Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 190

Wednesday, December 15 1999

• Re: Agunot, etc.
• xmas & Jesus & baseball
• Mechiras Chometz
• re: Agunot, etc.
• Re: expenses / Israel
• RE: Avodah V4 #148 Consumption
• Breslov and Tur Beis Yosef
• Daily Lift #451 Feel Spiritual Pleasures
• Re: Tur BY
• Re: Tur
• The Duhlberg girls
• Re: Daily Lift #451 Feel Spiritual Pleasures
• Re: Avodah = Hisbonenus
• re: Agunot, etc.
• Re[2]: Daily Lift #451 Feel Spiritual Pleasures
• Re[2]: Avodah = Hisbonenus
• Re: Avodah V4 #173
• Apologies
• Chassidus vs. other approaches
• men who don't like women
• humor alert
• Tur
• Cell phones
• women and funerals

In a message dated 12/15/99 12:42:45 PM US Central Standard Time, 
shlomog@mehish.co.il writes:

<< Mechiras Chametz may be a legal workaround, but I don't think it
 can properly be called a legal fiction.  The sale is very real.
 One is told to be m'khaven to sell the *chametz* on his pots and
 not the pots themselves, lest he have to be tovel and mag'il the 
 pots after Pessach.  >>

Is there really a difference between a legal fiction and a "workaround" in 
this situation? How does one establish a meaningful market value for the 
chametz on the pots minus the pots? Does such chametz even have a value, 
apart from the courtesy shown by the so-called purchaser? Perhaps it is 
Shlomo's point that the "value" that creates the genuineness of the purchase 
is the avoidance of any need to be tovel and mag'l the pots after the 
holiday. That creates value to the seller, maybe, but it hardly creates value 
to the buyer. Without value to the buyer, how is there a genuine sale?

I'm not sure that there really is a down-to-earth practical difference 
between a legal fiction and a workaround in most contexts. A workaround, as I 
understand the term, is a halachic loophole that allows one to adhere to the 
words of halacha, and maybe even its spirit, where it would be impracticable 
or even impossible to carry out the requirements literally. A legal fiction 
is somewhat more abstract and symbolic, like kinyan chalifin with a 
handkerchief or fountain pen. Legal fictions, at least as I understand them, 
are endorsed by Torah, if not exactly created by it -- they are logical 
devices used in Gemorrah to fit all the pieces together. Workarounds have 
more prosaic origins, and may or may not be Torah-true. But to the extent 
they are accepted by the rebbonim and followed by the community, they are 
sort of balebatish equivalents of legal fictions that serve almost identical 
purposes.

If I have this wrong, someone please correct me. Thanks.

David Finch

How about the 2 greatest home run hitters in Baseball history

Ruth & Aaron?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: xmas & Jesus 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/15/1999 1:21 PM


In a message dated 12/15/99 11:53:42 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< Actually, I think it's pronounced "Hayzoos" in the Heights. :-)  >>

And in the National League. The three Alou brothers were Felipe, Matty, and 
Jesus. Now there's Moises Alou, of the next generation, known accurately 
among his Jewish fans as Moishe. Alas, there's no Yankel Alou (although I 
believe one of the Alou brothers played for the New York Yankels.) 

David Finch

wrt chometz, I continually empaphasize to my shul that it is a REAL sale

It's analogus to a stock trade that is official at one gvien time and iti is 
"settled" later.  IOW I can buy shares of stock AT TODAY'S price and pay for it 
next week eventhough the price has fluctated w/o borrowning on margin etc.

And if in the meantime I Sell the stock at{BEH: a profit; then it is considered 
as if I leaggly woned and sold it for a capital gain.  This is not reall a legal
fiction; rather it is mroe a legal abstraction.

The  objection to this legal abstraction is - imho  -due to the lack of 
sophisticatoin of the average perons who feels it is a ha'aronmo.  And that is 
perhaps the motivating factor behind those who insist on any mechiro as being 
l'olomis w/o intention of buying it back.

Those of us who buy stock or real estate and flip it w/o ever taking possession 
are certainly aware of how this is all legal but not tangible.  There is an 
abstraction w/o mamoshus at work

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Mechiras Chametz may be a legal workaround, but I don't think it 
can properly be called a legal fiction.  The sale is very real. 
One is told to be m'khaven to sell the *chametz* on his pots and 
not the pots themselves, lest he have to be tovel and mag'il the 
pots after Pessach. 
<snip>

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick

Shlomo Godick wrote:
>David Herskovic wrote:  <<

>And Pruzbel is only one example. There is mekhiras khomets, heter iske,
>eyruv which all create fictional halakhic entities to solve seemingly
>insuperable problems.  >>

>Mechiras Chametz may be a legal workaround, but I don't think it
>can properly be called a legal fiction.  The sale is very real.
>One is told to be m'khaven to sell the *chametz* on his pots and
>not the pots themselves, lest he have to be tovel and mag'il the 
>pots after Pessach. 

