Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 217

Monday, December 27 1999

• Re: Kollel support (was problem kids)
• Re: May-ain Sheva (MB index)
• Batei Din
• Re: Slap in the Face
• Re: Avodah V4 #214
• RE: Slap in the Face
• RE: Slap in the Face
• RE: Avodah V4 #214
• Creation and age of the universe
• Batlanim vs. Tovei Ha'Ir vs. Lomdei Torah
• re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re: Slap in the Face
• Re:Kollel support (was problem kids)
• Re: Slap in the Face

In a message dated 12/26/99 10:04:00 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< To insure that the best minds that are oriented to
 Torah learning are not sidetracked and enticed away
 from learning, I believe the present system is a good
 one.  Everyone should go through the system until he
 has completed at least one or two years of Torah study
 post high school.  It is at this point where a
 "correction" in the system need be applied.  
  >>

This is probably right. It'd be nice, though, if each of us might be given a 
second crack at full-time Torah learning, say 25 or 30 years after an initial 
decision to do something else. It would be difficult to describe my state of 
spiritual innocence -- and ignorance -- when I was a college sophomore. The 
ignorance, in fact, came in so many varieties that I am fortunate to be 
around to look back on it. As a class, college sophomores can't be expected 
to evaluate meaningfully the talents HaShem has given each of them. Really 
important decisions should await middle-age.

David Finch

Noah Witty wrote:


> Dear Reb Mordechai/Reb Daniel:

Sorry, I'm not either of them, but I have answers so I'll speak up
anyway...


> After davening, I brought his attention to the fact that since may-ain sheva
> acts as a chazaras ha-sha+ACI-tz, it should probably be treated as a shmoneh
> esrai and one's feet should remain together and still (relatively).


Rashi in Shabbat 24b explains that since batei kenisiot were on the
outskirts of town, and some people finished after the majority, Hazal
established Birkat me'en Sheva to give everyone a chance to catch up, so
they could all leave together to walk back to town. I don't have a Mishneh
Berura source, just that.

And the Kaf HaHaiim brings a medrash of a certain Rav who appeared to his
student in a dream. The student saw that his Rebbe had a mark on his
forehead, and asked why. The Rav told him that it was because he hadn't
been careful not to talk during Me'en Sheva and kaddish. (Siman
Resh-Samech, Ot Tet-Zayin)

Nothing about feet that I can fid, though.


> 2)  I got the same type of response--but reversed--from someone who insisted
> that it says somewhere in MB that a hefsek in Hallel Shalem (it was
> Chanukah) for kedushah, amen-yehay shmaih rabba, etc., is +ACo-not+ACo- permitted.


According to my siddur, (Ish Mazliah) during Halel Gamur we answer:

Kaddish - 5 Amens and Amen YSh"R until D'Amiran Be'Alma
Kedusha - Kadosh and Baruch
Modim DeRabanan - Only the words "Modim Anahnu Lach"
Barechu - Answer
Berachot - Answer


---sam

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It is nothing short of amazing that several posters, based on their personal
experiences,
have urged list members to violate an unequivocal Issur D'Oraisa.  There is
no
question that there are corrupt Botei Din and little question that Mr.
Klagsbrun's
personal experiences are painful. At the same time it is nothing short of
absurd to
tar all Batei Din because of his experiences (Has he been to EVERY BEIS DIN
in the US?).
I can comment from my own experience that I was in an adversarial situation
in a
Beis Din and found it to be reasonable and fair - I know of several others
that are
regarded as honest.  The appropriate response to this problem is to accept
reality,
refuse to go to a dishonest Beis Din, and observe the Halacha.  No Beis Din
will
issue a Seruv against someone who says "I insist on going to Beis Din
Ploni."

