> (and, incidentally, the Nefesh haChayim) on various points, e.g.,
> the relative priorities of learning and prayer.
> 
> The Shivhei haBesht is paragraph 61. (tr. D. Ben Amos & J. Mintz, p.
> 80-81).
> 
> As for the Izbicer's point, I don't see how it is relevant to us
> bizman hazeh.  We aren't on the level where vinegar burns for us 
> as if it were oil.  So tivi explanations are what we can deal 
> with.
> 
> I cannot agree with you on:
> 
> > but, a Conservative
> > Rabbi nonetheless, to whom we cannot grant any ne'omonus, nor grant
> > bias-neutral status
> 
> since it is not on any issue of halacha for which he is being cited
> nor on Conservative vs. Orthodox relations, but rather for his expertise
> in history.  Is it anyone's fault that many of the people who are writing
> on Chasidic history in English (other than heavily biased stuff coming
> out of Lubavitch, and I include Dr. Mindel in this characterization)
> are disciples of Heschel?  We cannot grant bias-neutral status to anyone
> (as has become obvious in the RW vs LW media thread).
> 
> I still view it as a double standard that you can quote Conservative
> rabbis on their (non-halacha-related) field of expertise, but I cannot.
> 
> >We are
> >still left without any reliable source for an alleged Chassidic pro-pleasure
> >school of thought.
> 
> False.  I gave the story, I gave the citation.  You are content to cite
> your own book, which is not exactly widely owned, and tell people to look
> it up.  Yet when I cite a not-widely-owned book, you complain.  Double
> standards again.
> 
> I can't stand this.  I get complaints from the listmanager about not
> waiting till I get home to post things.  So when I do, I get snarked
> at by the former listmanager for posting in his own style.
> 
> If you can cite Conservative rabbis on their fields of non-halachic
> expertise, if you can cite page numbers of books that are not necessarily
> easily accessible to the rest of the list, it must be an acceptable
> posting style.
> 
> A point my wife told me I should have made in my previous "Yes I'm
> furious" post:
> 
>   Why am I conducting this exchange in public?  Because last time I
>   tried to call you on a tactical point in private, you ignored me.
> 
> So as to leave this on a positive note:
> 
> I have great respect for your knowledge and erudition, as well as your
> ancestry.  I am quite happy to be corrected on factual/logical errors,
> as on the Tzavaas haRivash.
> 
>        Jonathan Baker     |  Marches-wan, marches-two,
>        jjbaker@panix.com  |  March the months all through and through
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:23:01 -0500 
> From: "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
> Subject: Rambi Index of Articles in Jewish Studies
> 
> This is available on the Net by going to
> http://www.uni-duisburg.de/FB1/JStudien/RAMBI.htm#Access
> 
> (You go via Telnet into Hebrew University's system.)
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:12:06 -0800 (PST)
> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Cite for Dr. Soloveitchik's article
> 
> I was asked for the cite.  It is:
> 
> Haym Soloveitchik
> Three Themes in the Sefer Chasidim
> AJS Review v1 1976
> 
> =====
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:06:54 -0800 (PST)
> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: outside influence--That's not the issue
> 
> - --- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> > Moshe responds
> > 
> > > It's not an issue of being baki (Dr. S is no slouch! and I'm sure
> > > looked at the standard commentaries on Sefer Chasidim).  The
> > issue is
> > > whether one reads the text with a view towards understanding the
> > > historical context.  Dr. S did that (and very cleverly, I might
> > add)
> > > and most achronim do not.  Once you see his analysis, it's pretty
> > > convincing.  I highly recommend the article (printed in the AJS
> > > Review, I think).
> > > 
> <snip>
> > What most historians claim is that these
> > tendecies
> > were influenced (not 100% determined) by what what went on in the
> > outside
> > world. Ascetic ideas in Germany may have influenced the Hasidei
> > Ashkenaz
> > to emphasize the pre-existing values of ascetism in the Talmud. 
> 
> You may have missed what I had written about Dr. S's article (and may
> have been misled by David Nadoff's characterization of what I had
> written).  I was *not* referring to Hasidei Ashkenaz being influenced
> by ascetic ideas current in Germany.  In fact, as I recall, Dr. S
> merely alludes to that in the article as a possibility.  His main
> point was that R. Yehudah Hachasid believed that in addition to the
> mesorah of chazal as to what Hashem wants of us, there are
