Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 146

Friday, November 19 1999

• Chabad Messianic Minyan
• Re: What was wrong with "what was wrong with the retraction"
• Re: RAW Derasha
• See Below
• Re: simplicity
• RE: Drush (was Down's Syndrome, hyperbole; Yitzchok had etc)
• Tzelem Elokim
• Re: top ten
• RE: Yitzchak revisited (V4#145)
• Re: Avodah V4 #145
• Re: Simplicity
• Re: Drush (was Down's Syndrome, hyperbole; Yitzchok had etc)
• Re: Yitzchak revisited (V4#145)
• Any Orthodox Critiques of Documentary Theory?
• Re: Rights
• Re[2]: Yitzchak revisited (V4#145)
• RE: simplicity
• Re: Simplicity & R.Twersky's recommended takanah
• Brisker Kulos
• Re: Simplicity

Even folks in the borderline category -- i.e., the Lubavitcher Rebbe and no 
other Lubavitcher Rebbe and no other person's Rebbe is Moshiach as a matter 
of doctrine versus hope is a distinct minority in Chabad especially outside 
of New York and a few other places.

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In a message dated 11/19/99 12:56:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< And the Chafetz Chayim? Should that have been discouraged?
 
 Sometimes anonymous posts allow a person to speak freely.
 (ask any reporter) 
  >>

Yes, just freely enough to be rude, insensitive, ad hominem, and inaccurate 
to boot.

Jordan 

In a message dated 11/19/99 3:43:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hojda@netvision.net.il writes:

<< It seems to me that discussions of whether the RAW derasha is a good chap 
or not, or whether it teaches a morally valid lesson about people with 
impaired mental function is somewhat beside the point. That is a subjective 
matter of opinion that is useless to argue about.
 
 The real issue, I think, is the boundries of good taste (or even heresy) 
when referring to our Avos Keddoshim. eg: Are they really any different than 
Joe down the block?
  >>

This is of course exactly the problem in discussing them. Rashi tends to say 
yes, they are different, but Ramban is certainly willing to point out their 
faults. 
Personally, I have always felt that I have nothing to learn from them if they 
were perfect. After all, we know that perfection to start with is not the 
ideal, otherwise God would have given the Torah to the Malachim. I feel I 
have a great deal more to learn from Avos who are imperfect, and therefore 
more like Joe Blow, or me for that matter. Surely the trials of their 
lifetimes force them to deal with issues that are at least on a par with 
mine. Sometimes they fail, sometimes they succeed, all the time I learn from 
them how to live my life. That's not too bad an attitude to have towards 
them, I think. 
BTW, that "Modern" Orthodox Rabbi you quote was unafraid to shed a harsh 
light on the Avos in his Chumash shiurim. (Now I have to go dig out my notes)

Jordan 

> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:09:36 -0800 (PST)
> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: chabad messianic minyan [mail jewish 30-11]
> 

>  
> My question was asked in reposnse to R. Elyashav's
> Psak. I don't really know what kind of Mashichists he
> was refering to.  But, by proccess of elimination,  we
> can assume that he wasn't talking about the
> boreinuniks because that Pashut.  The other
> categories, while they may be shtuyos, they do not
> necessarily constitute Avodah Zarah.  If he really
> said that you cna't count them intoa minyan, then it
> questions their very status as maaminim.  The Kusim
> were not consisdered Apikursim but rather quasi Jews
> which Chazal legislated halachos about how we were to
> deal with them in specific instsances.  I don't think
> we can extrapolate from kusim to Meshichists.
> In the case of this particular Meshichist-Mashgiach,
> on a personal level (I know him well) he is as
> honorable, Ehrlich, and Midakdek an individual as one
> can imagine; a real gentle person. But then again, so
> was Mother Teresa and we couldn't trust her hashgacha
> either.
> 
> HM
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 
the original posting on this subject said someone heard that Harav 
Elyashiv gave a prohibition and asked for more info.  I have still not 
seen anything further about what Rav Elyashiv said, but peopole are 
taking that possibility as fact before it is verified what he actually 
said.  WOuld it not be better to find out what he actually said first, 
before all these conjectures are being made.