Whether mechiras chametz is real or not is probably a debate between the
Tvuos Shor and the other acharonim.  The tvous shor in pesachim only allows
mechiras chametz to circumvent what would be an issur derabanan (e. g.
owning chametz after bitul) but not an issur Torah (having chametz fed to
"sold" animals).  From his language it seems he believes that the whole
mechira is a sham.

Most other acharonim, reject his approach, asserting that mechiras chametz
is a bona fide sale.

Moshe

On 29 Nov 99, at 5:40, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/29/99 3:22:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> shlomog@mehish.co.il writes:
> 
> << 
>  Most haredi yeshivot I know of (high school and post-high-school) 
>  collect $130-140 per month tuition (including dormitory).
>  Private elementary school ("cheder") in the haredi community runs
>  about $50 per child per month (with slight discounts for more than 
>  one child).  I should add that the above relates to the Litvishe 
>  community and I have no idea if the figures for the Chassidishe 
>  community are different.
>  
>  Elementary and high school education for girls is free.  I do not know
>  how much post-high-school "seminar" for girls costs.
>  
>  That is still quite an order of magnitude less than tuition in the U.S.
>  
>  Kol tuv,
>  Shlomo Godick
>   >>
> It's interesting how our discussions always come full circle.  Are these 
> lower costs in Israel due to relatively lower input costs (labor-teachers? 
> Capital-buildings? ) or leverage (higher student teacher ratios?) or outside 
> subsidies(Askanim? the State?). 

They're due to all of the above. Teachers here make less than 
teachers in the States, although it is not of the order of magnitude 
of other professions AFAIK. The buildings here are MUCH less 
luxurious than those in the States. The leverage here IS much 
higher - typical class size is 35-40 versus 20-25 in the States. And 
the State heavily subsidizes most education here.

Then again, we pay a much higher tax rate than you do in the 
States (50% + health tax + national insurance bring us up to 
around 60% not counting the 17% VAT and on everything we buy 
and high customs duties on most items) and we hit the highest 
marginal brackets much more quickly than you do (we hit 50% at 
about $4000 a month).

What are the societal implications of such?  

Too long to answer al regel achas. I will try to address it if people 
are interested, but as usual it will be MNSHO :-) 

> It may be positively cultural differences allow the same educational result 
> with fewer teachers) or negatively throw out troublemakers early on) 

Education is only compulsory here through eighth grade.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 29 Nov 99, at 8:15, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > How we draw the line between "neccesary and leshaim ta'avah
> > is something
> > I would very much like to hear from avodah members about.
> 
> Do you *need* that item. If not, it's a luxury.
> 
> $2000 Tefillin would be a luxury, since you can meet all halachic
> requirements for less.

Yes, but $2000 tfillin at least fulfill a hiddur mitzva, which is zeh 
Kaily v'anveyhoo, so I'm not sure I'd place them (or a $100 esrog for 
that matter) in the same category as making an expensive wedding 
or lehavdil buying a Ferrari.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

<<< ... i once witnessed the tragic descent of one of the brightest
member of our shiur into Breslover Chassidus. From a brilliant analytical
approach he ended up learning Tur Beis Yosef large amounts of time
because the Beis Yosef was written b'ruach hakodesh. >>>

Oy va'avoy!!! What a disaster! A shandah! (Personally, I stopped learning
Tur Beis Yosef a long time ago. What a waste of time it was!)

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Recent wisdom from R. Zelig Pliskin, Perhaps timely to those of us who need to 
master the ability to "channel"  their desires?

R Wolpoe

DAILY LIFT #451   Feel Spiritual Pleasures

A person can easily feel the pleasure of giving into negative 
desires. When a person finds it difficult to overcome his desires, 
it is because he lacks an equal feeling of pleasure in spiritual 
matters. 

So to overcome negative desires, we need to feel the pleasure of 
Torah study as a balance. That's why the prayer recited daily for 
the mitzvah of Torah study asks to feel the sweetness of Torah 
study. 

(Lev Eliyahu, vol.1, p.177; see Rabbi Pliskin's "Gateway to 
Happiness," p.98)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Eli Turkel wrote:

> I am not sure where it comes from that it was written beruach hakoseh. 
> I have only seen that that R. Karo learned Mishna with an angel which is
> not the same. 
> 

I believe that was the proof that it was written b'ruach ha'kodesh.

