Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 126

Wednesday, November 10 1999

• Re: Avodah V4 #124
• marrying bat talmid chacham
• RE: Rav Moshe vs.The Chassidic Rebbe
• Re: Brain Death
• Re: Avodah V4 #124
• Categorizing Gedolim
• Shabbos Meals
• Re[2]: Rav Moshe vs.The Chassidic Rebbe
• Color Coding
• Re: Color Coding
• Color Coding
• We're off to see the Rebbe
• Etiquette police
• Re: Avodah V4 #125 Request not to Crack Jokes about G-d
• Re: Sinat Chinum
• CC, weddings,etc.
• Rebbes
• Re: Color Coding

-----Original Message-----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
To: avodah-digest@aishdas.org <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Date: יום שלישי 09 נובמבר 1999 22:41
Subject: Avodah V4 #124



>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:51:20 -0500
>From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
>Subject: Rational Kabbalists
>
>Further clairfication
>
>A rational kabbalist is a kabblist who w/o Kabbala or mysticims would be a
>rationalist or scientifically oriented, analytical, a thinker, a
philosopher,
>etc.
>
>A non-rational Kabblastist is one who sans Kabbaollo might be an artist, a
poet,
>a musical composer, a free-spirit, a Bohemian, etc.
>
>EG if RYBS learned kabbolo, he would likely fall into category 1
>
>EG, if a poet like Ibn Gvirol learned  kabbolo, he would likely fall into
>catagory 2.
>
>Rich Wolpoe


If I thought categorizing people was difficult till now -- it's now even
worse!  Rav Kook was a rationalist and a kabbalist -- and also a poet!!!

Shoshana

HM writes

<<It occurs to me, however, that all those
Mashgichim/Shadchanim who advise budding Talmidei
Chachamim about finding a wealthy Bal Habyis/father in
law should instead be advising them to be looking for
a Bas Talmid Chacham.>>

and 
<<     If he doesn't already know this then he probably isn't a potential
gadol.  See pesachim 49a-b >>

I assume HM meant the Masgiach should advise marrying the daughter
of a rosh yeshiva. Marrying the daughter of a talmid chacham while
advisable from the Gemara will not necessarily help in getting a job.

Eli Turkel

>
> Because of the nature of the Chasid/Rebbe
> relationship. By Chasidim, you only go to one person
> for a shailo: the Rebbe.  Chasidism fosters and
> promotes this attitude. The Rebbe has much more
> authority and is much more all-encompassing in his
> relationship with Chassidim.  For example.  If a
> Skverer Chasid Has a Shaila, who's he going to
> call?... The Rebbe.  But beyond that the Rebbe is
> often asked advise beyond Halachic Shailos.  He is
> asked for guidance in family matters, raising
> children, business, and all other aspects of life.  He
> usually enjoys a degree of reverence from his Chasidim
> far beyond other branchs of Orthodox Judiasm have for
> their leaders.  (There is no shopping for a Posek if a
> Kula is needed.)

I though you meant that Chasidim ask around.

Although most Rebbe's are not Poskim today -- you go to the Rebbe for
advice. Most Chassidic shuls have a Rov (quite often a relative of the
Rebbe, but not always. Toldos Aharon's Rav was R' Meir Brandsdorfer (who's
now at Toldos Avraham Yitzhak, but that's another story).

> But your implication is correct. Today, the type of
> reverence once reserved for Rebbes of Chassidus has
> crossed over into the  world of the Litvishe Yeshivos.
> Many Roshei Yeshiva today have the same type of
> adulation from their Talmidim  that Chassidic Rebbes

Actually, I suspect (based on experience) that the roles have reversed, with
the Mashgiachs/Rosh Yeshivas having *more* adulation than the Chassidic
Rebbes.

> (A negative trend, in my book.)

I agree. When common sense isn't trusted, and all life's choices are
abrogated to one's Spiritual Advisor -- where's the bechira, the opportunity
for growth?

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

I reviewed the article which Josh cited  (in Avodah v4, #120: Shewmon
DA. Chronic "brain death": meta-analysis and conceptual consequences.
Neurology 51(6):1538-45, 1998.)
as having "stunned" the medical
community.  Since this is Avodah.org, and not Jewishdoc.com, I will
review and comment only on what I believe is the question that
interests
the list members, i.e. what is the relevance of this article to the
halachic debate on brain death (BD) and death (D), and its implications
for the permissibility of organ transplantation.

