Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 203

Tuesday, December 21 1999

• Re: Millenium
• [none]
• Sociology of To'eivah
• state's obligation to the poor
• Re: Avodah V4 #191
• RE: Not a proof---Why not? (V4#202)
• Re: state's obligation to the poor
• RE: Was re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim, Now R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan
• RE: state's obligation to the poor
• RE: state's obligation to the poor
• RE: Was re: Reb Shlomo Carlebach and Carlebach minyanim, Now R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan
• Re: websites
• RE: state's obligation to the poor
• reaction to averah
• RE: state's obligation to the poor
• BETH DIN
• economist's view of charedim

In a message dated 12/21/99 11:25:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
nwitty@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< It is hard to imagine a better response to the significance of the
 Millennium to Jews,
 than this piece from the December issue of Hadassah Magazine
 (http://www.hadassah.org/news/pubfrm2.htm).  Eleven people (ten of
 them Jews) were asked for their thoughts on the event that is now upon
 us.  This is what NY Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote:
 
 I must admit to a measure of bemused bewilderment at being asked to
 expound upon the "meaning of the new millennium  to the Jewish
 people." While I know the editors of "Hadassah Magazine plan ahead,  I
 was surprised to be asked to explore the import of the  Seventh
 Millennium, which Jewish friends inform me is still  240 years in the
 future. On reflection, I realize that a mere quarter of a millennium
 means a lot less to your readers than it does to most Americans. The
 cycle of your holidays and the rhythm of your rituals echo events that
 took place two or  three thousand years ago. Your very organization is
 named after a young Jewish woman who was taken to the court of a
 Persian king several centuries before the common era and whose heroism
 is still celebrated every year during the Purim holiday. Why then
 should the advent of a new millennium as reckoned on either the
 secular or sacred calendar have a particular import on a people
 blessed with timeless continuity and a  seamless communal memory? Why
 indeed?
 
 [Thanks to Rabbi Yitzchak Etshalom]
  >>

Knowing as I do his literary style, I would venture to guess that this reply 
was probably penned by David Luchins.

Jordan Hirsch 

<< From: DFinchPC@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Sociology of To'eivah
> 
> In a message dated 12/21/99 3:40:20 AM US Central Standard Time, 
> cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:
> 
> << Rabbi Norman Lamm did in the 70's after Bernard Bergman was 
>  sent to jail. If you've never read the case, it was the first case 
> cited  in my Criminal Law book. Unfortunately that book got left behind

>  when I made aliya, but it's a New York case.
>   >>
> 
> After Mr. Bergman was caught. 
> 
> David Finch>>

	Are you implying that Rabbi Lamm or any other community leader knew
about the practices and kept quiet because they were getting shochad in
the way of donations or for other reasons?  
	It is more reasonable,  not to mention halachically more appropriate, 
to assume that,  until it became public knowledge,  nobody not connected
with Bergman's operation knew what went on>

Gershon

Perhaps issues of Loshon-Horo/Motzi-Sheim-Ro prevented speakingout until the 
issue became public, or until it went beyond rumor into "fact".

Perhaps attacking "straw-men" would have been realitvely ineffective, and we 
needed a real-life situation to erupt in full bloom.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

> 
> << Rabbi Norman Lamm did in the 70's after Bernard Bergman was 
>  sent to jail. If you've never read the case, it was the first case 
> cited  in my Criminal Law book. Unfortunately that book got left behind

>  when I made aliya, but it's a New York case. 
>   >>
> 
> After Mr. Bergman was caught. 
> 
> David Finch>>

	Are you implying that Rabbi Lamm or any other community leader knew 
about the practices and kept quiet because they were getting shochad in 
the way of donations or for other reasons?  
	It is more reasonable,  not to mention halachically more appropriate, 
to assume that,  until it became public knowledge,  nobody not connected 
with Bergman's operation knew what went on>

Gershon

see headlines in the israeli papers in re poverty rates. see analysis in
Haaretz.  as the poorest cities [ in quantity ] are yerushalayim and bnei
brak,   the commentator referred to the fact that much of this poverty is a
chosen lifestyle.
question---- is there a societal obligation to support people who choose a
life style that discourages [forbids?]  work?
                 
                 is it reasonable to ask the 'welfare' client to get a job?
is the answer different in US   vs Israel?   
I'm not sure why a secular society has a chiyuv to the demands of a chareidi
community [ that is agav urcha only supporting that society by endorsing its
checks ]

seriously, is there a distinction between our individual chiyuv of tzedaka
and that of a secular state?

