Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 168

Wednesday, December 8 1999

• Re: Re[2]: co-opting music
• Re[3]: The Tenth Man
• Re[3]: The Tenth Man
• Re: co-opting music
• RE: Israeli seminary expenses
• birkhat haroeh
• cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re: agunahs in baltimore
• Re: The Tenth Man, positive attitude
• Re: co-opting music
• Re[2]: co-opting music
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: Episcopalians, Evangelicals and all that
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: Fw: Episcopalians & the Earth
• Re: Re[2]: Problem kids - ADD
• [none]
• German Jewry
• Re: co-opting music
• Re: cynicism; agunot
• Re: German Jewry
• Re[2]: co-opting music
• problem children
• Is it on the Level

Contrast Chazan Wolpoes post with the well known 10 "takanot" of Chazan
Pinye Minkovsky.  Minkovsky was a prolific chazan in Odessa, and the first
cantor of the Eldridge Street schul in NY.  His life work was to maintain
the sacrd dignity of the contorate.  So great was his quest that he publicly
criticised in colleagues (most notably Gershon Sirota and Zawil Kwartin) for
singin liturgic melodies in concert and recording them.  He reffered to the
them as "the gronems who blow Judaism into a tube."  Another cute story
about him is that once he was posing for some photographs for his schul to
advertise that he was to be the chazan.  The photographer asked him to
smile; to which Minkovsky replied that since he is attired in his cantorial
robe, had and tallis, he cannot bring himself to act in so undignified a
manner as to smile.  Anyway, Minkivsky once authored 18 takanot for
chazanim.  One of them was that  a cantor never own a phonograph lest he
then begin to apply secular music into the liturgy.  Any halachik basis for
this idea?
DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 11:14 AM
Subject: Re[2]: co-opting music



> Realize that co-opting music in general and Jewish music in particular
could
> probably fill shelves.  It's a really fun topic
>
> Gutn Hannukah
> Rich wolpoe

An apology to Micahel Popperser is in order.  I thought this was a private 
reply. and it was not.  Please be mochel me.

A Gutn Hannukah,
Rich Wolpoe 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re[2]: The Tenth Man  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/7/1999 11:24 AM


I disagree with you 100%.

Let's leave it at that

Kol Tuv

Rich W.

> An apology to Micahel Popperser is in order.  I thought this was a
private
reply. and it was not.  Please be mochel me. <
Apology accepted, as well as your desire to not speak further on the
matter; I trust, however, that you don't mind further comments from others
(and I certainly don't).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

Two points:

1. The Rema's reference to permanent local tunes is Orach Chaim 619:1, and is 
rather less forceful than has been stated in this threads (no mention of 
"MiSinai").

2. As to use of tunes which are traditionally associated with idolatry, 
please see Shabbos 56a, in which the Gemara seems to frown on Shelomo 
HaMelech's lack of objection when Bas Paroh played idolatrous tunes, despite 
the absence of idolatrous context [and these were, apparently, wordless 
tunes].

Mordechai Torczyner
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:

> 
> Only *some* sems have American programs -- and the
> tuition isn't higher for
> the schools that don't.

This is a very interesting point and deserves
analysis. Does anyone know statistics that will
support the above?  How much of American programs
support Israeli programs, if at all?

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

For a discussion of birkat haroeh and mehadrin I suggest the sefer
Hegionei Halacha
by Yitzchak Mirsky (2 vol)
that has an in depth discussion of this issue and many other problems
in the chagim.

Eli Turkel

Gil Student comments, in digest v4n167,

> Freda Birnbaum wrote:
> 
> >>Hmmm... If I were a visiting Martian, with no axe at all, I'd wonder why
> they hadn't solved it by now.>>
> 
> If I were a Martian I would wonder why "the rabbis" are having
> anything to do with a matter between husband and wife.  I would also
> think that every time "the rabbis" are able to assist a woman would be
> considered a generous help rather than taken for granted.

1. "The rabbis", and the religion, are involved with every aspect of life.  
When one party is using the halacha to do an injustice to another party,
whether in business or in marital life, it is davka the business of those
in charge to fix the loopholes.

2. It is not "a generous help" for the police to catch criminals, for
judges to render judgments, etc.  It's their job.

3.  I'm not going to go so far as to say "if you're not part of the
solution, you're part of the problem".  No one can take on every single
cause, not everyone has the same legal knowledge, political skills, etc.
But stonewalling with the idea that "the rabbis" have been "dissed"
(disrespected) when demands are made for repair of inequities... that's
not a very impressive place for anybody to be.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"

> whether in business or in marital life, it is davka the
> business of those
> in charge to fix the loopholes.