> other--*new*--requirements that we must discover.  RYH set about
> discovering these new requirements.  In his time, he was rejected by
> the rishonim; many of the ba'alei Hatosfot actually made fun of him
> and his talmidim.  Only a number of generations after his death did
> his work become popular, after it was forgotten that the work was
> motivated by the concept of new requirements.
> 
> My point in the paragraph you quoted is that a very knowledgeable
> achron may make the assumption that RYH had a basis in the mesorah
> and then set out to find the makor.  Dr. S did not make that a priori
> assumption and therefore came to a different conclusion.
> 
> We are probably familiar with perushim on the Yerushalmi who assumed
> that the Yerushalmi is similar to the Bavli and therefore explained a
> Yerushalmi based on the parallel sugya in the Bavli even where it is
> pretty clear that the Yerushalmi diverges from the Bavli.
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe
> 
> =====
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:17:58 -0500
> From: j e rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu>
> Subject: Re: Mandated role for women?
> 
>  
> > Because of the distinction between focus and limitation, I don't understand
> > how RYBlau reaches his conclusion. The fact that they can, but needn't, do
> > MASG (even w/out RSRH's chiddush) would seem to indicate that these mitzvos
> > have value for them but aren't the core of their avodah -- exactly the point
> > he's refuting. Please explain.
> 
> i believe rabbi blau's point is that both masg -and- marriage/children are
> optional, but allowed.
> 
> to bring in this outside/inside distinction is beside the point, as
> primary representatives of each category are optional for women.  
> marriage/children are even the heart of the "inside" role in a way
> that the optional ritual mitzvot are not with respect the "outside" role:
> that is, it is difficult to conceive of an "inside" role which does not
> include marriage and children, but it is easy to conceive of an outside
> role which does not include shema and tefillin.
> 
> janet
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:33:41 EST
> From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
> Subject: Chassidus and TUM
> 
> It strikes me as a bit paradoxical that you can say eating, drinking, and 
> otherwise engaging in 'life' can be turned into a form of avodah under the 
> rubric of Chassidus, but reading a good book cannot.  The distinction 
> being....?
> 
> - -Chaim
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:40:05 -0500 
> From: "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
> Subject: RE: Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Chassidim, 
> 
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> > You see, R' Lamm cannot determine, merely by his own 
> > pronouncement, that
> > this is a Davar ha'Reshus that one should attempt to elevate. 
> > The Chassidc
> > model is based on the assumption that there are certain cheftzas that
> > possess nitzotzos of kedusha that can be elevated by use 
> > le'shem shomayim.
> > The Chassidic model is not applied to certain processes nor 
> > to certain types
> > of cheftzas (davar assur. assur, in Chassidus, means that the 
> > nitzotzos are
> > too tied up - the translation of the Aramaic word assur - to 
> > be elevated in
> > our world. pig is an example). R' Lamm needs to prove, to use 
> > the Chassidic
> > model, that the model applies here. I do not believe he ever did.
> 
> I'm no expert on these matters, but didn't Rav Kook believe that one can
> elevate secular studies?
> 
> In other words, the fact that Chassidim--who for other reasons may have been
> against involvement in the secular world--did not give any hint as to the
> application of the model to secular studies should not bias us against
> applying the model.  Secular study, which is in essence the study of
> Hashem's creation (certainly in the case of the "hard sciences"; in the case
> of humanities, it is the study of Hashem's creations' creation), is
> undoubtedly different from pig, and the fact that its value has been
> affirmed by Greats from the Vilna Gaon to Rav Kook should give us a certain
> measure of confidence that the Chassidic model should be applicable.
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:58:29 -0500 
> From: "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
> Subject: RE: Was  Rambam and Asceticism, Now Torah U'Madda
> 
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> >[Moshe:]
> > I note the fact that in a subsequent issue, RYGB wrote a 
> > letter to the
> > > editor taking issue with R. Schiller with regard to the 
> > joys of baseball,
> > > noting that many highschoolers are more enthralled with 