On Tue, Dec 21, 1999 at 08:49:25AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> Clarification:My explanation was about the strong antipathy of people towards 
> homosexuality as opposed to other things; e.g. geneivo.  Many people feel 
> threatened on a viscreal level by homcsexuality - even more so than say by 
> muggers.

the commonly accepted answer in academia (not my field, but i have a few
acquaintances in women's studies) is that men are aware of their thoughts and 
the way they look at women --- the "male gaze".  they realise to what extent 
they objectify women (especially in the secular world where it's not asked 
that they modify their thoughts), and are used to being the director of 
their gaze.  the idea of being the -object- of thoughts very much like
their own is frightening to them.  

if you look at the debate in the media on the question (as well as in
jokes on, e.g., male prison life), you can notice how prevalent this
theme is.  "he was looking at me!" was, in fact, the whole defense
in the trial on the murder of matthew shepard, (a gay man who was beaten 
to death in wyoming sometime this year.)  the defense argued that the 
defendant suffered temporary hysteria induced by the idea that the 
victim had been looking at him that evening.  

janet

Russell Hendel asks "why the attached is not a proof" 
While I concur with Carl Sherer's and Rich Wolpoe's answers to 
Russell's question, I do have one more point to add. I heard from my 
Rosh Yeshiva, R' Weinberg z'tl, that when a tzaddik davens for 
something out of the ordinary on behalf of a yachid that it's not so 
pashut that it does not effect the yachid in other ways (negatively)...
Let's leave those decisions up to those who are "roi" to make them.

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

On 21 Dec 99, at 9:24, Newman,Saul Z wrote:

> see headlines in the israeli papers in re poverty rates. see analysis in
> Haaretz.  as the poorest cities [ in quantity ] are yerushalayim and bnei
> brak,   the commentator referred to the fact that much of this poverty is a
> chosen lifestyle.
> question---- is there a societal obligation to support people who choose a
> life style that discourages [forbids?]  work?

No, but there is a societal obligation to support people who study 
Torah and Torah institutions. While IMHO that does not require us 
to support every person who wants to study Torah, I also do not 
think I am qualified to determine who is worthy of societal support 
for his Torah study and who is not worthy.
            
>                  is it reasonable to ask the 'welfare' client to get a job?

Yes, but learning Torah full time is a job. And the people who do 
learn Torah full time, and who are serious about it, put in more 
hours at it than most other jobs. Of course, that doesn't have to 
mean that one's ability to hold a job learning Torah cannot be 
judged on merit. The Leviyim in the Beis HaMikdash were also 
subject to being kicked out of the Meshoririm after five years if they 
were not talented enough.

> is the answer different in US   vs Israel?   

The problem with Israel (and I'm not sure if you're in Israel or in the 
US, but I think you're in Israel) is the army and the difficulties it 
places on a fruhm lifestyle. IMHO the "charedi nachal" may make 
much of this conversation moot in a few years' time. But until one 
finishes the army, it is almost impossible to work (legally) before 
the age of 35. So with all the hand wringing about the poverty level 
here, b'gadol, the secular society that shries about it also has a 
hand in bringing it about.

> I'm not sure why a secular society has a chiyuv to the demands of a chareidi
> community [ that is agav urcha only supporting that society by endorsing its
> checks ]

I'm not sure why the Charedi society has a chiyuv to support the 
demands of a secular society that adopts the worst of western 
hedonistic lifestyles. The amount of money being thrown at the 
Charedi Yeshivos (even if one assumes that Shas will get NIS 
275MM for their educational system as it was reported that they 
were demanding in today's papers) pales in comparison to the 
amount of money and resources thrown at bailing out the 
Kibbutzim (more than NIS 8 BILLION between 1992 and 1996). 

> seriously, is there a distinction between our individual chiyuv of tzedaka
> and that of a secular state?

Maybe. Although I'm not sure distributions of tax money are 
classified as tzedaka. But even if you do work, the tax rates are so 
high here that most people cannot afford a whole lot of tzedaka 
unless they are making pretty solid incomes.

JMHO. Better get out the asbestos suit :-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

> That's about seven blatt a day with Rif and Rosh plus all of
> Shulchan Aruch etc. Doesn't sound like a lot of time for depth.
>

Keep in mind these things were *not* taught for the average bal-ha-bayis.
The chassidim of that time were talmidei chachamim of a *high* degree.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

A few comments:

"much of this poverty is a chosen lifestyle." -- true. How do you define
"poverty". For these surveys, the "poverty level" is based on things like
vacations abroad, cars, and other "trappings" of a two working parent two
child lifestyle.