> 
> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:29:14 -0800 (PST)
> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Extravegant Simchas
> 
> - --- Harry Weiss <hjweiss@netcom.com> wrote:
> > It is so hard to set a dollar value on Simchas, etc. there are so
> > many 
> > variable.  Why not have a way for the communities to set up a 10 or
> > 20% 
> > tax on all Simcha related expenses.
> > 
> > The money would then go into a fund to cover scholarships for
> > Chinuch.  
> > Every one will gain.
> 
> This doesn't solve the problem addressed by R. Twersky regarding
> those "middle-class" people who can barely get by because of the
> "requirement" of expensive weddings.
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe

My feeling was two fold.  First perhaps the additional costs of these 
simchot would result in some cutbacks.  also, a savings in the every day 
costs of Chinuch would result in some funds available for Simchot.

The fact is it is realisticly impossible to force people to cut back on 
simchot. (That is one the few advantages of living in the boonies, things 
are far far less extravegant.)  it is alot easier to require those in the 
business to tack on a tax.

In a message dated 11/19/99 5:53:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
moshe_feldman@yahoo.com writes:

<< Personally, I would not want any takanah to affect the number of
 musicians at a wedding.  :-)  They're the ones who encourage the
 ruach of the wedding, which is the most important aspect.
  >>

Just so long as we have that straight.:-)

Obviously you had not seen my follow up post when you wrote this.

 Jordan

(I've taken the liberty to quote this in corrected form #144/145) 
"He inappropriately manipulated sources and read in 
that which is neither containied in nor implied by the text; poor
rabinic practice, but one which at times has happened as a result of
genuinely good intentions.  That is a slightly unfortunate consequence 
of the imperfect condition called humanity.  We all make mistakes; 
we don't always deserve to be racked over the coals for them.  
My other pont was that had R. Weiss made his comments in the context
of a Yachad shabbaton, for example, in an attempt ot bolster the 
spirits of the participants, he would NOT appear as culpable as he is 
being described."

So it's OK to pass off Purim Torah as real when the listeners 
don't/won't know the difference?! 

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

The Nefesh Ha'Chaim, first sha'ar, defines tzelem elokim in a way that
precludes non-Jews from possessing it. It has to do with being hard-wired to
olamos elyonim, and thus impacting upon them with one's mitzvos and aveiros.
This does not preclude individuals with Downs, etc..

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

And I'd add to this his protege R. Dr. Joseph Kamenetsky.

It's arguable that outside of NYC, J. Kemenstky was the snilge biggest marbitz 
torah of the last 50 years

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


	Without saying which I would delete,  I would definitely include R' 
Shraga Feivel Mendelovitz.  What would Torah in America look like without 
Torah Umesorah?

Gershon

RRW (and others) seem to think that those who made a maachoh 
have  something against people w/ Down Syndrome - 

"When you equate calling Yitzchok Avinu as hving Down Syndrome
as being an inslt you do the following (IMHO)

Yitzchok=down syndrome=insult"

I disagree -  how about this:
Yitzchok = down syndrome
down syndrome = "easy to deceive, he lacks individuality, is 
                             spared grief, is compliant"

which does what, to say, the akeidah?

(leaving aside the fact that it's simply a bad drosha...)

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

i seem to recall an aggadic gemarra that says that avraham avinu was
a tumtum. does anyone recall where that gemarra is?
Rabbi Dov Weiss - 

Moshe Feldman <MFeldman@CM-P.COM> writes in v4n139:
:                                      I wonder whether there might be room
: for enacting takanot on a rotating basis (i.e., in the 1990s weddings, in
: the 2000s cars, etc.) so as to serve as a tool for education.

I think that during the late 90s and early 10s you'd find a lot of people
buying cars. The early 00s would see a lot of weddings, etc... If people
really want to spend money, they'll spend it in n-1 ways. I think your hope
is overly optimistic.

Going back to your comparison (deleted this time around) to mitzvos ma'asios
there's the famous story of someone who is malbin p'nei ishto for forgetting
to cover the chalah -- even though that's one of the lessons of covering
challah!

