Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 208

Thursday, December 23 1999

• Orthodox publications
• Re: your mail
• RCA pre-nup
• harvard law school on halacha
• Re: RCA pre-nup
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Avodah V4 #207
• Re: Avodah V4 #207
• Re: Kollel and sustenance
• R. Nachman's regimen
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Wedding customs
• visitation right (wing)
• Net Access
• sorry
• re: Beth Din
• re: Kippot in the US Army
• re: Kippot in the US Army
• Re: visitation right (wing)
• RE: Net Access
• Re: Net Access
• Controlling the Net and Charedi Aliya (was Re: Is Kollel for the Elite)

I saw the posting about URLs directing readers to websites of Orthodox
publications. I am responding as the newly appointed editor of 'Le'ela: A
Journal of Judaism Today', published in London by the London School of
Jewish Studies (formerly Jews' College). While our website is only
undergoing construction now, and full articles will probably not be
available in the first instance, our December issue has just come out (it is
a bi-annual publication) and we are eager to boost circulation both in the
States and in Israel.

Contents of the current issue include a transcript of a hesped for Rav
Jakobovits by one of his sons-in-law, an article about the compatibility of
Torah learning and secular study in the works of the Maharal, Fred Rosner on
cosmetic and plastic surgery, just to list a few things. For fuller
information on current contents or to arrange an annual subscription, please
feel free to contact me off list.

Rachel Schenker

: On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:25:16 -0600 owner-avodah@aishdas.org (Avodah)
: writes:

: > Avodah          Wednesday, December 22 1999          Volume 04 : 
: > Number 205

Butterfingers!

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Dec-99: Shelishi, Vayechi
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 87a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

>>It is very easy to cure the problem. But the RCA hasn't.  Rabbi's are not
>>  lawyers and are not aware of the problem when they use the agreement.  
They
>>  are thereofre unwawre that they need to add that page not supplied by the
>>  RCA   <<

That's why I suggested that your suggestion be forwarded to the RCA
Any RCA members out there that can help??
David I. Cohen
  

Harvard Law School's Berkman Center for the Internet and Society has a
project for open halacha in which users of a website can contribute
relevant material.  Their trial run is on the issue of halachic views of
homosexuality.  I haven't looked through the entire site, but some of 
the material up so far is apparently new.

www.aldgate.freeserve.co.uk/halacha/openlaw1.htm

Please pass this URL to any who might be interested.

--
Janet Rosenbaum
jerosenb@fas.harvard.edu

I did that a few times and got no response


----- Original Message -----
From: <BDCOHEN613@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 6:51 PM
Subject: RCA pre-nup


> >>It is very easy to cure the problem. But the RCA hasn't.  Rabbi's are
not
> >>  lawyers and are not aware of the problem when they use the agreement.
> They
> >>  are thereofre unwawre that they need to add that page not supplied by
the
> >>  RCA   <<
>
> That's why I suggested that your suggestion be forwarded to the RCA
> Any RCA members out there that can help??
> David I. Cohen
>
>

On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 07:53:27PM -0500, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> This sounds pretty suspicious to me. I'm not aware of any X-tian 
> denominations in which the use of alcohol is a "big no-no." 

This seems like a opportune time to share this piece by David Berger
which I clipped some time ago from the H-JUDAIC discussion list.

KT,
Shlomo Godick

From: david berger <DVBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: christian seders

      I cannot supply any literature in response to Steve Siporin's query
about Christian seders, but I can relate a story.  About three years ago,
I gave a lecture at Boston College in connection with their establishment
of a position in Jewish-Christian relations.  After my talk, a professor
of theology there who is a member of a Catholic religious order and active
in ecumenical affairs briefly related some vignettes from her experience
in this field.  Among them was the following:
      At an ecumenical seder, several Catholic participants asked her what
can best be characterized as a shayle.  They had formally resolved not to
drink alcoholic beverages during Lent and wanted to know whether the
requirement of drinking four cups of wine at the seder overrode this
prohibition.  (Imagine this question in any previous generation!) After
some thought, she asked them whether they intended this prohibition to
apply on St. Patrick's Day.  When they responded that on St. Patrick's Day
they drink, she ruled (paskened?) that the seder has the same standing as
St. Patrick's Day, and they proceeded to drink.
      I told her that it was worth coming to Boston just to hear this
story, but had I been at the seder I would have ruined things by
suggesting that they drink grape juice.
      When I recounted this response to a friend, I was told a story which
can serve as a fitting sequel.  The well known hasidic psychiatrist
Avraham Twersky, who specializes inter alia in substance abuse, had a
patient who was a Catholic priest suffering from alcoholism.  At the end
of a successful course of treatment, the priest asked how he should handle
the problem of drinking wine at the mass, and the doctor suggested grape
juice.  Shortly thereafter, he received a call from the priest's superior
asking for the basis for this suggestion, and he replied with a reference
to the responsa of R. Moshe Feinstein.  Considerably later, he received
another call informing him that the question had been referred all the way
to the Vatican, and a ruling was issued confirming R. Moshe's psak.
Finally, when I told this story to a Catholic priest, he responded, "So
that's where that memo came from!"
      Only in America.
              David Berger
              Brooklyn College and the Graduate School, CUNY