Melech

M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is nothing short of amazing that =
several=20
posters, based on their personal experiences, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>have urged </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>list=20
members to violate an unequivocal Issur D'Oraisa.&nbsp; There is no=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>question that there are </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>corrupt Botei Din and little question that Mr. Klagsbrun's =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>personal experiences are painful. =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>At the same time it is nothing short of absurd to=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>tar all Batei Din because of his =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>experiences (Has he been to EVERY BEIS DIN in the=20
US?).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I can comment from </FONT><FONT =
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size=3D2>my own experience that I was in an adversarial situation in=20
a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Beis Din and found </FONT><FONT =
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size=3D2>it to be reasonable and fair - I know of several others that=20
are</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>regarded as honest.&nbsp; The =
appropriate=20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>response to this problem is to accept =

reality,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>refuse to go to a dishonest Beis Din, =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>and observe the Halacha.&nbsp; No Beis Din =
will</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>issue a Seruv against someone who says =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>"I insist on going to Beis Din =
Ploni."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Melech</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>M. Press, Ph.D.<BR>Professor of =
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Touro College<BR><A =
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----- Original Message -----
From: Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: Slap in the Face


> > I do not believe that was or is part of the basis for their position.
There
> > is no way to know if a peace is true or not when you sign the dotted
line.
> > One is permitted to risk an operation that is experimental and
potentially
> > fatal if it may save the patient's life (a famous teshuva by R' Chaim
Ozer
> > Grodzhenski in the Achiezer). Hu ha'din b'nidon didan.
>
> I don't have that tshuva in front of me, but I think the Achiezer only
> permitted such an operation after exhausting all other alternatives.
> That is definitely NOT what happened b'nidon didan. We took an
> organization that was on its deathbed and revived it, and now we
> continue to go forward in a "process" in which it has yet to fulfill a
> single commitment. Something is VERY wrong here.
>

I do not think that is an accurate assessement of RCO's position. See
Achiezer 2:16:6. See also the massive collection of poskim in Nishmas
Avrohom YD 155 p. 46 and on.

But, once you have raised the issue, I am curious: What, indeed, is the
alternative? It seems to me that the "Right Wing" would actually want to do
away with the Arabs peshuto k'mashma'o. I certainly do not see any other
alternative to what is happening. I am happy to be enlightened.

> Also, it is my understanding of both RYBS zt"l and lehavdil bein
> chayim lechayim ROY that they both hold that it is permitted to
> give up land only to save lives of persons who might otherwise be
> killed R"L in the event of war. It appears to me that either of them
> would at least require some reasonable basis for at least having a
> hava amina that giving up land would save lives - something which
> has been sorely lacking up to now.
>

It actually seems to me that lives are being saved now every day: There have
been no major terrorist attacks, B"H, for several years, and soldiers are
not getting killed in Yv'S or Azza either. But, my understanding of RYBS and
ylctv"a ROY's position, is that they held that we follow the opinions of the
"kefeila arama'a" here, i.e., the generals. So, it seems to me that Barak is
probably as big an expert as anyone.

> > > And there is *no* evidence that the PA is interested in such a peace.
>
> Do I gather that RYGB has no answer to this contention?
>

I have no illusions about the PA. It seems to me that Barak et al calculate
that greater Israeli security and morale is served by retreating from areas
of Arab populace regardless of the hostility of those populations. I think
this is a legitimate reckoning (which may be wrong, but may be right).

> Where in Nedarim 54?
>

I do not know what I was thinking! Sorry! AZ 52b!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #214


> No question, but neither has the kdusha of Yerushalayim (which is
> what started this discussion).
>

Sorry, but I cannot understand why carting off the dirt under a mosque
pertains and impacts so critically on Kedushas Yerushalayim that it is worth
making  a fuss over it to such an extent. Even if the mosque is on the HhB.