1.  The premise which the article seeks to "refute" is that BD=D
because
the former inevitably leads to rapid (1-2 weeks) cessation of bodily
functions (primarily heartbeat) even with maximal heroic medical
support.  It does not contest the axiom that BD=D.
2.  The article reviews cases of people properly declared BD who
remained "alive" for more than 2 weeks.
3.  There were no BD people who regained consciousness or spontaneous
breathing.
4.  There were a few people who with respirators (mechanical breathing
machines) remained with beating hearts for a long time.  The only
people
who remained as such for more than 1-2 months were people declared BD
as young children.  Most (but not all) required other medications to
keep their hearts beating as well.
5.  The author therefore contests the notion that BD inevitably leads
to rapid cessation of all bodily functions.

Now for the applications to halacha:

6.  Poskim who accept the equation BD=D do so primarily for one of two
reasons :

A.  BD is always associated with cessation of spontaneous breathing,
and
the gemara in Yoma (85a) establishes that absence of spontaneous
breathing is necessary and sufficient for determination of death. (two
of the main sources of support for the dissenters are the Chacham Tzvi
[Siman 77] and the Chasam Sofer [Y"D 338] who, they argue, required
absence of breathing, heartbeat and arousability; it is not at all clear
that the C"S believed this to be the case, as the Rabbanut HaRashit
states in its decision permitting heart transplants [reprinted in Assia
11(2-3), 70- 81, April 1987].  This is clarified in R. Shaul Yisraeli's
article in the same volume pp. 95- 104).

B.  If there is no blood flow to the brain tissue, as would be the case
for a person who is BD, and this can be objectively determined, then the
person is considered functionally decapitated (Hutaz Rosho), and
therefore dead, even if there are bodily movements (including
heartbeat).

There are other important issues and nuances, but AKM"L.  See RSY's
article mentioned above, and RMH's article mentioned below for more
details.

7.  Presence of a heartbeat is not relevant for the person who accepts
the equation BD=D.  In fact, the whole question of BD=D and the
importance of spontaneous breathing only arises for the person whose
heart is still beating.  If it is not then the question is moot.  This
point is made crystal clear in the important article by Dr. Mordechai
Halperin in Assia 12(3-4):5- 13, December 1989 discussing R. Moshe's
opinion on BD=D and heart transplantation.  In this crucial article
Dr.
Halperin establishes beyond what I would consider a shadow of a doubt
that R. Moshe accepted the equation of BD=D if one of the above two
criteria (irreversible cessation of spontaneous breathing or lack of
blood flow to the brain tissue) is established, and permitted heart
transplantation later in his life (reversing his decision in an
earlier
teshuva).  This article is supported by extensive discussions with
both
R. Moshe Tendler and R. Shabtai Rappaport, and ends with a letter from
RSP demonstrating the above points.  RSP showed this letter to R.
Dovid
Feinstein before publishing it, and R. Dovid agreed with everything
written in it.  This is significant, because one of the authors who
argues that R. Moshe never changed his opinion cites a conversation with
R. Dovid (which R. Dovid himself denies) [see R. D. Shor, HaMaor
40(kuntrus 5, 298):12- 13, 1987].

8.  As to the relevance of the cited article from Neurology, we can
only
conclude:
A.  Young children who are BD may have a spontaneous heartbeat for a
long time if left on breathing machines.
B.  Presence of heartbeat is irrelevant (in fact, it is expected) for
those who accept the halachic equation of BD=D.
C.  The Neurology article is irrelevant to the halachic discussion of
BD=D.

As to the other implications of the posting, there has been no change
in
the policies of any medical centers that I know of regarding
establishment of BD as a result of the Neurology article.  It was not as
mahapchani as suggested.  Details of the protocol have already been
discussed.

It is noteworthy that one important point highlighted by the article
is
the different behavior of BD children and adults.  Halacha recognizes
no
difference in determination of death for children and adults.  It is
interesting then, that the only difference between the two groups
observed in the article is one which has no halachic relevance for those
who accept BD=D.  In fact, one might suggest (though yesh l'ba'al din
lachlok since it is the fact of no heartbeat, not its inevitability,
that may be important) that the lack of such an halachic distinction, in
the face of the medical distinction, implies that this (i.e. spontaneous
heartbeat) should not be used as an halachic decision variable.