"[ that is agav urcha only supporting that society by endorsing its
checks ]" is a leftist stereotype of charedim.

1) There are no checks (nor direct deposit] unless you mean Bituach L'eumi
payments for children -- which *everyone* gets no matter their income.

2) a large minority (and possible a small majority) of charedim work and pay
taxes.

3) there are other minorities also below the p[overty level (the arab
population) who receive the same or more benefits without any complaints
from the left.


Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-avodah@aishdas.org [mailto:owner-avodah@aishdas.org]On
> Behalf Of Newman,Saul Z
> Sent: 21 December 1999 19:24
> To: 'avodah@aishdas.org'
> Subject: state's obligation to the poor
>
>
>
> see headlines in the israeli papers in re poverty rates. see
> analysis in
> Haaretz.  as the poorest cities [ in quantity ] are
> yerushalayim and bnei
> brak,   the commentator referred to the fact that much of
> this poverty is a
> chosen lifestyle.
> question---- is there a societal obligation to support people
> who choose a
> life style that discourages [forbids?]  work?
>
>                  is it reasonable to ask the 'welfare' client
> to get a job?
> is the answer different in US   vs Israel?
> I'm not sure why a secular society has a chiyuv to the
> demands of a chareidi
> community [ that is agav urcha only supporting that society
> by endorsing its
> checks ]
>
> seriously, is there a distinction between our individual
> chiyuv of tzedaka
> and that of a secular state?
>
>
>

On 21 Dec 99, at 20:40, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> A few comments:
> 
> "much of this poverty is a chosen lifestyle." -- true. How do you define
> "poverty". For these surveys, the "poverty level" is based on things like
> vacations abroad, cars, and other "trappings" of a two working parent two
> child lifestyle.

Actually, I think poverty in this case was defined as a certain 
monthly income. It's also nowhere near what one needs to live 
on.... It is true that much of the Charedi community here lives in 
poverty. And that poverty is well beyond what most Jews in the 
States would envision. I could tell you lots of stories of kids 
sleeping on the floors and in empty bathtubs. Of people with no 
clothes other than what is on their backs. Of people who can't 
afford a chicken for Shabbos.... I'm not sure how constructive it is 
to try to deny it.

> "[ that is agav urcha only supporting that society by endorsing its
> checks ]" is a leftist stereotype of charedim.
> 
> 1) There are no checks (nor direct deposit] unless you mean Bituach L'eumi
> payments for children -- which *everyone* gets no matter their income.

Actually, IMHO that's one of the problems - that the Kizvat Yeladim 
(NII) deposits to which Akiva refers are not at all means tested. The 
"yeled vakelev" crowd in Ramat Aviv Gimmel with NIS 40K a month 
in income gets the same subsidy for their child as the Kollel couple 
living on a wife's part time work and as the Ethiopian immigrant 
living in a tin shack in Givat HaMatos. (We have a friend who went 
there to pay a shiva call recently and it's embarassing to the State 
of Israel in 1999 that Jews actually live that way, but they do).

One of the first things the Likud did in 1996 was to abolish the 
subsidy for the first two children for people with incomes over a 
certain level. One of the first thing this government did was to 
reinstate it. The money to pay those subsidies comes from our 
taxes.... And the amount per child doesn't change significantly until 
you have six of them.

> 2) a large minority (and possible a small majority) of charedim work and pay
> taxes.

I don't think anyone has done a survey. I would concede that it's a 
sizeable minority. More in the Chasidish (especially Lubavitch and 
Ger) and Sephardi communities than in the Litvish community. But 
the image is clearly that we are a bunch of leeches who don't work. 
Just ask the Minister of Finance.

> 3) there are other minorities also below the p[overty level (the arab
> population) who receive the same or more benefits without any complaints
> from the left.

That's true. And one of the reason the poverty statistics were so 
much higher this year is that they counted the Arabs for the first 
time.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 21 Dec 99, at 20:39, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > That's about seven blatt a day with Rif and Rosh plus all of
> > Shulchan Aruch etc. Doesn't sound like a lot of time for depth.
> >
> 
> Keep in mind these things were *not* taught for the average bal-ha-bayis.