But the aguna problem *is not* a loophole. The guy may be a creep, but we
*can't* force him to divorce his wife. And we *can't* just decide the
marriage was invalid.


> 2. It is not "a generous help" for the police to catch criminals, for
> judges to render judgments, etc.  It's their job.

But a rabbi is not a policeman or a judge, in the sense you mean.
Historically, yes, in a *Torah-based* society where torah law could be
enforced. Today, no.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

I am cholilah not excusing any  behavior (we can/should call it rishus) or crookedness on anyone's part. 
However, it appears from most of what I've read and heard that the modern day agunah problem is part and parcel of a bitter divorce process  - it's really about  getting back at the spouse, money, and winning - really no different than a bitter secular divorce but tremendously complicated by the severity of hilchos ishus. (Many cases I've heard about sound no different than the long and bitter divorce that my gentile co-worker went through) We are not dealing with rational people here.
For example see article in last week's Jewish Week - http://www.thejewishweek.com/jwcurr.exe?99120314 where it seems clear that a major sticking point was money.

and from the Ragen article - 
"When the alleged abuse began, Shifra asked the rabbi of the local yeshiva
what to do, and he told her to move out with her children...Despite charges of paternal child abuse..." For him it's not only a divorce, he's losing his reputation and his children.

Perhaps the listmembers who are involved in this parsha can give us some statistics as to percentage of divorces between frum people end in this situation and if this number is growing? 

kol tuv
Sender Baruch 

> From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> 
> <<< In my experience, it is important for those who live in communities
> where minyanim are frequently short to remember "holeich v'oseh - chosid"
> and not be frustrated when the "tsenter" doesn't show up. >>>
> 
> In *my* experience it is important for people everywhere to concern
> themselves more with their own mitzvos and the other guy's comfort.
> Disaster results when we rely on the other guy's attitude towards
> mitzvos, or insensitively remind him what his attitudes should be.

I agree with you 100%. I was only trying to make a personal observation.
That is, I have seen minyanim that got a minyan 80-90% of the time drop to
20% very quickly because every time they were one short, they stopped and
waited and almost everyone was frustrated whether the tenth eventually
came or not. On the other hand, I have seen minyanim continue for years
with a very low percentage eventually grow into strong minyanim. I have
seen that a positive attitude can make a tremendous difference, and that
is something I *try* to remember and even impart to others but of course
only by way of encouragement. I'm sorry if I was unclear or appeared
insensitive.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Pawshas@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: co-opting music


> Two points:
>
> 1. The Rema's reference to permanent local tunes is Orach Chaim 619:1, and
is
> rather less forceful than has been stated in this threads (no mention of
> "MiSinai").
>

Sounds from the Rema that it is only improper to change the accepted tunes
in each specific kehillo, not that there are specific tunes that must not be
changed period.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

FWIW that's the way I was taught, too.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: co-opting music 


Sounds from the Rema that it is only improper to change the accepted tunes 
in each specific kehillo, not that there are specific tunes that must not be 
changed period.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659 
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In a message dated 12/7/99 10:15:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Joelirich@aol.com writes:

<< Not a bad thing to be reminded of, No halacha here, just a gut feeling.
  >>
True enough. But we don't have to celebrate it.

Jordan

In a message dated 12/7/99 8:09:50 AM US Central Standard Time, 
TROMBAEDU@aol.com writes:

<< 
 << Chestnuts roasting on the open fire? >>
 
 Was not written by Irving Berlin. Try Mel Torme. >>

You're right. Mel Torme grew up in a thickly Jewish neighborhood on Chicago's 
South Side. Before they called him the Velvet Fog, the locals called him 
Schmaltz mit Gribenes.

David Finch

Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:

<<<
After the prev. series of msg. on the issues of environmentalism on 
one hand, and the connection with church personnel on the other, 
and esp. in view of the Episcopalian drive to christianize the jewish 
people, I think the following, which I got from another jewish list, 
should be of interest
>>>

I think that you are confusing the Episcopalians with the Sourthern
Baptists.  The latter are Evangelicals, the former (at least good old 
high church Episcopaleans) are most definitely not.  A bit like calling a 
proper old Jekke a Breslaver chosid.  At this point, I can see an 
almost limitless range of religious and ethnic stereotypes from which I 
might draw if I were to go for a cheap laugh, but the ideals of political 
correctness preclude any such self-indulgence.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !
!
!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

In a message dated 12/7/99 8:35:10 AM US Central Standard Time, 
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:

<< I am a great fan of Adeste Fidelis, Ave Maria, The Little
 Drummer Boy, and my favorite of them all. . .O Holy Night. >>

I've never understood Drummer Boy. On the old West Side of Chicago, drummer 
boys were underage kids who carried sample cases for older door-to-door 
salesmen. Before that, they were the 10-year-olds killed off by the hundreds 
leading Union troops to their doom in places like Shiloh or Chickamauga 
Creek. How either figure cuts a religious image is beyond me.