These things are tools that can be used for learning, not tools that guarantee
learning. The Gaon goes so far as to say "mitoch shelo lishmah" only includes
those things that are done lisheim "ba lishma". Clearly the Rambam, who uses
giving sweets to a child for reading chumash correctly as an example, would
disagree. But still, it's a tool that won't counter the person actually
being anti as opposed to neutral.

More likely, though, the takanah would become to complicated to ever get
followed. There's a reason for lo p'lug.

I have to agree though that the problem isn't primarily simachos. I'm 1-1/2
years away from my first bar mitzvah, and I'm already in the ought to be making
it but isn't category. For me, simachos are brissim/kiddushim or Upsherin.

Now the latter is REALLY a case in point. I'm making an upsherin in a week
-- and it isn't even my minhag! It's just de riguer amongst much of the local
community, and I'm the shepsileh who doesn't want to take on his wife to
violate that convention.

Although we're talking hundreds, not thousands, of dollars, I still think
it's relevent. In the Berger home, the problems with the budget are (in
descending order):

1- Chinuch.
2- A gazillion little things that come up (appliance repairs, a kid who likes
   making holes in the knees of his pants, etc...) These little stretches of
   the budget are what really keeps the bills from being met.
3- The summer. We found that a bungalo costs less than sending everyone to
   camp, but now that I have a 12 yr old, day camp, even in a bungalo, is
   "boring". Now what?


Now for the solutions:
1- We can't cut chinuch. So we're stuck with tuition costs.

2- I acutally convinved the local school's scholarship committee to offer
   courses in budgeting and personal money management. As I said, this is the
   biggy. I wonder how much of our economic woes is because of the amount of
   our population were raised during an economic boom period and don't have
   a mature perspective about money.

   What would REALLY help in this regard is a return to not expecting to be
   supported after marriage. My father and his peers wouldn't think of getting
   married before building a nest egg. My grandfather couldn't marry until 40
   because he had to spend his money getting his family out of Suvalk.
   Although that's admittedly an extreme case, it does show something about
   how Jews viewed marriage and money in the 40s.

   We should consider raising the average marital age.
   
   A couple is spending money and building bad habits before they know what
   it is to earn money. I know this was a MAJOR problem in my case. 

3- I don't know what to do about camp. It's like the upsherin -- how can I be
   the one bad guy when my family expects what their peers get? Is Rafi going
   to be the one classmate who isn't in sleepaway camp this year? What about
   his peers and camp? I'm pretty sure the money is coming out of chinuch
   expenses -- I'm pretty close to full tuition. Other people are relying
   on their folks. Ba'alei Teshuvah (probably 50% of Passaic/Clifton's frum
   population) actually did get married later and built off a nest egg.

As you notice, keeping up with the Cohen's need not be about ga'avah, but
about expectations. If my son thinks that sleepaway camp is the norm, it's
no longer a gift if I find the money for it -- I'm a grinch if I don't.
And who wants to disappoint his wife or kid?

Admittedly, my case is extreme -- 9 kids a mere 9 years after graduating,
two of whom are special needs (and special expenses). However, I couldn't
think of how to illustrate my points without drawing examples from personal
experience.

Shlomo Godick <shlomog@mehish.co.il> writes in the same digest:
: As far as limitation on clothes are concerned, the idea is not
: so far-fetched:  many schools in Israel enforce some form of
: "l'vush achid" to prevent kids from competing with each other
: over clothing styles and straining their parents' budgets.

Limiting clothing expenditures? As my wife is the active partner in a
children's clothing store, I have to say only "chas vishalom!" <grin>.
Seriously, this is the same problem as limiting weddings -- it doesn't
limit the money leaving the community as much as it affects parnosos
within the community.

Particularly as more and more schools switch over to uniforms, here in the
US as well. The two schools here in Passaic have uniforms for the girls, and
one requires uniforms for the boys as well. I expect the trend to continue.
So the primary expenditure is Shabbos clothes, which we do tend to buy from
each other.

Clothing is another good example of how keeping up with the Cohens is about
expectation. If I dress my daughter more shabbily than her peers, she feels
embarassed. It's not just one-upmanship, it's avoiding being the one person
down. One person alone can't change norms. Perhaps takanos are the only
way we could.