> > sports than with
> > > learning.  R. Schiller answered that this was an abuse but did not
> > undermine
> > > the essence of the argument that Hashem in His beneficence grants us
> > > pleasures.  I wonder whether RYGB was satisfied with R. Schiller's
> > response.
> > > Maybe he could write our Avodah list what he would have written in
> > response
> > > to R. Schiller.
> > >
> > [RYGB:]
> > I thought that R' Schiller essentially conceded.
> > 
> 
> Everyone sees things his own way.  My understanding was that R. Schiller was
> showing how pleasures had a certain value when viewed in the context of
> Avodat Hashem, and gave the example of enjoying spectator sports.  RYGB
> wrote in saying that this is subject to abuse, implying (though he did not
> state it) that the pleasure of spectator sports is incompatible with Avodat
> Hashem.  R. Schiller replied that the existence of abuse does not undermine
> the essence of the argument.
> 
> I might add that every good thing can be abused, if taken to an extreme.
> This is because we have many obligations in this world--if one performs one
> mitzvah excessively to the exclusion of others, this is abusive.
> 
> Pleasure is more subject to abuse (especially in the case of high-schoolers,
> who may enjoy the Bulls much more than a blatt gemara; personally, I was
> never much of a sports fan).  In fact, this may be why Avodah she'begashmiut
> seems to have been abandoned by Chassidut; it wasn't *wrong*, just overly
> abused.  This may be a reason to set up more boundaries with regard to
> pleasure than with regard to other positive things, and perhaps a reason to
> abandon the endeavor entirely.  But this doesn't invalidate the appreciation
> of pleasure as a form of Avodat Hashem, if done properly.
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:17:39 EST
> From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Rivash and pro-pleasure
> 
> << I have been learning Tzavo'as Ha'Rivash since my bar mitzva (1975). Perhaps
>  you noticed that the standard edition is publsihed by "Kehos" (Chabad) and
>  was edited by my Uncle Immanuel. I took out one of my copies Erev Shabbos to
>  see if I could find the pro-pleasure philosophy espoused therein. >>
> 
> I'm not following this whole discussion, but l'gabai this prat I would add 1) 
> The Rivash espouses the concept of ha'alas hanitzozos (#109) - "ki zeh klal 
> gadol shekol davar she'ha-adam lovesh oh ochel oh mishtamesh b'kli hu neheneh 
> me-hachiyus sheb'oso davar...v'yesh sham nitzitzos kedoshos hashayachim 
> l'shoresh nishmaso."  (#141) - "Zeh klal gadol b'chol mah sheyesh ba'olam 
> yesh nitzotzim kedoshim, ain davar reik meiha-nitzotzim, afilu eitzim 
> v'avanim..."  [afilu Shakespeare?]  He goes on to say even an aveirah has 
> nitzotzos which can be elevated through the process of tshuvah.  2) Man can 
> engage G-d through this process (#94) 'bcholl derachecha de'eiyu...lashon 
> chibur...afilu b'devarim gashmi'im sheoseh'.  3) Gashmiyus is never an end 
> unto itself but must always be seen in the context as a means toward greater 
> avodah - "lo yistakel klal b'inyanei olam hazeh v'lo yachshov bahem klal rak 
> yistadel b'chol inyanim k'dei l'hafrid es atzmo me'ha-gashmiyus..."(#5).  Far 
> from pro-pleasure sounding to me!
> 
> It remains unclear to me whether ha'alas hanitzotzos (to Rivash) is a process 
> borne of necessity, i.e. when one if forced to engage in the daily activities 
> of life one should bear in mind that this too can be elevated into avodah, or 
> is the process a command, i.e. one should actively engage in worldly pursuits 
> to attain ha'alas hanitzotzos.  
> 
> (Just as an aside, I'm using the Kehos edition as well...does being related 
> to Uncle Immanuel through marraige count? : - )
> 
> - -Chaim
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:23:02 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Rambam and asceticism
> 
> On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Jonathan J. Baker wrote:
> 
> > Well, I was mistaken about physicality being from Tzavaas haRivash. 
> > However, as has been noted before, ThR does differ from Chabad
> > (and, incidentally, the Nefesh haChayim) on various points, e.g.,
> > the relative priorities of learning and prayer.
> > 
> > The Shivhei haBesht is paragraph 61. (tr. D. Ben Amos & J. Mintz, p.
> > 80-81).
> >
> 
> Now, let us ask that someone who has a Shivcheii ha"best convey t osu what
> it says there, with three caveats:
> 
> 1. The Shivchei Ha'Besht, even by Chassidim, is not seen as accurate. To
> it was first applied, I believe, the famous clarification: If you do not
> believe everything it says there could have happened, you are an apikores;
> if you beliieve they did happen, you are a fool.