Although doing so would not be a difficult task, this is a topic which
usually raises emotions beyond reason. I have seen normally level headed
intelligent people metamorphous into superstitious, pagan-like peasants when
discussing early chasidus. Perhaps only a discussion of the religious
significance of Midinat Yisroel could be more effective at quickly erasing
any semblance ahavas yisroel and achdus between shomrei torah u'mitzvos.

Simcha Klagsbrun

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:56:11 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: RE: Avodah V4 #203

> Most early chasidim were talmidai chachomim??!! You seem to
> be confused
> between early chasidim and chasidim harishonim.

I don't think so.

Name one of the Talmidei Bal Shem Tov who *wasn't* a Godol B'Torah.

Although doing so would not be a difficult task, this is a topic which
usually raises emotions beyond reason. I have seen normally level headed
intelligent people metamorphous into superstitious, pagan-like peasants when
discussing early chasidus. Perhaps only a discussion of the religious
significance of Midinat Yisroel could be more effective at quickly erasing
any semblance ahavas yisroel and achdus between shomrei torah u'mitzvos.

Simcha Klagsbrun

Most of the discussion between Carl Sherer and Shlomo Godick reflects a 
profound dissagreement over the nature of Kollel study. Rav Yitzchak 
Breitowitz has pointed out elsewhere in a shiur on the Darchei Noam website 
that in Europe Kollel was for the elite. The arghuments for Kollel today are 
that we are subject to far stronger secular influences today and that we must 
compensate for the losses susutained by the Torah communities during the 
Holocaust. Assuming that these arguments are valid, a ben Torah has to ask 
himself whether he fits shevet Levi or will be a washout. RIETS has written 
bchinos for its Kolleleit. This is the best method of accountability for 
people who are somech al shulchan aviv. Do other yeshivos have this and if 
not why not? 
                                                             Zeliglaw@aol.com
                                                              Steven Brizel

I believe R. Nachman prescribed annual review not only of Shulhan
Aruch and Bavli, but also of Tanach, Mishna, Tosefta, Yerushalmi,
Midreshei Halacha, several Midreshei Agadda, Zohar, and Kithvei HaAri.

***** digression *****

  He also proscribed study of the Moreh Nevuchim.  This reminds me of
something I heard in the name of Rabbi Lichtenstein - that if the Moreh
Nevuchim were suddenly to disappear almost no one would notice, but if
the Ramban on Humash were to disappear the world would feel desolate.  I
use that as my standard to measure how shocking a remark by a prominent
rav is (you can tell how shocked I still am - my grammar falls to pieces
at the mere memory).

***** end of digression *****

Does anyone follow this opinion?
  Some time ago I asked whether anyone knew of someone who follows the
opinion of the Baal HaTanya with respect to review (he requires that it
be monthly rather than yearly).  I got no responses, and I took that to
mean that no one knew of such a person.
  Now my question is this: were these meant to be unattainable goals?
I'm sure both peope followed their own opinions, and I have heard of
other rabbanim of the 56th century who reviewed Shas monthly.  So that
they're not unattainable.  To what extent is a chassid free to ignore
his rebbe's advice (especially since the Baal HaTanya thought he was
describing a halachic obligation, not advice)?

David Riceman

On Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 03:15:27PM -0500, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> You're right, up to a point. 
> There are old-time WASPs left in Chicago, maybe six of them. Thus in Chicago 
> booze has never been known as a sinful thing.