Sholem Berger <sholemberger@hotmail.com> comments:
:                       Combine this with the failure
: of some communities (i.e., the same ones with large
: families) to educate their children in a profession,
: and you see where the institution of takones might
: not be enough to address economic hardship.

I think it's unfair to blaim a lack of secular education. The median business
person can earn comparable money to the median professional. If this assertion
were really true, Chassidishe communities would have fewer gevirim (per capita)
than mod-O does.

Moving on to v4n141, Gershon Dubin forwards an email from Harry Maryles:
: Takanos of this type are wrong.

And yet takanos of this type have been codified into how we do kevurah. We've
already had the gemara cited for us -- there's plenty of precedent for spending
caps. I just have no idea what spending ought to be capped. I think semachos
are an easy target because they're big, but they aren't the cause of the
problem. (see above)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 19-Nov-99: Shishi, Vayetzei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 71a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Not at all.  I said something about the appearence of culpability i.e. the
severity of an offense in light of it's consequences.  I said nothing at al
about the propriety of any actions however.

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Baruch <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: Drush (was Down's Syndrome, hyperbole; Yitzchok had etc)


> So it's OK to pass off Purim Torah as real when the listeners
> don't/won't know the difference?!
>
> kol tuv
> Sender Baruch
>
>

Halevai that should be as fastidious in searching for the goodness in people
as you are in discovering the "evil that lurks in the heart in men."  A
little bit of calm at the precipice of a witch hunt is always helpful.

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Baruch <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 1:05 PM
Subject: RE: Yitzchak revisited (V4#145)


> RRW (and others) seem to think that those who made a maachoh
> have  something against people w/ Down Syndrome -
>
> "When you equate calling Yitzchok Avinu as hving Down Syndrome
> as being an inslt you do the following (IMHO)
>
> Yitzchok=down syndrome=insult"
>
> I disagree -  how about this:
> Yitzchok = down syndrome
> down syndrome = "easy to deceive, he lacks individuality, is
>                              spared grief, is compliant"
>
> which does what, to say, the akeidah?
>
> (leaving aside the fact that it's simply a bad drosha...)
>
> kol tuv
> Sender Baruch
>
>

In academic circles, the "Documentary Theory" (ie, that the Torah is an
edited work composed of parts written by four or more human authors)
appears to be almost universally accepted, and is generally discussed as if
it were as verifiable as a physical law.  Yet to my knowledge, no evidence
exists in support of this hypothesis; it is based on textual
"discrepancies" and variant styles.  Is anyone aware of a scholarly
Orthodox critique of this hypothesis?

Thanks!

Amirom Singer
m-singer@uchicago.edu

Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes in v4n141:
: It is a moral outrage to me that an individual's
: rights should be curtailed on the premise that it is
: for the greater good of society, when the greater good
: can be equally served without that curtailment. 

Rights? What are rights? We're talking Judaism, not American law. Halachah
and minhag are about duties, not rights. America's fixation on rights is
what lead it to being a society of entitelment, not moral responsibility.
There's a direct connection between America's legal theory and the current
rash of law suits, for a segment of society that isn't trying to get out of
welfare, etc.. Entitlement.

Or, to keep this diatribe somewhere near target for Avodah, let's use R'
E Dessler's terminology: The founding fathers defined law based on what
various parties should recieve. Society itself jumped the gap from receiving
to taking. Halachah is structured around giving. Even when it's a similar
law, there's a big difference between focussing on my right to property and
on my obligation not to steal.

And, as there's precedent for such takanos (see my previous post) it would
appear that your moral outrage is misplaced.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 19-Nov-99: Shishi, Vayetzei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 71a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Ok.  I'm ok when you show that labeling Yitzchok as DS diminiieshes his Mesiras 
nefesh during the akeido. this seems to be a very reaonslable objection.  Most 
of the objections were not so apparentyly reasonable and took for granted that 
the lable Down Syndrome depicts an inherent flawed persona.

