Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 121

Monday, November 8 1999

• Re: R' Yehudah HeChasid
• Re: Shabbos Guests
• Re: Re[2]: Rambam and asceticism
• Re: Brain Death
• Re: Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, now Torah uMadda
• Fish sinned
• RE: Shabbos Guests
• RE: Nukes and Nitzozos, ne'monus too.
• Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Etc.
• Re: your mail
• Re: Kol Kevodah Bas Melech Penimah
• Re: Women/psak
• Re: Friendly fundamentalists
• Rational Kabbalists
• Re: Avodah V4 #116: Sin'at Chinam etc.
• Re[2]: Friendly fundamentalists
• Re: Shabbos Guests
• Re: Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, now Torah uMadda

RYH is mentioned explicitly at least 3 times in Rishonim:

Tosafot haRosh Brachot 2a  (v'R' Yehuda heChasid haya mechaveyn latzeyt
yedai kriat shema..."

Tshuvot HaRashba Bet Chelek Aleph taf taf nun aleph (ayen b'tosafot
brachot shel rabeinu yehuda hechasid, 11b d"h meshakra, v'sham timtza
mefurash ...)

Shita Mekubetzet Bava Batra 75a  (v'katav R. David ben R. yehuda hechasid
z"l basefer 'livnat hesapir' ...)

[I'm a little confused to whom the Ritva is referring to (rav hechasid)
in Yoma 23b, and to whom Tosafot in Avoda Zara 12a d"h kol makom, [mori
hechasid] is referring to.

Josh

In message , Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> writes
>This is actually a major problem with the approach I outlined -- it doesn't
>explain the role of single women, and doesn't do much for childless women
>either.
>

The problem is wider even than single women and childless women.  Today
the average age expectancy for a woman is, I believe, around 75-85 (and
rising).  Most women do not have children much beyond 40 and many stop
earlier.  That means that most women can expect to have a good 20-30
years of reasonably healthy living *after* the children have left home.

Admittedly, there may be a way to ensure one does not have one's avodas
hashem destroyed - keep them dependant and at home!

My mother always said (this is what happens when you have a mother with
professional training in this area), that there are three stages of
mothering (parenting).  Symbiosis, which is the stage in which the
mother is the entire world of the baby, the initial bonding stage.  This
is the stage of infancy. The second stage is when the mother is the
center of the child's universe, around which he/she rotates to explore
the wider world, only to run back when frightened, and to which the
child still connects.  And the last stage is the stage of letting go,
when the umbilical cord is cut and the mother essentially moves out of
central stage.

One way of not losing one's purpose in life is to resist any attempts to
cut that umbilical cord - and you certainly see it out in the singles
"market", particularly with men who may profess the desire to get
married (as may their mothers), but are not capable of cleaving to their
wife until they can psychologically leave their mothers (there is an old
English folk rhyme that says it, "Your son is your son till he gets him
a wife, your daughter's your daughter for all of your life").

But it is not quite fair to blame the son that he cannot cut the
umbilical cord alone, especially as he is likely to be subconciously
aware that he is making his own mother redundant.  But how can you blame
the mother when her whole purpose in life, that you have described in
such glowing terms, is disappearing.  The image that comes to mind is
the dor hamidbar, digging their own graves and then lying down in them
on Tisha B'Av, knowing that they had to die in order for their children
to be able to go into Eretz Yisroel.

And of course, women these days are living longer than men, and as
husbands tend to be older than their wives, there is a greater chance
that the women will in fact be widowed, and hence not have even that
part of their bayis left.

So the question is not only what are single and childless women to do,
but what are women to do when they can no longer center their avodah
around family because that family is no longer there, assuming you do
not advocate the approach of the dor hamidbar of simply waiting to die.

I'm not providing any answers here - just trying to flesh out the full
extent of the problem.


>- -mi

Kind Regards

Chana


-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

I remember seeing copies of "Jastrow" in Telshe.  Of
course, at that time (9th and 10th grade), I had no
knowledege that he was one of the founding fathers of
the Conservative Movement.  I wonder if the Telsher
RH's were aware of Prof. Jastrow's Historiography.

HM

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> We did at Ner Yisrole's Mechina until "ugly" rumors
> circulated that Jastrow 
> wasn't frum, and then we still used it anyway...
> 
> Rich Wolpoe
> 
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________
> 
> 
> > Dind' many of us rely upon Jastrow for Peshat in
> gemoro?. 
> > 
> 
> Not that I can ever remember, no.
> 
> > Rich Wolpoe
> 
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago,
> IL 60659 
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


=====

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It was always my understanding (as a lay person)that
Brain death and Coma are two seperate things.  In a
Coma, an individual CAN still have brain function. 
Brain Death means absolutely no brain function,
whatsoever.  The two are not equal.  Is this a correct
understanding? 