Ave Maria is not, to my understanding, an X-mas tune. It is beautiful, as 
long as you don't understand the words. Who was the guy with all the grease 
in his hair who used to sing that in every musical in which he was cast back 
in the 1950s, even if the movie had nothing whatever to do with anything 
related to the (alleged) Virgin Birth?

O Holy Night is my favorite, too. It's title, however, is "Silent Night" 
(Schtille Nacht, excuse the spelling). German imagery of total silence is 
hard for me to deal with.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/7/99 8:45:43 AM US Central Standard Time, 
gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

<< 
 Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that the Episcopalian are NOT 
 missionizers. >>

You are incorrect. They've turned over a new leaf. Why just the other day, a 
fellow from Onwenstia Country Club, up in Lake Forest, Illinois, asked me if 
I'd pony up $150,000 to join. I'd be the first Jew ever to set foot on their 
property -- the guy who used to deliver their eggs, someone named Schmuel 
from Skokie, had to park his truck on Green Bay Road and hand his crates over 
to the guard. But now, well, I guess they want Jews in there. I'm told its 
not worth it. No fish, no cream cheese, no blintzes, no chocolate on the 
sweet table. In fact, no sweet table. Just scotch and cheap Stilton cheese, 
which is mostly rennet and mold.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/7/99 10:34:37 AM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Spicey foods do NOT exacerbate ulcers?!?!
 
 What DOES excerbate mean?
  >>

I don't know what "excerbate" means.

David Finch

I want to remove from the list.

Can you do it ? 

Thank you

David Havin writes about German rabbis

<<  He praises their rabbis for their piety and
observance as well as being zealous in safeguarding the Orthodox character
of their synagogues...
Nevertheless, in the Rav's opinion German Jews lacked the knowledge of
Torah; the rabbis only knew a small part of the Shulchan Aruch and the Bible
and had but some slight knowledge of how to decide Halacha. >>>

There is a recent biography of Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer that discusses
some of this. First, the foreward to the book stresses that the authors
tried to be objective and not just write a "tzaddik" book and so they
bring the controversial features also (in contrast I am reading the
Artscroll history of 5 recent gedolim in which each one is perfect and
never involved in any arguments).
In particular they discuss the establishment of a yeshiva in Washington
Heights which was the "inovation" of Rav Schwab and the attitude of
German jewry to this ned institution.

Though Frankfort in this century until world war II did not have any
"real" yeshiva nevertheless many of the German rabbis were talmidei chachmim
though most of them received their education elsewhere. Several rabbis who
wrote shutim or chiddushim were R. Hildesheimer, Hoffman, Arukh Le-ner,
Seridei Aish etc.

Eli Turkel

But something about those carols makes me uneasy, like
>  its being shoved down our throats  so that we may be reminded just whose
>  country this is.

Perhaps you need to head east....   <g>

Seriously-  this is a dilemma.  Can we "redeem" these nigunim?  Can we put
frum words to them, or use them in an avodas Hashem context  (implying
they're in klipah noga), or do we say the source is impure and they cannot
be redeemed?  Would the latter apply to music specifically written for the
church?
How much does this depend on the kavannos of the composer-  (though in many
cases we can't possibly know that. )  Was Bach, for example,  consciously
dedicating his composition to Christianity or was he focussing on producing
some technically beautiful music for the customer, which just happened to be
the church, or the king or whatever.  Or is the purity or otherwise
determined by the established use of that music? How do we define "impure
source".?  The fact that the composer or artist was of Jewish birth doesn't
necessarily guarantee the purity of the source, sadly enough.
Myself, I love Tchaikovsky's works.

Mrs. G.A.

> Hmmm... If I were a visiting Martian, with no axe at all, I'd wonder why
> they hadn't solved it by now.

We have several issues here.

1) The plight of the women and their families.   I'm sure we're all
sympathetic.  This is not at all lessened by the following issues.

2)Disrespect of the Rabbis who are sticking to the traditional position of
"man divorces woman" and not vv.  Halachic answers have been sought-  this
has been pointed out.
Many rabbis involved in gittin go to great lengths to secure gittin from
difficult husbands. Many show great compassion toward the women involved.
Generally the community does support the women, and there are definitely
situations where the rabbis encourage the woman to go to the secular courts.
I can't speak for every community, of course, and I would certainly
criticize a rabbi who is being stubborn-  but we also need to be in
possession of all the facts.
Though, as my esteemed husband has pointed out,  rabbis are not in a
position to enforce halacha these days, (there is a jail term for assault
grievous bodily harm <g>) - IMHO a certain amount of pressure can and should
be exerted to procure the get.  This has been done in the past, sometimes
with success.
The situation is actually quite equal.  A man may not divorce a woman
against her will. She can also stubbornly refuse to accept the get.  Consent
is required from both parties.

