Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 179

Monday, December 13 1999

• Re: Silent vs Aspirated HAY in middle of Word
• Re: RCA pre-nup
• Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem
• Re: Bate dinim and corruption
• Artscroll Biographies (was Re: German Jewry)
• Re: Silent vs Aspirated HAY in middle of Word
• Homosexuality
• Episcopalians
• RE: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem...
• Re: Avodah V4 #177

RRJ Hendel,ASA wrote:

>>I promised Rabbi Teitz (and 1 or 2 others) to dig up my source for the 
concept that all HAYS are silent in the
middle of a word>>

I am way out of my league here, but I seem to remember that in the Mishnas 
HaGra, printed in the back of the little blue Otzar Sifrei HaGra, there is 
a different opinion.  In fact, I think that it says that both HAYS and 
CHETS are exceptions and are never silent in the middle of a word.

There is no case per se.  Having seen the form, I know that it is invaid.
NY case law requires that all agreements about the res marriage be executed
in a "form acceptable to be recorded as a deed."  They must have  an
acknowledgement page.  The form promulgated by the RCA contains no such
form.

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: <BDCOHEN613@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 10:52 PM
Subject: RCA pre-nup


>
>  >>   First of all, in NY, the RCA pre-nup, in it's current form is
legally
> >>unenforceable.  As a practical matter it does little to protect poor
wives.
>
>     Do you have a case citation in NY (or elsewhere) finding the RCA
pre-nup
> unenforceable?
>     Thanks
>     David I. Cohen
>

Were you to be more involved in this field, your below stated criteria would
disuqalify countless other dayanim.

----- Original Message -----
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: cynicism, agunot, solving the problem


>
>
> --- "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@zahav.net.il>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > When a Dayan says, off the record (which is why I
> > will _not_ mention his
> > name) that he is afraid for his "Olam Ha'Ba" and
> > therefore will _never_
> > pasken Chiyuv Get -- I wonder...
>
> IMHO such a "Dayan" is a coward and not qualified to
> be a Dayan.
>
> HM
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
>

Sadly, far too many dayanim are still corrupt.  Even one "bad" dayan would
be too many; but so many are.  The system creates the problem.  All dayanim
have to earna living, and therefore take fees for their services from the
ba'alei din.  Many, if not most dayanim are also congregational rabbis, and
most of them have their schuls in their homes (the "Boro Park shteibel
model")  I have heard of ba'alei din donating  money to a dayan's schul, or
to the yeshiva where he teaches, or to mosad that he heads etc.  In New York
it is not hard to find a friend of a friend etc who davens in the dayan's
schul who will approach  the dayan and express interest in the case.  Of
course there are even dayanim who outrightly make it known that they can be
bought.  Other dayanim, part of institutional batei din oftnetimes find
themselves constrained by the political agenda of that institution.  Until
the Jewish community in the US finds a way to creat fully neutral batei din,
this problem will never go away.


----- Original Message -----
From: <Chidekel@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 10:02 PM
Subject: Bate dinim and corruption


> Previous posters to avoda have written:
> : While I agree with Mrs. (Ms.?) Ragen's viewpoiny, I also have a more
basic
> : desire as well; for many rabbis involved in Gittin to cease being
corrupt.
>
> >The overwhelming majority aren't -- not that Daniel claims they are, I
> >just want the obvious stated.
>
> This opens up a very painful topic, which most are reluctant to address,
and
> concerns about lashon hara make it even more difficult.   I have no
personal
> knowledge of bate dinim,  and many bate dinim are known for the integrity
of
> their members.
>
> However, see the biography of rav moshe included in the hakdama to the
last
> volume of igrot moshe (pp 23-25). The story is told there that in the
1940s,
> when rav moshe was dan l'amito shel tora, rather than for the people who
> hired him, he was called "m'shune" by leaders of the Agudat Harabanim, and
> this incident received much publicity. This suggests that at least at that
> time, such integrity was not viewed as commonplace.
> Later in life, because of corruption, he and Rav Kotler decided not to sit
> with many dayyanim (most of whom were from Europe)in z"bla bate dinim, and
> indeed, Rav Feinstein almost stopped sitting in bate din altogether.
> This  suggests that the extent of corruption was far greater than we are
> willing to admit, and was not just a few, rare cases.  I hope that the
> situation has improved since then, but R Schwart's comments from "the
> battlefront" suggest otherwise.
> Meir Shinnar

On 8 Dec 99, at 11:20, Eli Turkel wrote:

> There is a recent biography of Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer that discusses
> some of this. First, the foreward to the book stresses that the authors
> tried to be objective and not just write a "tzaddik" book and so they
> bring the controversial features also (in contrast I am reading the
> Artscroll history of 5 recent gedolim in which each one is perfect and
> never involved in any arguments).