> > I am curious as to how you would like to apply "Lo Techaneim" here. They
are
> > choneh already. Can you prove that granting them the inevitable
statehood
> > enhances the extant chanayah ba'karka to the extent that it would
constitute
> > an additional prohibition?
>
> I think the question is how much more land the government will give
> them before granting them "inevitable statehood." If they were to
> get statehood based on what they have now, it would not be viable
> which is the only reason they aren't pushing their self-styled
> declaration of independence in the first place.
>
> If anything, since the State of Israel has no
> > intention of "transferring" its Arab population, it probably would
diminish
> > its "aveirah" of Lo Techaneim" by relinquishing the areas of Arab
population
> > so that the State would not be in the position of having Goyim "tachas
> > yadam" and allowing their continued residence.
>
> Yes, except the PA is demanding that we also "transfer" all of the
> Jews out of any adjacent areas, i.e. turn the land over to them.
> Additional "lo sechaneim?"
>

As far as I understand, the government of the State of Israel has not agreed
to that demand, at least not vis-a-vis yishuvim it authorized. Does the
government transgress Lo Sechaneim for retreating from yishuvim it did not
authorize? If anything, one has far more of a case of Lo Sechaneim in the
Golan, where the indigenous Arab population is currently slight, actual
annexation was declared, and the yishuvim were all authorized.

> Because, at least in the early days, Israel allowed the Arabs to
> control access to the mosques on the Har HaBayis, but the Arabs
> did not do anything to change the physical status quo up there.
> Now, that has changed too. What you do not see is that the goal of
> the Wakf is to deny any Jewish connection to Har HaBayis and to
> tell the big lie often enough and loud enough to convince the rest of
> the world of its validity.
>

As long as Hashem sees fit not to reveal to us an unambiguously red red
heifer, b'avonoseinu ha'rabbim, our connection to the HhB must stop at the
Kosel.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

> I do not think that is an accurate assessement of RCO's position. See
> Achiezer 2:16:6. See also the massive collection of poskim in Nishmas
> Avrohom YD 155 p. 46 and on.

The author of Nishmas Avrohom writes:

A patient who is seriously ill and will in all probability die within a
short period of time may, on expert advice, and with his consent, be given
an experimental drug or other treatment that offers a chance of cure, even
if there is also a risk that his life may thereby be further curtailed.

>
> But, once you have raised the issue, I am curious: What,
> indeed, is the
> alternative? It seems to me that the "Right Wing" would

Who is this "Right Wing"? NRP? Gush? PIE? The Eida? Neturei Karta? Kach?
Temple Mount Faithful?

They "all" have different takes on the situation.

>
> It actually seems to me that lives are being saved now every
> day: There have
> been no major terrorist attacks, B"H, for several years, and

And many *failed* attacks -- one this last week in Netanya, another a few
weeks ago in Aza, another a few weeks before that when the bomb went off in
Hebron while they were building it...

It's not for lack of trying.

> soldiers are
> not getting killed in Yv'S or Azza either.

there are attacks against the Jews in Yv'S on an almost daily basis. It
doesn't make the papers because it's not PC.

> But, my understanding of RYBS and
> ylctv"a ROY's position, is that they held that we follow the
> opinions of the
> "kefeila arama'a" here, i.e., the generals. So, it seems to
> me that Barak is probably as big an expert as anyone.

For every general for, there is one of equal expertise against. That's why
it's such an uncertainty.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

>
> Emotionally, yes. But that was not what R' Akiva asked, was it?
>

My original comment was in defense of the WIG -- that they see an issue that
they (and their Rabbonim) feel is important, in this case Kedushas Har
HaBayis. They are willing to go out and *act* on that concern.

If one holds that Kedushas HarHabayis is *not* an issue worth acting on, or
that this case doesn't involve Kedushas HarHaBayis, then one can disagree
with their actions.

While I agree with you that the idea of "yishuv HaAretz kneged kulam" can
be, and has been in some circles, taken to an extreme, I would hesitate to
accuse these women, whose actions stem from Ahavas Yisroel and concern for
the safety and security of Am Yisrael, of AZ (which Leibowitz probably
would).

> Yes, we need to be holistic. But intellect over all else.
> And, intellect
> should dictate that there are certain battles that are not
> going to produce the desired result.

Like the conquest of Eretz Yisrael? Yericho?

What about Emunah in HKBH? What about doing Ratzon HaShem?

What does one do when "intellect" is in conflict with Emunas HaShem or
Ratzon HaShem?