A brief definition, in layman's terms would be quite
helpful.

HM

--- David Eisenman <eisenman@umich.edu> wrote:
> Josh wrote:
> <<Then cama a startling paper in one of the
> neurology journals that
> stunned
> the medical community: people being in a coma on a
> respirator for more
> than a year suddenly waking up.>>
> 
> Do you have the reference for this paper?  I am
> unaware of any recent
> major shake-ups in the brain death literature.  It
> has been known for
> quite some time that people can "wake up" after
> prolonged coma.  If they
> were not (properly) confirmed as brain dead then
> this is irrelevant.
> 
> Sincerely,
> David Eisenman
> 
> 


=====

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--- "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com> wrote:
> By adopting
> the "original" Chassidic model, R' Lamm sidesteps
> the question of what is 
> inside or outside the pale, by defining *everything*
> (including sins? 
> - not clear to me - that's where antinomianism can
> creep in) as "good
> things": mitzvah acts which the Toldos Yaakov Yosef
> sees as coming
> through the mitzvah of removing negaim.

Dr. Lamm clearly discusses the dangers inherent in the
Chasidic Model. The original chasidic masters came
close but never crossed the line.  The concept of
Avodah B'Gashmius allows that one might equate non
mitzva acts as substitutes for Aseh's if done
properly.  This they never claimed.  The difference is
that Mitzvos Aseh are in the category of Mtzuveh
VeOseh and therefore have a higher status than does
ABG. ABG has the staus of Aino MeTzuvah VeOseh. But no
where is it even implied that dvorim  HaIssurim can
violated as cheftzos of Avodah.

HM

=====

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The Ramban (Bereishis 1:29) is the one who says we may eat flesh because 
Noach saved the animals in the flood.

Mordechai Torczyner
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
Congregation Ohave Shalom, Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave

>
> The real heart of the issue is the extremely low level of self esteem
> among frum girls (almost across the spectrum) - which show up any
> time any such tests are done, almost regardless of in which community,
> or where in the world,  they are done.
>

I have serious doubts as to the validity of these tests -- Specifically, I
doubt that they are culturally valid.

For example: Ask a girl of 12-15 where she sees herself in ten years: A) At
home with children; or B) Working as a  Corporate Lawyer.

Guess which choice would be interpreted as indicative of low self esteem...

(Which is not to deny that self esteem is a problem for this generation,
Jewish or Gentile. Dr. Twersky writes about it at length.)

Akiva




===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

> or a bunch of
> really ticked off yeshaniks (li"h)

Am I the only one who finds this offensive?

> nuclear power plants. One wonders whether R. reisman or any
> of our other
> posters think there is a self-evident "jewish" position opposing
> construction or operataion of power plants?

A large number of Liberal/Jewish Renewal types think there is. They get the
write-ups in the press.

>
> describing the
> group visit to meah shearim strikes a similar note.. Are
> these attitudes
> characteristic of broader communities, and if so, which?

As someone who knows Meah Shearim *well*, having lived there for years, I
find the report difficult to accept.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

It seems that the root problem is the focus upon chitzoniyus.  This is a problem
with shidduchim too.  I attribute this to a society highly influenced by Madison
Avenue, although we can all find references to this throughout history.

FWIW, my favorite chasunnos are the most lebbedikke chassunos - NOT the most 
opulent ones.  If I were a rich man, (apologies to fiddler) I would hire 50 of 
the most lebbedike Yeshiva guys to be mesameich choson v'kalo (and perhaps a 
like number on the distaff side, too).  IOW, even given a $100,000 budget, one 
could allocate the funds with a priority on the ruchniyus aspects of the wedding
as opposed to the gashmiyus aspects.


Rich Wolpoe

You wrote:


Re: R'Cohen

> 	He does say that this is the Aramaic equivalent of Boruch Shem.  I
> cannot quote the entire piece, but if you want to borrow the sefer,  you
> can contact me offline.
> 


My apologies for taking so long to reply. The fax came ethrough OK, but
it's very hard to read. I've spent some time trying to decipher it, but
not enough yet to actually read it coherently. I'll keep working on it,
though, because I'm very curious. I haven't had a chance yet to explore
the Targum Yerushalmi. I will, b'li neder, by Wednesday night (the next
time I'll be in a beit medrash, unfortunately). Thanks.