> In any case, I don't understand what is wrong with concentrating on the
> Tur and Beis Yosef. It is said that Chazon Ish spend much of his youth
> studying Tur and beis Yosef and others claimed that because of that
> he would never amount to anything!
> 


I deeply apologize for the misimpression I created. He *only* learnt Tur
BY and that at a breakneck pace (as the Breslovers advise in learning
beki'us) in order to take iin the kedusha as opposed to analyze shema'ata
aliba d'hilchasa.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

RYGB wrote:

>>From a brilliant analytical approach he ended up learning Tur Beis Yosef 
large amounts of time because the Beis Yosef was written b'ruach 
hakodesh.>>

RE Clark wrote:

>>I am not sure where it comes from that it was written beruach hakoseh.
I have only seen that that R. Karo learned Mishna with an angel which is
not the same.>>

I think the maggid told him that everything in the Beis Yosef and Kessef 
Mishneh are correct.  Does anyone have a Maggid Meisharim to check?

An english translation of the sentence in this case (the italian court case)
is present at:


http://www.igaion.com/sentenzaing.htm


Shoshana L. Boublil

In a message dated 12/15/99 2:50:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 So to overcome negative desires, we need to feel the pleasure of 
 Torah study as a balance. That's why the prayer recited daily for 
 the mitzvah of Torah study asks to feel the sweetness of Torah 
 study. 
  >>
and what of individuals who don't feel pleasure from learning but do it 
anyway because it's the ratzon hashem?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In v4n170, Joe Markel <moshiach@nauticom.net> writes:
: Hisbonenus is essentially the idea of looking intensely
: into the depths of a topic and going over it a lot and
: examining it from different perspectives until
: one understands it clearly with all its parts in
: particular detail.

According to R' Aryeh Kaplan as well as contemporary Breslov practice, R'
Nachman defined "hisbonenus" to be meditative contemplation in particular.
This definition is vague enough to encompass anything from meditation to
Brisker lomdus.

Particularly looking at the next line:
:             ... which is called in the language of the
: Talmud Iyun ...

: For instance someone who looks with his eye at some object
: but only in a superficial manner, so that after some
: time he will certainly forget about it completely and will
: not be able to tell someone else about it other than vague
: generalities.

I noted this morning the origin of the word "lihistakeil". As far as I can tell
the word is from the Aramaic root "sachal" (with a samech) which is derived
from the Hebrew "seichel" (with a sin). It would therefore appear that
"lehistakel" most literally means "to cause oneself to contemplate". It's as
much about seeing as shemi'ah is about hearing. "Lishmo'ah" is to listen
and accept. Listakel is to look and contemplate, but (interestingly) not
necessarily accept. I wonder what this connotes about sight vs sound, since
the former is considered the more certain source of information.

Looking at his footnote:
: *NOTE - Musag = the idea in Binah.
:         Muskal = the idea in Chochmah

Note that seichel is closely related to chochmah. Not surprising when you
compare Nusach Sepharad's "chochmah binah voda'as" with Ashkenaz's "dei'ah
binah vihaskel".

So, whereas the reflexive of binah is hisbonenus, the reflexive of attempting
chochmah is histaklus. I have no idea what that means, either.

However, something is suggested by his paragraph:
: As one who looks at something with his physical eye and
: not just glancing over it but with an open eye and deep
: looking for a long time till he knows this (physical
: object) well with all its inner parts and inner innerness
: (like inside workings).

Although he then continues:
: And this is what's called Hisbonenus with a double Nun
: specifically. (two N's -hisboNeNus the same root as Binah)
: that is , that he thinks into the thing and looks at it a
: lot.

Unlike what I'm saying, which appears to marry looking with chochmah, not
binah. Maybe it's chochmah shebibinah, which he discusses later, but I'm
too ignorant of the subject to do more than raise questions.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 15-Dec-99: Revi'i, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 84a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 8

RS Godick wrote:

>>On the other hand, the seriousness of the sale of EY to a non-Jew
for the heter mechira is very questionable and that is why it is so
controversial and not accepted by large segments of the dati and
hareidi population>>

I believe that the seriousness of the sale is not the issue but the 
efficacy of such a sale.  According to the many machmirim, the sale is 
either invalid or does not remove the mitzvah of shemitah.

And I was wondering: Do things like tefillo or other mitzvos count the same way,
too! 

EG lighting Ner Chanuko followd by singing.....

Rich W.



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

<< 
 So to overcome negative desires, we need to feel the pleasure of 
 Torah study as a balance. That's why the prayer recited daily for 
 the mitzvah of Torah study asks to feel the sweetness of Torah 
 study. 
  >>
and what of individuals who don't feel pleasure from learning but do it 
anyway because it's the ratzon hashem?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Source please

I thought that R. Nachman taught Hisbodedus
while the Baal Hatanyo taught Hisbonenus.

Whilt both get translated into English as meditation they are quite distinct 
techniques.

