Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 153

Wednesday, November 24 1999

• Re: Conspicuous Consumption
• Re: Rights
• Re: Conspicuous Consumption
• Re: Avos (was Retraction)
• Re: Avodah V4 #152
• living in Israel
• daat Torah
• Re: living in Israel
• Re: Simplicity
• Re: Simplicity
• Da'as Torah
• Re: Bitachon
• Re: Bechira
• Conspicuous consumption
• Re[2]: Tzelem Elokim and Women
• Re[2]: Conspicuous Consumption - Humor Alert
• Re: Avos (was Retraction)

--- "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
wrote:

> how exactly do we keep ourselves from
> raising our standards and
> expectations to the point that we have to go into
> debt to make a simcha or
> send our children to sleep-away-camp simply to avoid
> disappointment and even
> stigma for our children?  How exactly do we bring
> these expectations down?
> Mrs. G.Atwood.

The answer is "to thine own self be true".  
Never spend more than you can afford.  
Never go into debt.
Be mechanech your children to not be envious. Some
times it takes loving kindness.  Sometimes it takes
tough love. 
You start by setting an example. If that is too hard
define, then look to your own role models and follow
their example, and see how they raise their children.

HM
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--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> :HM said:
> :Judaism most certainly does discuss
> : rights. One big example is Meseches Bava Metzia
> which
> : is full of discussions about rights.
> 
> Yes, property rights. Which is the subject in
> question -- so I stand corrected.
> However, I don't think we generalize from ba'alus
> over posessions to rights
> in general. It may therefore be more correct to
> speak of ba'alus -- control
> over objects -- than to use the more general term
> "right".

I think at this point we are talking about semantics.
> 
> : But none of this takes away the right of an
> individual
> : to enjoy his wealth in any (mutar) way he sees
> fit.
> 
> Hefker beis din hefker. Ba'alus can be overridden by
> gezeirah -- an idea
> invoked often in Mes. Kesuvos.
> 
> Vihara'ayah, a parallel to the gezeirah you object
> to was already made 2
> millenia ago WRT kevurah. A point I raise again only
> because I believe
> it's a smoking gone that I haven't seen you address
> yet.

Yes this is true. But if I am not mistaken, all the
minhagim by Kevuros are strongly established minhagim
based on Chazal's perception of fairness at a
particularly vulnerable time in one's life.  I'm not
sure these were hard and fast Takanos. But, even if
they were, I don't think we cangeneralize and apply
these Takanos to other like scenarios.  Chazal could
have mad Taknos then against conspicouos consumption
in  ALL areas but I do not beleive they did.
> 
> My problem with a takanah is that I don't believe
> that simchos are the
> core of the problem, and I can't figure out how to
> legislate expenditure on
> luxuries in general. For that matter, the line
> between luxury and necessity
> is blurry anyway. People NEED (particular yechidim
> excluded) a certain amount
> of vacation time, access to "toys" and other
> recreation, etc...

With this I am in complete agreement.

HM
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--- DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> 
> (By the way, the Magnum is a revolver. It doesn't
> take a clip, which is 
> inserted in an automatic 

I'm so confused!

HM
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Right. I did not mean what you inferred at all.

I apologize if anyone else did draw such an inference. It would have been
the farthest thing from my mind.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <YitzW@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: Avos (was Retraction)


> *Ahem*
> RYGB - we've established in a previous post that one need not say "you're
an
> idiot" to insult someone. Perhaps we can be a bit more careful with
> insinuations and how other readers maybe interpreting them? I'm sure you
> didn't mean this how it sounded...
>     : (quoted by RYGB) As for me, I sing Mah Tovu ddspite it being utterd
by
>     : Bil'am.  I think there is a point to be learned there.
>     : (the response to the quote) That when sanctioned by HKB"H b'yad
Moshe
>     : avdo, even the words of resha'im become Torah, right?
>

None in paticular.  I was referering to the statement
in the mishne torah, hilchot malachim, which says that
it is better to live in Israel in a city filled with
avodah zara than to live in chut"z in a city filled
with talmedei chachamim.  i.e. the spiritual level of
the place isn't the issue.