Ah. I thought this was a general instruction for all of the Chasidim.

> The chassidim of that time were talmidei chachamim of a *high* degree.

All well and good. But in order to reach the point where covering 
that much ground in a year does not take all of your time, you have 
to develop a tremendous bekiyus over the course of many years. If 
I recall correctly, R. Moshe zt"l was reputed to go through Shas 
and Shulchan Aruch every year. Most of us are not on that level.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

For info on Jewish journals/magazines try: www.publist.com  (under social
science/religion/jewish). For getting the index or table of contents of
thousands of Jewish oriented journals (including journals like TECHUMIN, etc.)
try RAMBI at Hebrew University  telnet aleph.huji.ac.il  login as aleph
then access RAMBI.

PUBLIST will list the website of the journal if the publisher has provided
the needed information. If not, and you know the name of the journal, try:
//alltheweb.com

Josh

> Actually, I think poverty in this case was defined as a certain
> monthly income. It's also nowhere near what one needs to live
> .... I'm not sure how constructive it is
> to try to deny it.

All true -- and I'm not denying it. It's just the assumption that being
below the "poverty limit" means all of the terrible cases you mentioned
above.

I know a lot of people with incomes at or below the "poverty level" -- but
they manage to pay mortgages/rent, feed and cloth their children, and pay
tuitions. They just do without new clothes twice a year (the assumption in
setting the level, I believe), frequent the clothing gemachs for clothing
(usually new or almost new), don't have cars , don't eat meat/chicken except
on shabbos, etc.

> That's true. And one of the reason the poverty statistics were so
> much higher this year is that they counted the Arabs for the first
> time.

a point which *wasn't* emphasised in the press reports I saw.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

David Finch writes
> 
> But we aren't. Known tax cheats, cruel exploiters of cheap immigrant labor, 
> wife-beaters, philanders, etc. are occasionally treated as great personages 
> in various sectors of the Jewish community, so long as their personal 
> idiosycrasies are kept under the table, they give lots of money to the right 
> Jewish charities, and they don't get caught. When is the last time a rabbi 
> railed at the pulpit about the labor practices common, if certainly 
> (hopefully) not prevalent, in many nursing homes owned by observant Jews? Or 
> about some of the curious cash transactions we hear about? Can't we at least 
> admit that we are more frightened, personally and as a group, by the idea 
> that our neighbor is a homosexual than we are by the idea that he doesn't pay 
> his taxes?
> 
There was a guest tonight on one of Israel's talk programs of a haredi
who recently wrote a book about his father the homosexual. He was
taunted in school about his father by "friends" but discovered the
truth when he walked into the ezrat nashim of a shul one day (when he
was 17) and found his father in the middle.

He claims that if his father would have been threaatened by expulsion
from the haredi society that his father would have stopped since it
was very important to his father to be haredi and the father was
machmir in many things. The man further claims that when he married
a sefardi woman it was more disturbing to the family that the father's
homosexual activities. In any case the family is extremely upset at
him for writing the book and so making the affair public.

In terms of nursing homes I still remember a story from my teenage
years (eons ago). There was a person in the shtiebel I davened that
was put in jail because of a nursing home scandal. He was released
from jail a few days before rosh hashana and he blew shofar in
that shtiebel (he was one of the richest people in the shul).
I was deeply disturbed then and still am that someone is called to
blow shofar right after such a scandal.

Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel

On 21 Dec 99, at 21:59, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > Actually, I think poverty in this case was defined as a certain
> > monthly income. It's also nowhere near what one needs to live
> > .... I'm not sure how constructive it is
> > to try to deny it.
> 
> All true -- and I'm not denying it. It's just the assumption that being
> below the "poverty limit" means all of the terrible cases you mentioned
> above.

You're right. Not everyone who is below the poverty level is in one 
of the terrible positions I mentioned. But many are. I have an idea 
of how many families are being supported by the Gabbai tzedaka 
to whom I give the most money, and I know how desparate at least 
some of them are. I know of many people in my own neighborhood 
who qualified to buy their apartments because their living quarters 
were considered overcrowded by the government (less than ten 
square meters per person) and then sold the right to buy that 
apartment to pay off their debts. I know just how common it is not 
to have a safety net, and to be totally wiped out by having to marry 
off a child or R"L when someone in the family is sick.

> I know a lot of people with incomes at or below the "poverty level" -- but
> they manage to pay mortgages/rent, feed and cloth their children, and pay
> tuitions. 