And it would news to me if R. Nahcman referred to Hisbonenus by name

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Avodah = Hisbonenus 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/15/1999 4:02 PM


In v4n170, Joe Markel <moshiach@nauticom.net> writes:
: Hisbonenus is essentially the idea of looking intensely 
: into the depths of a topic and going over it a lot and 
: examining it from different perspectives until
: one understands it clearly with all its parts in 
: particular detail.

According to R' Aryeh Kaplan as well as contemporary Breslov practice, R' 
Nachman defined "hisbonenus" to be meditative contemplation in particular. 
This definition is vague enough to encompass anything from meditation to 
Brisker lomdus.
<snip>

-mi

:> The phrase often touted by the Ortho-femme's is: "When there is a
:> rabbinic will there is a Rabbinic way." Well, I'm sorry the Torah is
:> not that malleable.  Suppose all of Klal Israel decided to worship
:> Avodah Zarah.  Should the Rabbis find a rabbinc way?  Pretty
:> ridiculous, Huh?

: This is such a red herring already. Plus a totally incorrect analogy.
: As a teacher might say, "you're capable of better work than that!"  (I
: know you are, you post a lot of good thoughtful stuff here.)

Perhaps you wouldn't hear it over and over if you would address the point
substansively.

His point, the one I made earlier WRT a se'udah on Yom Kippur, is that there
are clearly things that lack a halachic way. Once we posit that, one has to
prove that agunos (or women's prayer groups, or whatever) is not in that
category. You're taking that as a given. Blu Greenberg's cliche certainly
does; the words taken literally deny the existance of the category altogether.
And the latter, that literal reading, is what I called Conservative.

Some people picked up on the idea that you were arguing against the possibility
that halachah requires the existance of something so oppressive. This is the
same system, though, that punishes mamzeirim for numerous generations -- also
because of another's act.

The point needs to be demonstrated, or at least argued clearly. Otherwise, I
think this crimson fish will rise again.

-mi (private email only)

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 15-Dec-99: Revi'i, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 84a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 8

Sorry, as you see by the signature, I did not intend that last email to be
public.

-mi

We're still dealing with this stuff? It isn't that Chassidus and Mussar deal 
with different things -- it isn't that Chassidus is devoted to the 
indefinite complexity of things versus Mitzvah observance -- in fact one of 
the trademark niggunim of the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the version of Tzomo 
L'Cho Nafshi based on the children's song "Johnny Johnny what are you doing 
in the market."  The difference is Chassidishe derechs aren't based on the 
dichotomy between Olom Habah and Olom Hazeh as much as attachment with HKBH 
-- the routes differ but that is the main point of difference.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:22:58 -0500
From: j e rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu>
Subject: men who don't like women

	Wonderful solution!  Addresses Dr. Press's concerns as well as RYGB's.

Gershon

From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject: Re: xmas & Jesus

On 15 Dec 99, at 12:25, gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:

<<Go to Washington Heights and shout out the name "Jesus" and a few
hundred hispanics will answer.>>

	Reminds me of the old joke asking why if "osoh haish"  (IMHO a better, 
and traditional,  way of referring to him) was Jewish,  why did he have a
Puerto Rican name?

Gershon

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:34:14 +0200 (IST)
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
Subject: Tur

<<In any case, I don't understand what is wrong with concentrating on the
Tur and Beis Yosef. It is said that Chazon Ish spend much of his youth
studying Tur and beis Yosef and others claimed that because of that
he would never amount to anything!>>

	Seems to me that except for the Chazon Ish being the godol that he was, 
the concern of the "others claimed"  (acherim omrim?) would have been
valid. 

Gershon

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:50:12 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Subject: Cell Phones (was Re: Avodah V4 #124: Kol Kevudah - a new twist)

<<The first two cellular phone companies here distributed signs to all 
the shuls asking people to shut off their cell phones for davening.>>

	Those signs ("you are interfering with my Communication") are becoming
widespread here as well.  The problem is that so few people have the
proper bein adam lamakom and bein adam lachaveiro to turn them off when
they should, so even the signs don't help much. 

Gershon

From: j e rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: women and funerals

<<some say that it is like tefillin in a cemetery --- to not make the
dead
feel bad about what they can no longer do.>>

	Tefilin or other mitzvos in a cemetery are not permitted because of
lo'eg lorosh.  This only applies to mitzvos, not to,  say,  being
pregnant which,  obviously,  dead people cannot do.  Logical extension of
this argument would mean you'd have to stop breathing upon entering a
cemetery.  OTOH how could you walk in....

	The reason I've heard,  for pregnant women,  is that it is a sakono to
the unborn child who is more vulnerable due to a higher state of kedusha.

Gershon

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]