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

> As far as I understand, the government of the State of Israel
> has not agreed
> to that demand, at least not vis-a-vis yishuvim it
> authorized.

It already started -- a few of the "settlements" that were shut down
recently were build with all the proper authorizations from the government.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

The following are letters that appeared in the UK's Jewish Chronicle in
response to an article on Dr Schroeder's thesis. Since this topic has
been discussed here in the past I thought it may be of interest.
Unfortunately the original article doesn't seem to be available online.
The JC's website is http://www.jchron.co.uk/.

David Herskovic




Creation and age of the universe

As a retired professor of mathematics, I found the "scientific" ideas by
which Dr Gerald Schroeder equated 15 billion years with six bib-lical
days - as described by Simon Rocker (Alternative Minyan, Dec-ember 3) -
totally unsound.
Dr Schroeder distinguishes "cosmic time" - appropriate to the tiny size
of the universe just after the Big Bang - from earth-bound time, and
finds that they are in the correct ratio.  There is no space here to
expose the many scientific fallacies of his arguments, but one
paradoxical consequence is easily understood.
The sequence of events at a given point in space remains the same
regardless of the time-scale; only their duration can differ.
Thus, if by biblical reckoning there were only two or three sunrises and
sunsets between the start of the animal world and the creation of man,
that number must stay the same, whatever the time-scale.
If you accept the existence of dino-saurs and other such creatures, then
in each region of the earth, thousands of generations must have lived in
permanent daylight, followed by an equally long period of darkness.
No birds or mammals could have lived under such conditions, yet their
fossils go back millions of years.
(Professor) R. A. Sack,
Basil Street, London SW3.

Simon Rocker presented some interesting ideas about the celestial
time-line of the universe and the description, in Genesis, of Creation
occurring in six days. There appears, however, to be a notable error.
He quotes Dr Schroeder as follows: "Our universe has been ex-panding
since its creation 15 billion years ago… As the universe becomes more
compressed… time becomes more compressed… the compression factor is a
trillion. When you take the estimated age of the universe, which is 15
billion years, and you divide it by a trillion, you get six days."
The mathematical sequence leading to the conclusion that the age of the
universe equals 15 billion years equals six days, over a correction
factor of one billion, is correct.
But then one has an equation which states that the total age of the
universe equals six days, not that the Creation took place over six
days.
Fred Korr,
Los Angeles, California, USA.

My ability to question the accuracy of Dr Schroeder's logic concerning
the age of the universe and the biblical six days of Creation is
simplified by his poor mathematics.
However many naughts there are in one billion and in one trillion - they
differ in the US and Europe -one can never arrive, in his calculation,
at the number six.
Trying to explain events and narratives in the Torah by reference to
modern science and technology and through the process of
pseudo-scientific hypothesis turns many an intelligent Jew away from
Orthodoxy.
What really matters is that Orthodox Jews and modern scientists live in
harmony and respect each other's point of view.
(Dr) John Slome,
Walm Lane, London NW2.

Many readers must have been grateful for Dr Schroeder's fascinating
explanation of how six biblical days can equal 15 billion worldly years.
His illuminating analogy of the expanding balloon reminded me of the
explanation of how the telephone works, as told by one Jew to another in
turn-of-the-century Minsk:
"Imagine a dog. Its head is in Minsk, and its feet are in Pinsk.  When
the dog barks in Minsk, you hear it in Pinsk. It's the same with the
telephone, only without the dog."
A classic of Jewish didactic expertise!
(Dr) Harold Shukman,
St Antony's College, Oxford.

The definition of BATLANIM is "b'teilin mi'melachtan v'oskin b'tzorchei
tzibbur" (Rema in Orach Chaim 688:1). This is to be differentiated from
TOVEI HA'IR (the 7 tovei ha'ir) and LOMDEI TORAH which is defined in
Yoreh Deah 246:1 (and apropos kollel, see what the Rema writes in YD 246:21).

Josh

RYGB wrote: <<
(I believe that there are opinions that Moslems fulfill the parameters of
Ger Toshav anyway, although I do not think I agree.) >>

Why not?