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:41:16 -0800 (PST)
> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Simplicity (Aliah)
> 
> - --- ben waxman <benwaxman55@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > The reason one should move to Israel (if you
> beleive
> > that) is that one should move to Israel.  It is
> hard
> > to believe that the spiritual level here is higher
> > if
> > you are living in a city filled with avoda zara. 
> 
> Which city are you refering to when you say "a city
> filled with avoda zara"?
> 
> HM 
> __________________________________________________
>
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> > 
> > In terms of reducing ones cost, i have a simple
> > solution:
> > Move to israel
> 
> By this logic It seems that the financially prudent
> thing to do is to move to Israel.  
> 
> Two questions.
> 
> 1.  Why do the vast majority of Meshulachim I see,
> come from Israel?
> 
> 2. Why are the majority of these Meshulachim asking
> help for Hachnosas Kalla?
> 
> The Gashmius standard of living is still higher here
> than it is in Israel. Just because one or two items
> have reduced costs in Israel doesn't mean everything
> does.  Energy costs are higher as are Dira costs (as
> you pointed out). It seems apparent to me the the net
> standard of living is still higher here, or, to put it
> another way: Living in Israel at the same standard of
> living as the "States" costs you a lot more.
> 
> The reason to move to Israel is that the Ruchnius
> standard of living is higher.
> 
The Meshulachim are usually people in kollel who live off of
government stipends and have 10 kids. That is tough to do and
so they collect money mainly to marry off children
(of course there are Meshulachim for the many yeshivot).

However, as a professional I think that the standard of living after
accounting for yeshivot etc is higher in Israel. Of course, much depends
on how one defines standard of living. Part of my definition is that
I don't have to spend as much on all sorts of simchot, summer camp etc.
(though some of friends in Raanana have recently joined summer camps).

I think that much of the impression of Israel is left over from the early
struggling years of Israel. If I look around my shul (mixed israeli/anglo-saxon)
almost all of them are living very nicely with nice apartments and homes.
They dont buy the most expensive cars or change cars every 2-3 years but
that is exactly what Twersky is trying to eliminate.

Thus, in many ways life in Israel (again for a professional) is the life
that Twersky is trying to emphasize. To turn around and say that life in the
US is more luxurious is to miss the whole point of his article.

Eli Turkel

RYGB writes
> 
> There was a nice pair of essays in Techumin a few years ago. Perhaps someone
> with a set readily accessible can give you the reference. In my opinion,
> Rabbi Sherman, the DT advocate, won the debate, although his adversary
> scored an important point with an intriguing Tanya about not coming to him
> (the Ba'al HaTanya) for matererial eitzos.
> 
The articles I know are by R. Amicha and R. Dessberg in volume 11 and a
response by R. Shaanan in volume 12.

I have always claimed that the impact of articles in much less than we think.
Most people simply like articles that agree with their preformed opinions.
As Mechy and others have pointed out there are numerous other articles on daat Torah.
I am not sure anyone mention R. Feitman's article in JO.

As opposed to RYGB, I (naturally) liked the article by R. Amichai that showed
that rabbis do not generally involve themselves in nonhalakhic decisions.
R. Dessberg points out that many "political" arguments like exchanging land for
peace also involve halakhic problems and so a rabbi can/must give his psak.

In principle R. Dessberg is correct and I have no intrinsic objections to rabbis
giving political opinions as their psak (though I reserve the right to disagree).
However, lately it has become difficult to distinguish between politics and psak.
A prime example is several of R. Ovadiah Yosef's recent "psaks".
First he "paskened" that Aryeh Deri was not guilty of the crimes for which he is
standing trial. I find this very strange. I would imagine that on halakhic grounds
that R. Yosef would remove himself from a bet din judging Deri because of his
close relationship to the accused. Moreover, it is unlikely that he has access to
all the material of the prosecutor especially for trials that have not begun.
Hence, I am not sure on what grounds his psak was issued other than his personal
relationship to Deri.
More disturbing is R. Yosef's psak that moving a turbine on shabbat is permitted 
because of pikuach nefesh. As far as I know, his was the only psak that allowed
it on halakhic grounds. It becomes very fuzzy to distinguish a psak from what is
good for the Shas party.

As to R. Shaanan's article in techumim, I found it very disturbing. Due to lack
of time and space I shall mention only a few points though there are many more.

In several places he stresses the power (?) of chazal and that we follow them
against science. I find this disturbing given all the recent discussions of
nishtana hateva. Does he really advocate that a chicken without a heart is kosher
because it is not listed among the terefot? How about a 8 month fetus etc.
He quotes R. Kook that we still do metziza today. However, that is for other reasons
not that we dont believe science. Also some rabbonim do not insist on metziza nowadays.