Anyone interested in the above articles who does not have access to
them
may contact me off-list and I would be glad to help out.

Sincerely,

David Eisenman

Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:



> I always make it clear at the beginning of the meal that all male (and any
> female who also wishes to) has to say a D'var Torah while I'm dishing up the
> meal. 


"Mayim Ahahronim Hovah." The Ben Ish Hai says that his father would use
that as divrei Torah at the table when he was in a hurry.

But at our table it's singing. Each guest has to name a favorite zemer and
teach me the tune. Unfortunately, yes, this does leave the women out, and
I've yet to find a solution to that. Suggestions welcome as to how to
include them.


---sam

Indeed.  Really truly great illuyish typoes defy ANY categorization other than 
perhaps genius.  They are above it all.

Dr. Lamm was so right about RYBS in that his followers would not appreciate the 
full scope of this multi-taletned individual.

EG, one of the Rav's talmidim was alleged to say the Rav was focused on the big 
picture and "deigned" not to deal with the trivial day-to-day stuff.

Dear colleagues, that MIGHT have been true of the Rav in NYC, but ask the Boston
community of the 1940's thru 1960's and I'm sure they will tell you he was VERY 
hands-on with hashgochos, kashrus etc.  All the minutae associated with being 
"chief" rabbi of "kehillas Boston" were within his perview...

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


If I thought categorizing people was difficult till now -- it's now even 
worse!  Rav Kook was a rationalist and a kabbalist -- and also a poet!!!

Shoshana

How about sending the men into the kitchen to clean up the disshes while the 
women sit at the tish and sing <smile>?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

But at our table it's singing. Each guest has to name a favorite zemer and 
teach me the tune. Unfortunately, yes, this does leave the women out, and 
I've yet to find a solution to that. Suggestions welcome as to how to 
include them.


---sam

No necessarily.  My impression is that when Rav Dworin was alive he answered 
halahcic she'los for Chabad.  hashkofo she'ilos and life-chaning she'ilos were 
different.  Can anyone verify this?

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Because of the nature of the Chasid/Rebbe relationship. 
By Chasidim, you only go to one person for a shailo: 
the Rebbe. 

HM

> >From: j e rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #107

Even a non-BT can be afraid of treifing the kitchen.  While in most 
> homes the old rule-of-thumb that the fleishicks area is the one nearest

> the sink and the stove -- it's not always true.  I have seen kitchens
where 
> red was used for Milcheks. 
	Sorry to derail this onto another topic,  but does anyone know why red
is so universally meat-is it an
association with blood?  How about green/blue for dairy-no easy free
association on that?

	Perhaps I should have started by asking if this is as universal as some
of us assume-Sefaradi contribution anyone?

Gershon

In a message dated 11/10/99 10:04:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

>   Sorry to derail this onto another topic,  but does anyone know why red
>  is so universally meat-is it an
>  association with blood?  How about green/blue for dairy-no easy free
>  association on that?
>  
>   Perhaps I should have started by asking if this is as universal as some
>  of us assume-Sefaradi contribution anyone?
>  
Minyan Linyan Boisoi Inyan see Ramoh Hil. Basar Bcholov end of Simon 90.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

FWI, my Mom had the popular red for meat,yellow for milchigs (the color of 
butter perhaps?) and green was often used for pareve (color of green vegetables 
perhaps?).

Rich Wolpoe




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Color Coding 

	Sorry to derail this onto another topic,  but does anyone know why red 
is so universally meat-is it an
association with blood?  How about green/blue for dairy-no easy free 
association on that?

	Perhaps I should have started by asking if this is as universal as some 
of us assume-Sefaradi contribution anyone?

Gershon

Being frum, whether it takes a chassidishe or yeshivishe form is and always 
has been about basing your avodas Hashem on the emulation of Rebbeim, 
Mashpeim and the like.  In fact one difference between the
"black hat" world and Modern Orthodoxy is the extent to which one consults 
Rebbeim and Mashpeim (I am not implying Modern Orthodox Jews don't do this 
but this stuff goes on more frequently in the frum world).  Far from "Rebbe 
worship" it is a form of bittul b/c it is realizing that Rebbeim or Roshei 
Yeshivos know far more about what the aibishter expects of you than you are 
likely ever to know.  The fact that some folks might take things too far in 
terms of "cult-like" behavior doesn't change this basic premise.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Harry,

No offense and no need to apologize.