KT,
Shlomo Godick
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 1:01 AM
Subject: RE: Slap in the Face


> The author of Nishmas Avrohom writes:
>
> A patient who is seriously ill and will in all probability die within a
> short period of time may, on expert advice, and with his consent, be given
> an experimental drug or other treatment that offers a chance of cure, even
> if there is also a risk that his life may thereby be further curtailed.
>

I think this is an accurate assessement of the current situation.

> Who is this "Right Wing"? NRP? Gush? PIE? The Eida? Neturei Karta? Kach?
> Temple Mount Faithful?
>

Tell me about them all.

> And many *failed* attacks -- one this last week in Netanya, another a few
> weeks ago in Aza, another a few weeks before that when the bomb went off
in
> Hebron while they were building it...
>
> It's not for lack of trying.
>
> > soldiers are
> > not getting killed in Yv'S or Azza either.
>
> there are attacks against the Jews in Yv'S on an almost daily basis. It
> doesn't make the papers because it's not PC.
>

The Jews who chose to live in Yv'S knew they would confront such dangers.

As to the attacks that are thwarted, if we look for yad Hashem, and He is
causing attacks to be thwarted now, it seems that either He is pro-peace or
intent on "meishiv da'as Chachomim achor".

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

RHM wrote: <<
Who should we support... The "worst and the
stupidest"?
Another poster put it well.  When it comes to Schar
than EFFORT is what counts. The gemmorah talks about
the three month journey to the  Beis Hamedrash to
learn for just one day and then three months back. 
That person gets Schar as if he learned the entire
year. But this schar is Min Hashomayim.  We mortals on
earth who pay financial compensation want the best and
brightest because we want to produce the best Kle
Kodesh for society...  whether it be Gedolei Hatorah,
Gedolei HaPoskim, Roshei Yeshiva, Roshei Kollel,
Rebbeim in high schools or mechanchim in elementey
school, or people involved in Kiruv.  You name it the
list of jewish societal requirements is huge.  If we
support less thean the best we are going to reap less
than the best.  We don't need second rate poskim any
more than we need second rate doctors, or second rate
anything.  >>

Yes, but your criterion for judging a person's utility to 
society is very positivist.   What about the more metaphysical
benefits of learning to society?  A person may be a fantastic
lamdan, creating many zchusim for Am Yisrael by virtue of 
his learning b'hislahavus, and yet be totally incompetent as
a teacher or rabbinical leader.    Because he has trouble
objectifying his learning into marketable. real-world benefits,
are we to deny Am Yisrael the "other-worldly" benefit
of his learning? 

KT,
Shlomo Godick

----- Original Message -----
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 1:41 AM
Subject: RE: Slap in the Face


> >
> > Emotionally, yes. But that was not what R' Akiva asked, was it?
> >
>
> My original comment was in defense of the WIG -- that they see an issue
that
> they (and their Rabbonim) feel is important, in this case Kedushas Har
> HaBayis. They are willing to go out and *act* on that concern.
>
> If one holds that Kedushas HarHabayis is *not* an issue worth acting on,
or
> that this case doesn't involve Kedushas HarHaBayis, then one can disagree
> with their actions.
>
> While I agree with you that the idea of "yishuv HaAretz kneged kulam" can
> be, and has been in some circles, taken to an extreme, I would hesitate to
> accuse these women, whose actions stem from Ahavas Yisroel and concern for
> the safety and security of Am Yisrael, of AZ (which Leibowitz probably
> would).
>

I do not accuse anyone of anything. Do the WIG also crusade for tzeni'us,
talmud torah, etc. with the same fervor as HhB?

> What about Emunah in HKBH? What about doing Ratzon HaShem?
>
> What does one do when "intellect" is in conflict with Emunas HaShem or
> Ratzon HaShem?
>

One normally determines Ratzon Hashem based on intellectual assessment.
Perhaps you would like to propose a Chassidic/Misnagdic dichotomy in this
regard?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

*********************


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