I have the feeling that you are categorizing all Artscroll biographies 
as decribing their subjects as "perfect and never involved in any 
arguments. In all fairness, while there are certainly Artscroll 
biographies that give that type of impression, there are others that I 
found (or am finding) to be a bit more honest. The biographies of 
Rav Hirsch (which I am currently reading) and Rav Yaakov come to 
mind.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 13 Dec 99, at 10:16, gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:

> RRJ Hendel,ASA wrote:
> 
> >>I promised Rabbi Teitz (and 1 or 2 others) to dig up my source for the 
> concept that all HAYS are silent in the
> middle of a word>>
> 
> I am way out of my league here, but I seem to remember that in the Mishnas 
> HaGra, printed in the back of the little blue Otzar Sifrei HaGra, there is 
> a different opinion.  In fact, I think that it says that both HAYS and 
> CHETS are exceptions and are never silent in the middle of a word.
> 
> 

I was also taught to pronunce all HAYS in the middle of a word as 
MAPIK HAYS, but the person who taught me that said he had no 
source for it.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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In the discussion of homosexuality most of the posters (with the =
exception of R. Wolpoe) seem to confuse the affect/desire and the act.  =
It is clear that the sexual attraction to males is in part innate and =
involuntary, though learned experiences can enhance it (this is one of =
the reasons why the current campaign by homosexuals to convince =
bisexuals that they are "naturally" homosexual is both dangerous and =
reprehensible).  There are many sources that make clear that the Halacha =
would not regard one as responsible for a feeling that he cannot help =
having.  On the other hand, it is clear that the Torah does regard us as =
responsible for either acting in ways that increase prohibited feelings =
of failing to act in ways that could control them. =20
Homosexual actions, on the other hand, are always the result of some =
voluntary behavior, though at times one that is hard to control.  It is =
important to note that the degree of "involuntariness" in a homosexual =
act propelled by sexual desire is no greater than in a heterosexual act. =
 Homosexuals who commit chiyuvei misah are in the same legal boat as men =
who commit adultery with married women.  While they may have fewer =
Torah-true choices (a heterosexual can marry, after all) they do have =
choices which are at most much less severe issurim.  In response to one =
poster, it is self-evident that there are homosexuals within the frum =
community and that they struggle with this problem.  While I hesitate to =
generalize from clinical experience (even 30 years worth), my sense is =
that the substantial majority of observant men with predominantly =
homosexual leanings do exactly what homosexual males did until =
relatively recently in Western society.  They marry, father children and =
live standard family lives, accepting that they have not been able to =
fully enjoy one aspect of human pleasure.

One must also note that many people with homosexual desires are clearly =
bisexual and are capable of having pleasure from heterosexual =
intercourse, though less than from the alternative.  Such people can be =
helped to live relatively satisfactory sexual lives with a minimum of =
sexual tension. =20