He claims we follow chazal when they mention a rov or a chazakah that goes against
modern opionions because we don't believe modern science against chazal. I think
that is nonsense. While his coclusion is true it is not because we discard science
or modern observations but simply that we dont change statements in the talmud
when the facts change. Does he really believe that today people grind their own
medicines? However, that does not change the gezerah of taking medicine on shabbat.
(Tosafot in fact overrrule a number of gezerot such as dancing on shabbat,
mayim achronim etc on the grounds that it no longer applies - an interesting
discussion what is the difference).

R. Shaanan goes to great lengths to limit the halakha of relying on a doctor for
yom kippur. Rav Soloveitchik, for one, certainly disagrees as he generalized it
to listening to generals when it comes to political questions. R. Shaanan insists
that in general the opinion of rabbis overrides the opinions of experts in a
field which I find quite strange.
He also brings a proof from the statement in the Talmud that the sanhedrin should
be consulted before going to war. However, there is no indication that the Sanhedrin
entered into a political debate with the king over the tactics of the war.
Either the sanhedrin was informed so that could pray or else the sanhedrin acted
a representative of the general populace as to whether this was a popular war.
We have no indication that the Sanhedrin was a second political/secular power in
addition to the king (cohen gadol in the second Temple).

He concludes that when rabbis disagree than the final psak is given by "the" gadol.
I disagree with this entire concept (see for example Mahartz Chayot that rov does
not apply today). Of course, in real life, there is no such thing as "the" gadol.
Is he Rav Soloveitchik and one of his living students? or R. Eliyashiv or R. Yosef
or one of the chasidic rabbis or maybe the chief rabbi of Israel (why not of Britain)
is "the" posek by definition (as claimed by R. Herzog).

Hence, I found this article completely unconvincing and political rather than
halakhic in nature. I wonder how people on this list really want their rabbi to
decide about the shidduch of their children or to make business decisions for them
because gedolim know every subject better than anyone else.

Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel

--- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> > > 
> > > In terms of reducing ones cost, i have a simple
> > > solution:
> > > Move to israel
> > 
> > By this logic It seems that the financially
> prudent
> > thing to do is to move to Israel.  
> > 
> > Two questions.
> > 
> > 1.  Why do the vast majority of Meshulachim I see,
> > come from Israel?
> > 
> > 2. Why are the majority of these Meshulachim
> asking
> > help for Hachnosas Kalla?
> > 
> > The Gashmius standard of living is still higher
> here
> > than it is in Israel. Just because one or two
> items
> > have reduced costs in Israel doesn't mean
> everything
> > does.  Energy costs are higher as are Dira costs
> (as
> > you pointed out). It seems apparent to me the the
> net
> > standard of living is still higher here, or, to
> put it
> > another way: Living in Israel at the same standard
> of
> > living as the "States" costs you a lot more.
> > 
> > The reason to move to Israel is that the Ruchnius
> > standard of living is higher.
> > 
> The Meshulachim are usually people in kollel who
> live off of
> government stipends and have 10 kids. That is tough
> to do and
> so they collect money mainly to marry off children
> (of course there are Meshulachim for the many
> yeshivot).
> 
> However, as a professional I think that the standard
> of living after
> accounting for yeshivot etc is higher in Israel. Of
> course, much depends
> on how one defines standard of living. Part of my
> definition is that
> I don't have to spend as much on all sorts of
> simchot, summer camp etc.
> (though some of friends in Raanana have recently
> joined summer camps).
> 
> I think that much of the impression of Israel is
> left over from the early
> struggling years of Israel. If I look around my shul
> (mixed israeli/anglo-saxon)
> almost all of them are living very nicely with nice
> apartments and homes.
> They dont buy the most expensive cars or change cars
> every 2-3 years but
> that is exactly what Twersky is trying to eliminate.
> 
> Thus, in many ways life in Israel (again for a
> professional) is the life
> that Twersky is trying to emphasize. To turn around
> and say that life in the
> US is more luxurious is to miss the whole point of
> his article.
> 
> Eli Turkel

I didn't say that you couldn't live well in Israel. 
You most certainly can, if youv'eb got the bucks. Nor
did I say that one is required to have a "better"
lifestyle if he can afford it.  Furthermore the
standard of living is constantly going up and will
eventually catch up to the US. All I am sayiong is
that the Cost of Living, especially if you factor
everything including the massive unemployment rate, is
still significantly lower.  The examples you point out
are not a proof that Israeli residents are restrainig
their purchases any more than it is a proof that they
are limited in their expenditures by the very economic
conditions that are extant. 