And thanks to RYGB for using Rabbanit and not Rebbetzin.  It's funny but
when I hear the term "rebbitzin" I always think they are addressing my
grandmother (TLT"A).


Shoshana L. Boublil
Ramat Gan, Israel

-----Original Message-----

>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:29:43 -0500 (EST)
>From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
>Subject: Re: Request not to Crack Jokes about G-d
>
>In v4n119, RRW <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
>: What about jokes about Tzelem Elokim?
>: Isn't making a joke about a Jew a toldo of making fun of Hashem as it is
>: wrtten Bonim Atme Lashem?


Then we are in a L O T of trouble as the TNA"CH is full of humor.  BTW, I
highly recommend The Encyclopedia of Jewish Humor ed: Spalding.

Shoshana L. Boublil (nee Skaist)
Ramat Gan Israel

>Are you suggesting Jews in particular? I thought all b'nei Adam were banim
>(Mitzrayim is explicitely called so), but we had the status of bechor
(thereby
>giving midah-kineged-midah in makkas bichoros, as well as explaining
mamleches
>kohanim).
>
>- -mi
>
>- --
>Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Nov-99: Shelishi, Toldos
>micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
>http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 66a
>For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.

-----Original Message-----

>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:35:57 +0200
>From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: RE: Sin'at Chinum and Hachnassat Orchim.
>
>> Now, I have to explain this to my daughter.  Anyone want to help?
>
>First off, and I'm saying this as someone who *lived* in Meah Shearim for 7
>years, and who knows these people well: Find out what *really* happened.
>*All* the details. I have *never*, in 15 years of dealing with them, know
>them to act in the manner you describe. Friends living there are not aware
>of any "pogrom" that took place last Shabbat.


My daughter read your post and agrees, that there wasn't a progrom -- it
just felt like one:  they couldn't touch the girls as they were girls!  But
she managed to escape some detergent bags, and she saw a resident of MS get
hit by one.

>Your account doesn't match the Meah Shearim I know and lived in -- not
>geographically (There are no gates to lock in ther faces), not
Idealogically
>(the signs about Zionism are generally refering to Secular Zionism), and
>certainly not in terms of welcoming groups on Friday night.


The gates are in the entrance to what appeared to her as the entrance to a
Chazeir.  I asked her, and she can't remember if the word "religious"
appeared, so I could have been mistaken. (and if it didn't you're allowed to
call other jews Amalek?)

>For example: For years Baruch Levine, Jeff Sidel, Meyer Shuster, and others
>would bring groups of students and tourists through Meah Shearim. We're
>talking about 50-200 men AND women, the majority non-religious, many of the
>men wearing cardboard kipot or bandannas on their heads.
[del]

I have no argument that there are good people in MS.  This report was not
from the press, it was a first-hand account of her experiences.  Apparently
there _is_ some anger at least among some in MS against tourists.  In any
case, this isn't the first time I've heard the term Shiksa used
indiscriminately against people who dress differently than MS people.'

(next post by Akiva):
>> The above excerpted story, is one of the most
>> upsetting I have heard comming out from those
>> quarters.  This is of course not the first story of
>> it's kind.  There are many such stories in the holy
>> city.  So, it doesn't come as too much of a shock.


It did to me.

>Many, if not most of those stories, turn out not to be true... I *know*
that
>to be the case, having been present for incidents that were later reported
>in the press in a *totally* different manner.

This is not a press report.  This is what my daughter experienced.

>> However, without casting any aspersions on the
>> veracity of Shoshana's account (I'm convinced that she
>> is sincere),
>
>I agree about *her* sincerity -- I just doubt the original report was
>accurate.


This comes under the heading of insult.  I can't forgive you, only my
daughter can.

>> I am perplexed!
>>
>> Tzarich Iyun
>
>Agreed -- I suspect a minor encounter was majorly blown out of proportion
by
>the girls (who went there with their head's filled with *stories* about how
>terrible the MS people are...)