Melech=20

M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the discussion of homosexuality most =
of the=20
posters (with the exception of R. Wolpoe) seem to confuse the =
affect/desire and=20
the act.&nbsp; It is clear that the sexual attraction to males is in =
part innate=20
and involuntary, though learned experiences can enhance it (this is one =
of the=20
reasons why the current campaign by homosexuals to convince bisexuals =
that they=20
are "naturally" homosexual is both dangerous and reprehensible).&nbsp; =
There are=20
many sources that make clear that the Halacha would not regard one as=20
responsible for a feeling that he cannot help having.&nbsp; On the other =
hand,=20
it is clear that the Torah does regard us as responsible for either =
acting in=20
ways that increase prohibited feelings of failing to act in ways that =
could=20
control them.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Homosexual actions, on the other hand, =
are always=20
the result of some voluntary behavior, though at times one that is hard =
to=20
control.&nbsp; It is important to note that the degree of =
"involuntariness" in a=20
homosexual act propelled by sexual desire is no greater than in a =
heterosexual=20
act.&nbsp; Homosexuals who commit chiyuvei misah are in the same legal =
boat as=20
men who commit adultery with married women.&nbsp; While they may have =
fewer=20
Torah-true choices (a heterosexual can marry, after all) they do have =
choices=20
which are at most much less severe issurim.&nbsp; In response to one =
poster, it=20
is self-evident that there are homosexuals within the frum community and =
that=20
they struggle with this problem.&nbsp; While I hesitate to generalize =
from=20
clinical experience (even 30 years worth), my sense is that the =
substantial=20
majority of observant men with predominantly homosexual leanings do =
exactly what=20
homosexual males did until relatively recently in Western society.&nbsp; =
They=20
marry, father children and live standard family lives, accepting that =
they have=20
not been able to fully enjoy one aspect of human pleasure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One must also note that many people =
with homosexual=20
desires are clearly bisexual and are capable of having pleasure from=20
heterosexual intercourse, though less than from the alternative.&nbsp; =
Such=20
people can be helped to live relatively satisfactory sexual lives with a =
minimum=20
of sexual tension.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Melech </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>M. Press, Ph.D.<BR>Professor of =
Psychology, Touro=20
College<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:mpress@ix.netcom.com">mpress@ix.netcom.com</A> or <A=20
href=3D"mailto:melechp@touro.edu">melechp@touro.edu</A></FONT></DIV></BOD=
Y></HTML>

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> > >>and esp. in view of the Episcopalian drive to christianize the jewish 
> > people>>
> > Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that the Episcopalian are 
> > NOT missionizers.
> 
> you are correct.  the episcopalians are the american version of the
> anglican church, and they're one of those waspy bingo on wednesdays
> type of churches.
> 
> it is the southern baptists who are trying to convert the jews,
> hindus, etc.

True, but with a quibble... AFAIK, Episcopalians are not particularly
famous for (or stereotyped as playing) Wednesday bingo.  That's the
Catholics. (Again, a stereotype.)

Most of the conversion-aiming Christians I've met have been evangelical
Protestants but not Episcopalians or Catholics.

Freda Birnbaum

> contempt of court orders where possible. All of these methods
> HAVE worked. We just don't pursue them a lot of times (I haven't
> seen ANYONE pursue them in Israel).

I've seen a minyan walk out of the Meah Shearim Steibalach...

> Does anyone have a clue how large a class we are talking about?
> And while I am playing lawyer, how are we defining "aguna?"

According to an article in the Jerusalem Post a while back, there are about
500 women whose husbands refuse to give a get in Israel.

Including one man who has sat in prison for 30 years for refusing to give
the get.

>
> I don't think there are any easy workable solutions.

Because each solution *has* to be for the specific case.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

Why would you offer such an opinion humbly? When members of all orthodox
kehilos finally demand that their dayanim and rabonim start taking their
obligations seriously, we stand a chance of making a real change for the
better in the agunah (and general bais din) situation.

BTW, on the subject of who is hurt by the agunah problem, I would like to
offer the possibility that we can hurt by this problem in several ways.

# 1 How many of us have family or friends who are in bad marriages and are
afraid to push their spouses to seek professional help for fear of ending up
trying to receive a Get from a m'again?

# 2 Can any of us really be sure without a constant chesbon hanefesh that we
are not treating our spouses with even 1% less courtesy, dignity, respect,
tenderness, etc.,  because we have become even mildly callused by the
overall degradation of the institution of a Jewish marriage and a Jewish
home brought on by the open-air circus atmosphere now know as bais din?

# 3 Haven't we all become less sensitive to the plight of other human beings
(and therefore less humane and less worthy of the title Jew) by the
frequency with which we hear of agunos and the inability/refusal of Orthodox
institutions to resolve the problem.

# 4 Will we still ask 'who is being hurt' when thanks to Emanuel Rackman
there are (as will be the case in 20 - 25 years) hundreds, if not thousands
of marriage age boys and girls who's status is at best in doubt? Let us be
frank, it is the establishment's inability/refusal to effectively use social
sanctions and to recognize the need for a uniform and comprehensive pre-nup
which has opened the door for Rackman & Co..

#  Lastly, can you really dance at your daughter's wedding with the same
unfettered joy s you could before Rabbi HaKatan revealed to the world his
gift for unusual applications of dormant halachic technicalities.

*********************


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