HM

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Isn't there a G'mara that mentions something about it being preferrable to
live in Israel in a city full of Nochrim than elsewhere?

(rhetorical question warning).

Shoshana L. Boublil

-----Original Message-----

>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 05:58:39 -0800 (PST)
>From: ben waxman <benwaxman55@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Simplicity
>
>The reason one should move to Israel (if you beleive
>that) is that one should move to Israel.  It is hard
>to believe that the spiritual level here is higher if
>you are living in a city filled with avoda zara.

Thank you Kenneth for pointing this out.  There are actually many ways in
which every single one of us can reduce expenditures.  Most of them could
probably be considered as "toladot" of various mitzvot.  What they all share
is the idea of paying attention.

For example, there is a farm in Australia (AFAIK) where they only take out
the trash once a month (this is for the whole farm!) -- and the only thing
they throw out then are plastic products that they can't find a use for.
Just compare this to the amounts we all throw away daily.

I have reduced my own electric bills for heating and cooling the apartment
by just spending the time figuring out wind directions and sun levels at
various sides and how to create/prevent drafts according to my needs.

An interesting description of Chinese cooking (not the restaurant style) is
that nothing goes to waste.

Did you know that you can use carboard boxes (used in Israel to deliver
goods from groceries and green-grocers) as mulch for your garden?  It can
build up the soil better than a lot of commercial products.  You can save on
the water you use to water your garden (for those who have private homes) by
using biodegradeable soaps and grey water.

I could go on, but instead I will recommend, once again that people take the
time to visit the Permaculture related sites on the net, or look for a book
"Urban Permaculture" in your local library.   You would be surprised how
much savings can be accomplished following their ideas.

Shoshana L. Boublil
Israel

-----Original Message-----


>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:02:37 -0500
>From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
>Subject: re: Simplicity
>
>R' Micha Berger recently wrote <<< My problem with a takanah is that I
>don't believe that simchos are the core of the problem, and I can't
>figure out how to legislate expenditure on luxuries in general. For that
>matter, the line between luxury and necessity is blurry anyway. >>>
>
>Several other people have made similar comments. I would like to remind
>everyone that a main part of Dr. Twerski's article centered on the idea
>that simchas are indeed NOT the core problem. They are, however, a
>significant part of the problem, and just as importantly, they are a part
>that is most easily modified, at least when compared to the other parts.
>The following section is copied from Digest 4:136 --
>
><<<<<
>
>Before offering any suggestions for reducing the tension, a disclaimer is
>in order. My proposals will not deal with the issues of parnassa in
>general or the problems of increasing the earning power of members of our
>community. That is a topic worthy of serious discussion, in and of
>itself. But the problems outlined above will not be alleviated by
>marginal increases in wealth. And truly significant increases in earning
>power are not in the offing. We cannot and should not expect to produce a
>middle class with an average earning power of $150,000 per year.
>
>What can be done is to find ways to reduce expenditures. We have
>established that one area that cannot be cut is tuition. We are already
>operating our yeshivos on shoestring budgets. General modesty in
>lifestyle is certainly to be encouraged. But, to be fair to our middle
>class, the general lifestyle is relatively modest. The cost of housing is
>determined by the market. Unless we are to open up broad new
>neighborhoods in areas where housing costs are demonstrably less, we face
>fairly stable fixed costs. One area of our lifestyle must, however,
>undergo serious reevaluation. The cost of simchos of all kinds must
>undergo sharp and significant downsizing.
>
>The reasons are many. First, it is the one area of our lives where we can
>realize significant savings without impinging on basic lifestyle. Second,
>with the increased size of frum families, the total financial and psychic
>burden is crushing both for those who make the simchos and for family and
>friends who participate in them. Third, we can no longer close our eyes
>to the opulent Jewish simchos that constitute such obvious conspicuous
>consumption that they disgrace us all.
>
>>>>>>
>Ad kan Dr. Aaron Twerski

A few mareh mekomos off hand:

Nefesh Ha'Rav pp. 41-42: RYBS's beautiful explanation of the concept
underlying DT: "Me'uroso" (see the interesting Chasam Sofer story R'
Schachter cites).

Jewish Observer May '92: The essay is forgettable, but RYBS's hesped on R'
Chaim Ozer, translated from HaPardes 14:7 (the one Ha'Pardes in all of its
history that the HTC library does not have, so I have never seen the
original) also explains one of the other meanings of DT based on the
paradigm of the Kohen Gadol. (BTW, the bad name of DT probably stems from an
essay in the Oct '63 issue of the JO. I will avoid characterizing the essay
here).