---sam

In message , Pawshas@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 11/6/99 2:35:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:
>
>> I invited the list to explain kavodah bas melech p'nimah without assuming
>>  a centrality of the home. 
>
>Why isn't it an extension of "veHatzneia Leches Im Elokecha," of acting in a 
>"demure" (I despise that word, but it's the closest I can find in English) 
>manner, in general?
>

Because we derive halachic implications from this eg:

a) women can not be eidim al pi hatorah (see Shevuos 30a);
b) Rus was accepted as a convert because moabite women were not
prohibited only moahabite men. - why, because it was not expected of
women that they should have gone out and provided food and water for the
yidden when they passed through their lands (see yevamos 76a);

- see also Gitten 12a (husband's responsibilities to feed his wife and
not force her to go out in a foreign city and look for work).

Each of which applications are not applied to men, despite them also
fitting within the obligations of vehatzenia leches.

The suggestions that rather the matter is one of reshus (ie a woman,
unlike a man, can choose her path, whether inside or outside) fits much
better with these cases.  In all these cases it is a matter of *one
cannot expect women to do X*  - eg one cannot expect/require a woman to
come before a court and give eidus (an essential component of being an
eid is that attendance is mandatory, hence the whole concept of shevuos
haedus see discussion in Shevuos there - whereas, as Tosphos points out
on that daf, one can always be a litigant via an advocate). Likewise one
cannot punish a woman for not turning up with food and water, or for not
finding work in a strange city.  

On the other hand Avigayil did go out to David with an abundance of food
and drink and a woman may choose to say, give me the work of my hands
and I will support myself (it is just that the husband cannot impose
that choice upon her).

Thus if you take the other view that kol kavod bas melech penima means
that a woman *must* not do those things that fall within this category -
then give that going out to bring food and water falls within this
category (and hence Rus was permitted) then that would mean that what
Avigayil did was not correct.

>Mordechai Torczyner


Regards

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

In message , Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> writes
>I wasn't trying to define shofeit and dayan, but rather paraphrase Tosafos who
>seem to say that D'vorah was unique because she wasn't ruling on the strength
>of her own words, but because of pi hadibbur. I wasn't sure if a dayan could
>work al pi hadibbur, since that would seem to violate "lo bashamayim hi".
>
>It seems that authority can come because of being a navi and yet still lend
>authority to things said not qua navi.
>

The problem with this approach, which is what I addressed is my original
post, was that *the* definition of a navi sheker is to do or tell you to
do something against the torah. A navi is even forbidden to be mechadesh
something unless it is a hora'as sha'ah.

So, unless it is a hora'as sha'ah, Devorah could not have been judging
the people, al pi dibur or otherwise.

>Or perhaps it was a hora'as sha'ah.
>

Yes, that was what I suggested was Tosphos' second reason. I also
pointed out why that answer might not be fully satisfactory - namely the
length of time of this particular sha'ah and the fact that nowhere was
its nature as a hora'as sha'ah alluded to.  This is not to say it is not
one answer, but also gives one some understanding as to why this was not
the only answer provided.

>Either way, the viability of using D'vorah as a precident for permitting
>dayanot is questionable, and assumed to be false by Tosafos.
>

Not exactly.  What Tosphos does is look for ways to reconcile the
sources.  What you have is a statement (in Shevuos 29b and Nida 49a)
that those who can judge can be eidim, and as women cannot be eidim (see
Shevuos 30a) one can therefore derive that they cannot judge (see also
tosphos's problem from the derivation of another pasuk in Gitten which
would seem to suggest that women are within the category of those who
can judge).  there is also an explicit Yerushalmi saying women don't
judge and they don't give eidus.

So how are we to understand what I have called tosphos's third reason,
namely that the people accepted Devorah upon them?  To understand my
explanation, look again at the context in which this is learnt out - all
those who can judge can be eidim.  But this is not strictly true.  We
know that Moshe and Aaron cannot be eidim together, being brothers.
Likewise, in strict din, Moshe cannot be the dayan when Aaron is a
litigant.  But there is a classic exception in the case of a dayan (but
not of an eid) if the two litigants agree that they will have Moshe as
their dayan, then he can be that dayan, despite him being a karov of one
of the litigants. See the mishna Sanhedrin 24a and subsequent
discussions (neman alai abba).  This seems to be the classic case of the
litigants accepting a posel dayan to act as dayan, despite the fact that
such a dayan could not act as witness in the same case, and appears to
directly parallel the kiblu alehem language of tosphos.

It seems to me worth examining all of tosphos discussion, and not just
one part of it.

>- -mi

Regards

Chana


-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

Rich Wolpoe <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes in v4n111:
:             Sincere mainline enagelicals (eg the Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, 
: Jerry Fallwell) They will not prey <pun?> upon sincere Jews who proudly
: maintain their kesher to HKBHK via the Bris with Avrohom Yitzchok and
: Yaakov.