I can tell you from experience that the D.S. people I know do have Bechiro, and 
are capable of Mesiras Nefesh from a very sincere though perhaps usnophisticated
"space".

wrt to pssing off Purim torah, all I can see is let's be more precise in 
criticms the genuine or potential flaws and not broachbrush everything as black 
or white

It's fine to say that R. Avi Weiss was careles in not making his disclaimer 
clear and it is ok to say that the idea of equating Yitchok Ovinu with a D.S. is
fallcious and misleading.  

However, the heat it generated was IMHO misplaced for 2 reasons: 
1) It seemd to make D.S.people something really aweful
2) It seemedto address more the inferences made from opponents of the article 
ratehr than the simple peshat in the article.

This seems to be a commonlu used tactic 
1) Project a spin onto the peshat
2) attribute that spin to the author himself 
3) attack the author. 

Perhaps a more fair and just technique would be to illict a clarification first 
before reaching for our collective cudgels.

I'm reminded of a "Brisker" story. In Beis Din shel Maalo the Rambam gets up to 
voice his opnion.  Immediately R. Chaim Brisker gets up and says "THIS is what 
the Rambam meant!"

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

RRW (and others) seem to think that those who made a maachoh 
have  something against people w/ Down Syndrome - 

"When you equate calling Yitzchok Avinu as hving Down Syndrome 
as being an inslt you do the following (IMHO)

Yitzchok=down syndrome=insult"

I disagree -  how about this:
Yitzchok = down syndrome
down syndrome = "easy to deceive, he lacks individuality, is 
                             spared grief, is compliant"

which does what, to say, the akeidah?

(leaving aside the fact that it's simply a bad drosha...)

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

--- "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM> wrote:
> 
> I was responding to RJH's separate argument that
> takanot will hurt those in
> the industry.  My response is that sometimes the
> individual must suffer for
> the greater good. 

I'm sorry but I disagree. Takanos are the wrong way to
go.  A takana will have to be accross the board to
include all income starta.  Imagine a Bal Habos going
hat in hand to a posek (who will of course, have to
submit it to the Moetzes, or some like body) asking if
he can invite 10 more people to his daughter's
wedding.  Can you imagine trying to justify this extra
person or that?  When  or how are we going to make
exceptions? Never?  It is unjust to impose new Takanos
on Klal Israel if there are other ways to attack the
problem.  I don't believe community education has been
diabused of it's entire potential. 

People need to be taught how to budget their money and
not to try and outdo the Joneses, (a Midah Garuah if
there ever was one). 

HM
__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Your point is well taken, but I do not believe that
> just because someone has 
> a great deal of wealth means he can spend it any way
> he wants, even if there 
> is a negative effect on the moral and spiritual
> character of the community.

I agree. But we need to be very careful about defining
what harms the moral and spiritual character of the
community. Unfortunately this is very subjective
thing.  I would rather err on thje side of caution and
underlegislate.  Lavishness should not define it.
Content should.(e.g.  "Titanic" themed Bat Mitzva).

HM
__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

I remember a story that the Brisker Rav was once derided by the local
anti-religious Jews as being too strict, and his response was a
tongue-in-cheek list of ten issues where he paskened leniently. The only
one of the ten which I remember right now, is his opinion that one does
not have to recite "Baruch HaShem L'Olam" in Maariv.

I've seen this list several times, but now I cannot remember where I saw
it, or what the other nine were. I think it might have been in a footnote
in the Journal Of Halacha And Contemporary Society once upon a time. Does
anyone have a reference?

Thank you and Good Shabbos

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
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--- "Lawrence M. Reisman" <LMReisman@email.msn.com>
wrote:
> The
> actual simchas were very, very simple.  Guests ate
> on plastic tablecloths,
> from plastic plates and with plastic utensils, and
> had paper napkins.  The
> service was by volunteers rather than professional
> waiters, and the food
> itself was exremely simple.  There was no
> smorgasboard, just cake before the
> seuda, and at the Bostoner-Bobover wedding, there
> was a one-man band.  The
> weddings themselves took place either in the shul,
> or in the case of Satmar
> in the Williamsburg armory.  Let's just say that if
> you or I made a wedding
> on the same scale, we would be talking about a total
> cost of $15-20 per
> guest for everything.


I think this is a great idea.  From now on we chould
only use paper plates and plasticware for all our
simchas.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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