So you dismiss this story specifically?  We weren't talking about the 
book as a whole.  I've heard the same  "clarification" made about Midrash.
If ShB is meant in a midrashic vein - stories meant to convey a point,
then the point of this story is clearly that physical indulgence (within
halachic limits, of course!) as a means of ensuring a joyous feeling is
OK.
 
> 2. It is mostly ma'asim, not ideological or pilosophical statements.

Indeed, yet we know almost nothing the Besht wrote himself anyway.

> 3. As I heard from one of my Rabbeim, anyone who bases a philosophy on
> asingle *Ma'amar Chazal* is dishonest and incorrect. One can derive almost
> any possible thing form an isolated Chazal. Patterns need be established.

And noting that you did not dismiss Schatz-Uffenheimer, I will note that
she has perceived a pattern: that pleasure as a means of engendering joy
was present from the beginning, and that it later changed to a means of
elevating the sparks.

> >              Is it anyone's fault that many of the people who are writing
> > on Chasidic history in English (other than heavily biased stuff coming
> > out of Lubavitch, and I include Dr. Mindel in this characterization)
> > are disciples of Heschel?  We cannot grant bias-neutral status to anyone
> > (as has become obvious in the RW vs LW media thread).
> 
> Still cannot accept the premise. We all know that the "Historians" 
> (Graetz, Dubnov et al) were heavily biased against Chassidim.

And other "Historians" (Mindel, Touger, Wein, etc.) were heavily biased
in favor of Chassidim, or against secularism, or against Haskalah, or
zionism, etc.  Reading history with a jaundiced eye is necessary, just
as reading the newspapers, be they Yated or Jewish Week, with an eye
toward their biases.  

Hirsch criticized Graetz for his distortion of history.  He did not
dismiss him a priori as an associate of Frankel. 

If I may quote our listmanager from another forum:

>Hirsch analyzes Graetz's history, at least its coverage of the mishnaic and
>talmudic eras (the first volume published), and shows that Graetz's theory of
>Hegelian historical development during this period is based entirely on
>misquotes, partial quotes, and conjection in the absence of erudition. In
>numerous cases the partial quote actually proves the opposite when the
>entire text is seen.

Read books, and understand where the authors are coming from, and
you will understand history in a more balanced way.  Read books
written only from one perspective, and you will wind up in a place
where others will not take you seriously.  Surely you didn't learn
to pasken by reading one author's teshuvot - you read a number of 
different people, and learned how they thought, and that helped 
shape how you think.

If you can convince me that Schochet is writing poor history, and 
is distorting his sources, I might accept your argument.  But a-priori
dismissal as a historian just for being a Conservative rabbi is not
realistic.

*********************


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