I have no idea about Chicago, except that most of the WASPs moved to the 
suburbs.  In Evanston well into the 1980's, it was illegal to sell or 
serve alcohol.  Finally, the city broke down and decided they were losing 
too many sales to the border towns (Chicago and Skokie) and established 
one overpriced liquor store and allowed two restaurants to serve alcohol.  
After a year or two, they realized that people were still going to Chicago 
and Skokie, and they eased up further.  

Still, even now, fifteen years after all these changes, it's required
that stores have separate entrances for their alcohol section, which had
to close at 10pm.  (Even in Massachusetts, it's allowed to sell alcohol
until midnight.)

> I forgot about the old New England Presbyterian 
> attitude toward liquor. 

ym Puritain.  Presbyterians are the descendants of the Church of Scotland 
(very Establishment, High Church, i.e., the type of churches Puritains
burned down) and didn't have a presence in New England in the early 
17th century when all these laws were made.

> As for Minnesota, I've played hockey up there. They don't allow beer on the 
> rink. The stands, dressing rooms, corridors, concession stands, parking lots 
> -- that's another matter. You really wouldn't want to pass up a chance to 
> make a decent offer for the Budweiser franchise up there.

I didn't mean there were legal barriers, just that most long-time Minnesotans
don't have alcohol in their homes.  Probably moreso for the older generation.

The most liberal attitude towards alcohol I've ever seen was at Swarthmore, 
a small Quaker college, where the administration buys beer for 
school-sponsored parties which is then served to anyone who wants it.
When I was visiting, I asked about this, and students told me that people
rarely get drunk:  they just have a beer or two and enjoy the party.

Janet

I came across the following from the web:

WEDDING DRESS COLOUR
Most brides today marry in white which symbolises maidenhood. This tradition 
started by the rich in sixteenth century. The tradition was given a boost by 
Queen Victoria who chose to marry in white instead of silver which was the 
traditional colour of Royal brides. Before the white dress brides wore their 
best dress.

Does anyone know of an earlier Jewish tradition?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

PS I believe there was previous discussion on the source of the term "vort" 
for an engagement gathering - could some kind soul remind me - was there 
anything besides giving a dvar tora and/or exchanging family commitments?

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:24:13 -0500
From: gil.student@citicorp.com
Subject: Re: problem kids

<<I will be visited this week or next by an interviewer in my home who
will 
"check out" my family and home (and presumably my car in the driveway)
and require me to sign an agreement that I do not and will never own a
TV.  I don't know how much crazier this can get.>>

	Cool. I have had seven children in,  I think,  eight yeshivas, 
including girls's schools,  and never been visited nor asked to sign such
agreement.

Gershon

	It has been relatively easy for the last few years to keep the kids off
the net unless you let them on, by simply keeping the password to
yourself and logging them on when and as you see fit.

	There are now, to my knowledge, at least three free web access
providers.  Does anyone have any suggestion,  short of unplugging the
computer or at least the modem, for preventing unsupervised access to the
net for younger children.

	I am not looking for Koshernet style programs;  even if every site they
go to is glatt kosher,  I'd rather they not be on when I am not aware of
it.  This is both because of the fallibility of filters and pure time
wasting.

	Suggestions?

Gershon
PS....Now, where is that asbestos suit?

Was I the one who forwarded the whole digest?  I can't figure out if I
did or if so how;  my apologies.

Gershon

.



Shoshana L. Boublil writes <<< if you have proof, you can present it at a
reliable Beith Din -- and there are many such out there, and make the
issue public. >>> I adress the following not specifically to her, but to
the many people who have written that we should be careful to find an
honest rabbi and beis din, and that we should avoid the unscrupulous
ones.


I UNDERSTAND THAT FOR VARIOUS REASONS, THOSE WHO ARE "IN THE KNOW" ARE
UNABLE TO TELL US WHAT THEY KNOW. BUT PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE RESULT
OF THIS IS THAT THE REST OF US ARE WANDERING IN THE DARK, AND WE HAVE NO
CHOICE BUT TO FOLLOW FAMOUS RABBIS WHOSE PUBLIC REPUTATIONS ARE STILL
GOOD.

THAT INCLUDES EVERYONE EXCEPT RABBIS RACKMAN AND MORGENSTERN. NO ONE ELSE
HAS GOTTEN THE BAD PRESS THAT THEY HAVE GOTTEN. IF A PERSON GOES TO A
BEIS DIN WHICH INCLUDES NEITHER OF THOSE TWO PEOPLE, ON WHAT BASIS WOULD
HE SUSPECT THEM OF BEING UNRELIABLE?

PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON BUT DO NOT SHARE THAT INFORMATION,
THEREBY GIVE UP THE RIGHT TO BE SURPRISED WHEN ANOTHER INNOCENT GETS RUN
DOWN BY THE UNSCRUPULOUS.

Akiva Miller




.

___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

<<< the officer was ordered to discontinue wearing a kippah while on duty
indoors, and was warned that failure to obey the regulation could subject
him to a court-martial. >>>

My understanding is that covering one's head indoors is generally (ie,
while not saying brachos) a mere minhag, not a halacha. A very old and
strong minhag indeed, but it still falls short of being a din.

And even if it *were* a real din, is it so vital that one must be willing
to be courtmartialed rather than violate it? I have seen many d'rabanans
waived for things much lesser than jail time. (Examples: medicine on
Shabbos for minor illnesses, various melachos for surprise guests,
kashrus details for poor people, etc.) The Army's regulation in this case
is intended to foster a certain uniformity (no pun intended) among the
troops, and is not intended in any way to be an anti-Semitic gesture (in
which case we *would* have to risk court-martial rather than violate even
a minor minhag).

Many people have risked much in order to defend their ability to keep
their head covered. I'm not saying they are wrong for doing so, but I
wonder if some of them are misinformed as to the true importance of this
practice. Or maybe *I* am the misinformed one. Any comments?

Akiva Miller

___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

On 22 Dec 99, at 23:55, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> My understanding is that covering one's head indoors is generally (ie,
> while not saying brachos) a mere minhag, not a halacha. A very old and
> strong minhag indeed, but it still falls short of being a din.
> 
> And even if it *were* a real din, is it so vital that one must be willing
> to be courtmartialed rather than violate it? I have seen many d'rabanans
> waived for things much lesser than jail time. (Examples: medicine on
> Shabbos for minor illnesses, various melachos for surprise guests,
> kashrus details for poor people, etc.) The Army's regulation in this case
> is intended to foster a certain uniformity (no pun intended) among the
> troops, and is not intended in any way to be an anti-Semitic gesture (in
> which case we *would* have to risk court-martial rather than violate even
> a minor minhag).
> 
> Many people have risked much in order to defend their ability to keep
> their head covered. I'm not saying they are wrong for doing so, but I
> wonder if some of them are misinformed as to the true importance of this
> practice. Or maybe *I* am the misinformed one. Any comments?

See Igros Moshe OH 4:2. 

In that tshuva, R. Moshe was asked about someone wearing a 
yarmulke to a job interview in Denver and paskened that the man 
did not have to.

But R. Moshe went a lot further than he had to in order to justify 
not wearing a yarmulke. There is language in the tshuva that 
permits saying a bracha without a yarmulke during the course of 
one's work (although R. Moshe did say that once you GET the job 
you should try to wear your yarmulke).

When I worked in New York (1984-91) this tshuva was pointed at 
by many as justification for not wearing a yarmulke in the office, 
although the standard practice was to try to close the door to your 
office and put one on before making a bracha on food, and to put 
your sleeve on the top of your head before making other brachos 
(i.e. asher yotzar). 

Another good reason to come on aliya....

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 22 Dec 99, at 23:25, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> <<I will be visited this week or next by an interviewer in my home who
> will 
> "check out" my family and home (and presumably my car in the driveway)
> and require me to sign an agreement that I do not and will never own a
> TV.  I don't know how much crazier this can get.>>
> 
> 	Cool. I have had seven children in,  I think,  eight yeshivas, 
> including girls's schools,  and never been visited nor asked to sign such
> agreement.

In most chadarim and Beis Yaakov's in Yerushalayim, it is 
standard practice to make you sign a form that says that you do 
not and will not have a TV set in your house, that you do not and 
will not send your kids to youth groups, and a few other goodies. 
Of course you could never have kids in so many different Yeshivas 
here either, as you may recall from a post I did a couple months 
ago.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

The simple answer: you need a firewall. Norton sells one as part of their
internet utility package.

You culd also check out www.winfiles.com/apps or www.tucows.com -- they have
a large collection of utilities there. I remember seeing a few that claimed
to restrict web access.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

On 22 Dec 99, at 23:36, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> 	There are now, to my knowledge, at least three free web access
> providers.  Does anyone have any suggestion,  short of unplugging the
> computer or at least the modem, for preventing unsupervised access to the
> net for younger children.