Akiva, shame on you.  The girls were _not_ filled with such stories.
LeHeifech.  They were told that these were wonderful people who had a
different lifestyle and that they were going to see and experience a
different Tisch.  I know the girls and their rabbis.  They went in with a
willingness to learn and came out with fear.  Maybe some people there need
to check themselves if they can't see anything wrong with the kind of
behavior she and her friends encountered.  I feel for the rabbis daughter
who started crying when someone knocked her father's kippa off his head
telling him he didn't have the right to wear it (or something similar).
Just b/c you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

BTW, I too have relatives in MS who I'm sure never partook in this.  So?
does this mean it didn't happen?  As I noted a few women called to some of
the girls and told them to come into their homes for tea until the
hullaballoo would end.  So someone knows what happened there.

I did not post lies.  I did not post in order to claim anykind of
superiority.  I posted to encourage awareness and if the best response is
that you are sure that I (her mother) am sincere, in a tone that doubts my
daughters veracity -- then you haven't learned anything.

I posted this story b/c of what we learn from Egla Aruffa.  Each of us is
sure we are pure and that everything we do is LeShem Shamayim.  Then we
always blame everyone else for the ills of the world.  If people can hurt
people in the name of Judaism it's time to rethink and remember that Pinhas
who is used as an example for Kinat HaSheim was blessed by Hashem with
peace.  Everyone agrees that Sin'at Chinum is what caused the destruction of
the Temple.  It's time that we stopped blaiming everyone "else" (amaleik
etc.) and started examining ourselves.


>Akiva


Shoshana L. Boublil
Israel

> richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> 
> > FWIW, my favorite chasunnos are the most lebbedikke chassunos - 
> NOT the most opulent ones.  If I were a rich man, (apologies to
fiddler) I 
> would hire 50 of the most lebbedike Yeshiva guys to be mesameich choson
v'kalo (and 
> perhaps a like number on the distaff side, too).
	Come to Brooklyn.  We occasionally have something here called a chesed
chasuna which entails, usually, Russian immigrant couples who never had a
chupa and now are having one.  They make it in a yeshiva dining room, 
get bochurim and BY girls to come and dance and a local caterer to donate
or local women to cook.  They are some of the nicest chasunas I've ever
been to.  I think the size and formality (not even opulence, 
necessarily) give people a disconnected feeling which translates into a
lack of lebedikeit,  coming late,  leaving early,  etc.  Much to be said
for the old fashioned way of doing things.

Gershon

From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: Rav Moshe vs.The Chassidic Rebbe
> 
> - --- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > >
> > > This is what Chasidim do.
> > 
> > This is a sweeping statement, and not one that (IMO)
> > is accurate. Why only
> > Chasidim?
> 
> Because of the nature of the Chasid/Rebbe
> relationship. By Chasidim, you only go to one person
> for a shailo: the Rebbe.  Chasidism fosters and
> promotes this attitude. The Rebbe has much more
> authority and is much more all-encompassing in his
> relationship with Chassidim.  For example.  If a
> Skverer Chasid Has a Shaila, who's he going to
> call?... The Rebbe.  But beyond that the Rebbe is
> often asked advise beyond Halachic Shailos.>>


	Correct me if I'm wrong (as if I had to ask <g>!) but my impression is
that there is a separate and distinct function of the "Rov" than the
"Rebbe".  The Rebbe would be asked for advice,  brochos,  etc. while the
Rov would  be asked strictly halachic shailos.  This is NOT to say that
many Rebbes don' t combine the two functions but it is not always or even
usually the case.

	Your extension of the concept to Roshei Yeshiva is still valid.  Many
Roshei Yeshiva,  while expert in "lomdus" and sought after for advice
and, yes, brochos,  may not be experts in psak.  

Gershon

Gershon Dubin wrote:


> 	Sorry to derail this onto another topic,  but does anyone know why red
> is so universally meat-is it an
> association with blood?  How about green/blue for dairy-no easy free
> association on that?
> 
> 	Perhaps I should have started by asking if this is as universal as some
> of us assume-Sefaradi contribution anyone?



We bought our labels at the same store as everyone else. Red = meat, blue
= dairy. Cross-cultural marketing.


---sam

*********************


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