Tanya Igros Kodesh 22: That Rebbes are not in the business of material
counseling.

Chazon Ish, Igros 1:15,33,182; 2:41,43; Emuna u'Bitachon 3:24: The concepts
elucidated.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

I wrote:

>>The Ramban (Iyov 36:7, Bereishis 18:9) and Rabbenu Bachya (Bereishis 
sham) offer a similar view as the Rambam.  The difference is that to the 
Ramban and Rabbenu Bachya hashgachah pratis is reserved for those who 
achieve dveykus with Hashem.>>

The correct source is Bereishis 18:19.  You have my apologies.

R. Steve Katz wrote:

>>A wise old liberal once said to me , as he was drinking heavily, that the 
only people who have freedom of choice (bechira) in matters of religion are 
people who were indoctrinated in a religion as children. Leon Wieseltier in 
the "Kadish">>

Isn't that the concept of tinok shenishba as it is used by many?  This is 
distinct from the Chazon Ish (and others) who say that nowadays when there 
are no nissim geluyim one cannot be an apikorus.

See the article in today's Haaretz criticizing today's consumer
culture.  http://www.haaretzdaily.com/htmls/kat10_2.asp

Kol tuv,
Moshe

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All kidding aside...

I think it is a fallacy to PROVE a halacho as MUST being one way.  This is IMHO 
an unattainable.

However, the process of lomdus used to prove something is intrinsically valuable

AND

we can weigh the competing proofs and base a decision on the shikul hadaas (sort
of analogous to the preponderence of evidnece principle in US civil law.)

IMHO we humans are way to fallible to prove anything beyond a doubt.  The 
elegance of a lomdusher proof is in the lomdus not it its conclusion.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

And even if that's not (okay, even though it isn't) what the Abarbanel meant, 
it's certainly a version of his lesson usable from within dirachim that
would appeal to 58th century Jews. Of course, it concludes the exact opposite 
of the original from the same diyuk in the pasuk. Which makes you wonder -- if 
you can prove two opposites, you've really shown you can't prove anything.

-mi

What?! and not keep up with the Schwatzes Goldbergs? etc.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

The answer is "to thine own self be true". 
Never spend more than you can afford. Never 
go into debt.
Be mechanech your children to not be envious. Some 
times it takes loving kindness.  Sometimes it takes 
tough love. 
You start by setting an example. If that is too hard 
define, then look to your own role models and follow 
their example, and see how they raise their children.

HM
__________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place. 
Yahoo! Shopping.

Besides the gedula of the critic, other factors need to be assessed before
determining the "credibility" of "avos criticism".  

The ramban was not standing on some moral high ground criticizing Avrohom
for the "imri na achosi" episode.  The Ramban's whole approach to ma'aseh
avos siman lebonim requires each episode recorded in breishis to be some
sort of omen for events in the future of am yisroel.  The conclusion that
Avrohom was choteh was a direct result of this approach, not a moral
judgement on his part.

Similarly the Ramban on "hatachas elokim ani, asher mana mimeich pri baten".
The Ramban there records the midrash criticizing Yaakov for not being more
sensitive to Rachel's plight not as a moral judgement, but to show why later
on the bnei Leah were subservient to yosef (chayecha asidin banecha laamod
lifne bnah... something like that).

When we do find criticism of the Avos in classical parshanut, it is always
because the parshan believes that the Torah is making this judgement, not
us.

The midrash Raba in veyetze says that when yaakov woke up in the morning,
and "vihenei hi leah", yaakov asked Leah why she deceived him, Leah
responds, am I any different that you?  You also fooled your father by
switching an older child for a younger child.  Here too, the parallel
between the two switches is so striking, that anyone seriously trying to
comprehend the chumash, cannot help but to compare the cases, decide the
latter is the result of the former, as recorded in the midrash.

Now do we need to conclude from the above the Yaakov did something wrong by
stealing the birthright?  Perhaps.  Or perhaps we need to conclude that even
justifiable actions sometimes have negative repercussions that must be dealt
with in the future.

Whether it is the Ramban, or RSRH, they are not critiquing based on their
own or even based on the halacha or yahadus' moral compass.  They are simply
interpreting the text according to their derech, which is meyusad beharaei
kodesh.  

Moshe

*********************


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