There are "net minder" programs that will at least keep them out of 
pornographic sites. Netscape has one - I think it's called "Net 
Nanny." If you do their Smart Update and go through all of the 
choices, I think it is one of the choices you will be offered. Not 
foolproof, I am sure but better than nothing.

Don't you need an ISP in the US? How do you dial in if you do not 
have an account? If you need an account, wouldn't you also need a 
password (that you can keep from your kids)? 

Our kids have no idea how to log into the net. The oldest (16-year 
old girl) has email through hotmail, but we do not allow her on it 
unless we are home. 

Hope this is helpful.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 23 Dec 99, at 0:02, Shlomo Godick wrote:

> Still I would argue that we have to recognize the potentially deleterious
> effects of the net in the hands of someone lacking personal 
> discipline and impulse control.   I'm not sure what the answer is
> (because a sweeping issur would obviously have very negative 
> consequences), but it is an issue that has to be dealt with.  Do we
> simply treat it like alcohol and leave it up to the individual to regulate
> his behavior?  I don't know if the cases are comparable.

I think it's like any other thing that can have potentially delterious 
effects. Kadesh atzmecha bamutar lecha. Don't eat like a pig, don't 
drink like a lush, don't have relations in a prohibited way and don't 
surf to web sites that you know aren't appropriate. Someone who 
wants to find a way to abuse all of the things I mentioned above 
can find them. That doesn't mean we asser them. 

I think it IS fair to tell people that there are a lot of things on the net 
that are not appropriate for a fruhmmer yid, but then there are also 
a lot of things that aren't appropriate when I walk out my front door 
(or in my case when I drive out of my neighborhood - most of my 
neighborhood is B"H appropriate).

> > << for those who are wondering what I am talking about :-). If they come
> > out of the army and become Charedi baalebatim who support  the Yeshivos
> > but are seen by the chilonim as contributing to  society, I think it will
> > take a lot of pressure off the rest of 
> > > Charedi  society - both financially (in the long run) and in terms of
> > the army (almost immediately).>>
> > 
> > It might also encourage some chutznikim who would like to make aliya but
> > don't see their way in current Israeli Chareidi society,  nor outside of
> > it.
> 
> What would encourage the chutznikim?  The opening up of the 
> possibility for a chareidi to enter the mainstream of Israeli
> society (army service, parnassa) and be accepted by chiloni
> society?  From my own personal experience I have found that that is
> already possible today (and the possibilities for kiddush hashem
> or, r"l, chilul hashem, are great).  You shouldn't think that
> chareidi society is so monolithic.  And what of the chareidim that
> don't serve in the army but do serve in various volunteer organi-
> zations that benefit all sectors of society (Yad Sarah, Ezer miTzion,
> Hatzolah, zihui chalalim after terrorist attacks, etc.) and leave a 
> tremendously positive impression on chilonim?    If that is a 
> person's excuse for not making aliya, he had better find another
> one :-) . 

Shlomo, you and I are both here and we both see that. But people 
who are not here and who are what I like to refer to as "American 
Charedim" feel that they won't fit in here socially - whether because 
of their secular education levels or their jobs or their incomes or 
what things they are willing to discuss with their kids or many, 
many other ways in which Israeli Charedi society is very different 
from American Charedi society. 

I think I have made clear on this list in the past (and I have certainly 
made it clear on other lists for those who know me from other lists) 
that Adina and I do not fit neatly into one of the "categories" that 
Israelis like to assign to people. And while we are willing to live with 
that because we think that living here is a big enough mitzva to 
merit it, and because we think our kids will be better off in many 
ways for growing up here, many if not most of the people on this 
list (and most of this list is in chu"l), and most of my friends in 
chu"l, whether they admit it or not, will not seriously consider aliya 
because they fear that they will not fit in here socially. 

Every aliya statistic ever published bears that out. People who 
leave here don't leave here because of parnassa and they don't 
leave because their kids can't cope with school (although that is 
more likely as the kids get older) and they don't leave because 
they can't find a big enough house or apartment. They leave 
because they feel isolated because they do not fit in socially. And 
that's exactly why many of the people on this list aren't coming - 
EVEN IF THEY TELL YOU that it's because of jobs or the army or 
the chinuch (and the chinuch is admittedly a symptom of the social 
problems because schools like Maarava can't take anywhere near 
the number of boys whose oleh parents want to send them there 
and there is nothing comparable for girls on a similar intellectual 
level).

Off my pedestal for now.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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