Well... I don't know about Graham. As I implied earlier he's a key player
in j4j -- which doesn't prey upon sincere Jews, but only for tactical reasons.
(You can get a dozen underaffiliated Jews for the same effort.)

J4J is a product of Graham's "Project '73", a program launched in 1973 to
convert Jews.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  8-Nov-99: Levi, Toldos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 65b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Any reason why the Maharal wouldn't be on that list?

Also, what do we mean by "rational"? As opposed to experiential (e.g.
Chassidus)? Mystical? I assume I can rule out the intent being
"non-illogical".

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  8-Nov-99: Levi, Toldos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 65b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

>Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:50:15 +0200
>From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: Sin'at Chinum and Hachnassat Orchim.
>

<snip> <snip>

>I would like to share with you my daughter's experience this past Shabbat in
>Meah Shearim.
>

<snip> <snip>


>Now, I have to explain this to my daughter.  Anyone want to help?
>
>Shoshana L. Boublil,
>Ramat Gan, Israel
>

a)  Unfortunately we often must distinguish between Jews and Judaism,
whatever the color of their kippah or kapoteh.

b)  We live in a time that is bearing more and more similarity to the
period just prior to the end of Bayit Sheini.

c)  Closely paraphrasing Rav Yisrael Meir Lau (Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of
Israel for you Chu"L-niks), we have learned very well how to die together
as many different kinds of Jews, can we now learn how to live together?
(it sounds better in Hebrew).

d)  Whatever danger Israel may or may not face from the implementation of
the Oslo Accords, it pales in comparison to the dangers stemming from the
ever expanding schisms which plague us here.

e)  To the extent that we as Orthodox Jews (of **ALL** types and stripes)
like to take credit for Kiruv Rechokim, we need to take equal credit the
superb job of Richook Kerovim (of **ALL** types and stripes), it which we
have particularly excelled.

hg


.............................................................................
                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
.............................................................................

I do NOT deny B Graham is out to convert jews.  the question is can we make 
common cause with BG legabei social issues.

And I personally do not fear that a serious Jew will be unduly pressured by Xmas
season in public school.  The fear I think we have is only legabei assimlilated 
Jews.

If highly committed Jews make common cause with evangelists, it's becaue they 
are not afraid of them.

I would concede that it's NOT a good plan for assimliated Jews.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Well... I don't know about Graham. As I implied earlier he's a key player
in j4j -- which doesn't prey upon sincere Jews, but only for tactical reasons. 
(You can get a dozen underaffiliated Jews for the same effort.)

J4J is a product of Graham's "Project '73", a program launched in 1973 to 
convert Jews.

-mi

--- Gil.Student@citicorp.com wrote:
>      Chana Luntz wrote:
>      
>      <<I have known numbers of girls whom I can best
> describe as ghosts, 
>      living in a holding position while waiting for
> that illusive shidduch. 

>   Gil responded:

> Of course I don't
> want singles to be 
>      "ghosts" and lead sad and depressed lives.  But
> I also don't want them 
>      to get used to a single lifestyle.  If I were
> single, I would much 
>      rather marry a "ghost" than a someone with a
> "fuller life."

I think you are missing the point of Chana's most
insightful post.  You assume that a fuller life means
that one will be so self centered with the pursuits of
self interest that when a shidach does come along,
either he/she will not want to give up the "freedom",
will be too set in his/her ways, or, will be seen by
the potential mate as way to self absorbed and
therefore, a bad candidate for marraige.  

While all of the above are possible, and perhaps some
of the reasons why there are so many older (past 30)
singles, that doesn't mean that when one is single one
has to become a "ghost" of a human being whose only
reason for living is marraige.  One can indeed  lead a
fuller life w/o becoming "married" to
"bachelor/bachelorette lifestyle.

HM

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--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> 
> But, if anything, the argument that AbG can extend
> to CC can only be based
> on Chabad. The Other Chassidic (OC) schools base the
> AbG approach on the
> arousal and avodah with Nefesh (the Nefesh
> ha'Behamis). The OC schools are,
> therefore, largely to an unjustified extent,
> criticized as
> anti-intellectual. I would not agree with that
> stereotype - they produced
> great scholars - but in their Avodas Hashem, they
> focused on Nefesh based
> activitites and arousal (singing, dancing, etc.) for
> dveykus. It was davka
> Chabad that focused on Neshama (the intellect).

This flies in the face of the oft attributed aspect of
Chasidus in general and Chabad Chasidus in particular
that it is Emunah Pshutah that is the higher form of
Emunah (as opposed to Emunah MiDaas) and therefore,
Chasidus discourages ANY type of, serious learning
even Limudei Kodesh, as a P'gam in one's Emunah
P'shuta.

HM

=====

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