Tuitions in most Charedi schools are negligible - you and I both 
know that. How many people do we know that are raising or at one 
time raised 10 or 11 children bli ayin hara in a two or three room 
apartment? How many people can barely feed their children? How 
many people do we know who have debts at the makolet (which is 
where most people who don't have cars buy most or all of their 
food) in the thousands of shekels? I personally know of cases 
where a gmach has gone in and paid off someone's debt to the 
makolet.

They just do without new clothes twice a year (the assumption in
> setting the level, I believe), 

If it was buying new clothes once a year instead of twice a year, it 
wouldn't bother me. But when I hear stories like the one that I think 
I repeated on this list a while back (about the young almana R"L 
who was debating with her friends whether to wear her robe or her 
one and only dress to her husband's levaya to tear kria) my heart 
breaks. How much better off would we be if the people who are only 
in Kollel because of social pressure were able to go to work without 
feeling ostracized? How much more support would we be able to 
give the yungerleit and families who are really dedicated to learning 
and who really have the potential to be gdolim baTorah? Why not 
send the shababnikim (the yeshiva dropouts who hang out in the 
street) to the army in Charedi units before they become bums, and 
let them get jobs, and then encourage them to support Torah 
institutions with their ma'aser money instead of making them feel 
like outcasts for working by not letting their kids into school?

frequent the clothing gemachs for clothing
> (usually new or almost new), don't have cars , don't eat meat/chicken except
> on shabbos, etc.

In my neighborhood (~2000 families) there is someone who 
collects money to give out chickens to families who can't afford a 
chicken for Shabbos. I don't know how many people are on her list, 
but it's definitely over 100, and it may well be over 200. It's NIS 25 
(less than $6) per chicken - not exactly big money. But obviously 
there are a lot of people who can't afford that.

> > That's true. And one of the reason the poverty statistics were so
> > much higher this year is that they counted the Arabs for the first
> > time.
> 
> a point which *wasn't* emphasised in the press reports I saw.

Forget the press Akiva. We all know they hate us anyway, and we 
all know they don't share our value system. But how can a 
yungerman concentrate on becoming a talmid chacham if he 
spends his time in constant worry about where he will live, what his 
wife and children will eat, and how he will be able to marry off his 
children? The distraction alone has to weigh on you and interfere 
with your learning eventually.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I recently undertook the representation of a man in a divorce case.  My role
is a rather limited one.  Five years after he signed a separation agreement,
he commenced a divorce action.  His estranged wife, who is now halachicly
married to the man with whom she carried on an adulterous affair during the
marriage claimed that she was under duress when she signed the separation
agreement (i.e. that my client was threatening to withold the Get), and was
mazmin him to Beth Din.  My client appeared before the Beth Din only to
discuss the issue of "Ein Nizkakin", that Beth Din does not have the
authority to judge in this case.  Shtarei Birurin, arbitration contracts
were presented to my client in that context and were executed.  The wife
then moved to enforce those contracts, dismiss the action for divorce and
compel arbitration.  The Beth Din, it seems, doctored the contracts to
confer it with authority to arbitrate visitation (my client has custody of
the parties son), child support, and all issues in the separarion agreement.
In short, the Beth Din falsified documents, and there is eyeswitness
testimony that the documents produced in court are not those signed by my
client.

This case has forced me to rethinnk my feelings about Beth Din.  I used to
think that Batei Din had become tools for abusive husbands to further harm
their wives.  I now realize that Batei Din really don't care about people at
all; they are only interested in perpetuating their self declared hegemony.
That pole-star gola creates the following permutations:
    1.    All parties agree to be before the Beth Din, the Beth Din will
then issue an honest ruling
    2.    The party which has truly been wronged wants to be before Beth din
and the offending party refuses the din Torah.  Beth Din will lie cheat
steal and do whatever it can to help the aggrieved party stnading before it
and protect it's hegemony; raising the question of ends justifying the means
    3.    The offending party wants to before Beth Din, and the party truly
wronged does not.  Beth Din will lie cheat steal and do whatever it takes to
protext it's hegemony.

This is why Beth Din is Morally suspect.

I just ran across a pre-publication version of an economic analysis of 
full-time learning in Israel which will be published in the Quarterly
Journal of Economics (one of the major journals):
http://econ.bu.edu/eli/papers/snsa2.pdf

I don't know anything about the author and actually only read the first
several pages, so all I can do is pass along the paper without comment.  

Janet

*********************


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