3) Naomi Regan.  No further comment.

Mrs. G. Atwood.

I'm not an expert on this, but it is clear that a distinction should be made.

Before Reform:

Fankfort had MANY great talmidei chachomim.  I cannot possibly list them all but
the Haflo'o, R. Nosson Adler, Chasam Sofer as a child, etc.  Prfe-Reform 
Frankfort was not a big kehillo perhaps next to Vilna or Warsaw, but it was a 
very prestigious place for a Rav to be.

Post-Reform changed everything.  

Many simple Jews from the small towns remained frum or "traditional".  It was in
the main cneters where Reform held sway... 

Hirsch, and Breuer etc. were the anitdote for the more sophistaicated 
cosmopolitan Jews from Fraknofort and big cities who identified frum-keit with 
small-town thinkging.  They needed a moe intellecutal and challengingbrand of 
Yiddishket. It's a shame that Hirsch did not arrive about 40 years earlier, he 
might have formed a very strong solid German, Westernized Orthodox community 
that would have held its ground against Reform

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: German Jewry 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/8/1999 4:20 AM



David Havin writes about German rabbis


There is a recent biography of Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer that discusses 
some of this. First, the foreward to the book stresses that the authors 
tried to be objective and not just write a "tzaddik" book and so they 
bring the controversial features also (in contrast I am reading the 
Artscroll history of 5 recent gedolim in which each one is perfect and 
never involved in any arguments).
In particular they discuss the establishment of a yeshiva in Washington 
Heights which was the "inovation" of Rav Schwab and the attitude of 
German jewry to this ned institution.

Though Frankfort in this century until world war II did not have any
"real" yeshiva nevertheless many of the German rabbis were talmidei chachmim 
though most of them received their education elsewhere. Several rabbis who 
wrote shutim or chiddushim were R. Hildesheimer, Hoffman, Arukh Le-ner, 
Seridei Aish etc.

Eli Turkel

My opinion - there is music and there is music <smile>

Some music (EG Bach) seems to me to be a more pure approach to G-d and does not 
seem to have heavy Xtian-specific motifs

OTOH, take Wagner. Even his own grandson ("Twilight of the Wagners") finds his 
music unredeemable.  Some music just has too much "baggage" to redeem. 

Rich Wolpoe   


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
  Can we "redeem" these nigunim?  Can we put frum words to them, or use 
them in an avodas Hashem context  (implying they're in klipah noga), or do 
we say the source is impure and they cannot be redeemed?  Would the latter 
apply to music specifically written for the church?
How much does this depend on the kavannos of the composer-  (though in many 
cases we can't possibly know that. )  Was Bach, for example,  consciously 
dedicating his composition to Christianity or was he focussing on producing 
some technically beautiful music for the customer, which just happened to be 
the church, or the king or whatever.  Or is the purity or otherwise 
determined by the established use of that music? How do we define "impure 
source".?  The fact that the composer or artist was of Jewish birth doesn't 
necessarily guarantee the purity of the source, sadly enough.
Myself, I love Tchaikovsky's works.

Mrs. G.A.

I too think that the issue of JO on problem children is great.
I also have seen many families in which only one child goes "wrong"
and it is hard to believe that it is the parents fault. I recommend reading
the first article in JO by the mother of a problem child and what she
has gone through to try and help her child.

The fact that JO dedicated an issue to this problem does not at all mean
that this is a "charedi" problem. Similar problems appear in the MO world
and surely the secular world has many more problems with drug addicts etc.
So it is not fair to blame the charedi world for causing this phenomena.

However, there is one aspect that I do have problems with the charedi world.
In some (certainly not all or many) cases the families disown such problem
children because they cause problems for the family in terms of shidduchim
and also entrance into "better" yeshivot. 
When the Israeli army formed the charedi unit there where known cases of
families that disowned children that joined this unit and the army gave the
boys the status of soldiers without parents in Israel (gives them some
priveleges).
I have also heard several cases where parents have abandoned infants with
major problems because of the affect on the older children, again especially
the chances of getting a good shidduch.
The rabbis have spoken against this phenomena but social pressures count
for more than pronouncements of rabbis.

Eli Turkel

Q: what to do with Menorahs whose canldes have differing heights?
IOW a menorah that appears to be a descending or ascdning diagonal?

Rich Wolpoe

*********************


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