Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 242

Sunday, January 2 2000

• re: Value of Shas
• Re: Moshe's free will, objective psak, some other issues
• RE: Source for Agunah praying
• Question on Ramban
• Re: Avodah V4 #238
• Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• RE: baruch goldstein
• Re: sefardi minhag
• Re: Avodah V4 #238
• Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?)
• Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir
• Altalena
• Outlawing Chilul Shabbos by Legislation (was Re: Orthodoxy and return of land)

On 31 Dec 99, at 13:34, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> Carl Sherer wrote <<< I think what the Mishna in Pirkei Avos is telling
> us when it says "ben eser shanim laMishna, ben chamesh esrei laGmara" and
> then doesn't mention any text we are supposed to learn beyond that, is
> that between the ages of 10 and 15, we are supposed to develop a bkiyus
> in Mishna, which stays with us when we start learning Gmara at 15. >>>
> 
> According to this, we should stop learning Chumash when we turn ten.

No. But I think what that Mishna is saying is that one's primary 
learning, i.e. where one puts most of his kochos, should be in 
Chumash from ages 5-10, in Mishna from ages 10-15 and in 
Gemara thereafter. By age 10, one should develop a bkiyus in 
Torah shebichsav, and by age 15 an expertise in Mishna such that 
after that point they are no longer the main focus of his learning, 
but rather they are used in learning the next step (Mishna from age 
10, Gemara from age 15).

My 9th grade son (age 14) does not have a Chumash class qua 
Chumash class. They have a Parshas HaShavua class and he has 
a class in Gur Aryeh, although I think the latter may have a lot to 
do with his Rebbe's expertise in Maharal. The overwhelming portion 
of his week is spent studying Gemara.

Yes, I know, I have to reconcile this with the Gemara in Kiddushin 
(30) and with the Rambam in Hilchos Talmud Torah (1:11), but that 
will take a little more thought....

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On Fri, Dec 31, 1999 at 03:27:25PM -0500, C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:
: Re: Moshe Rabeinu's free will, rather than speculate on whether Moshe's 
: bechira was equal to Adam's (which the Meshech Chochma *doesn't* address in 
: P' Braishis)...

To be clear, I was comparing Moshe Rabbeinu's lack of bechirah to that of
mal'achim -- as the quote in question does. And, lefi the Ohr Same'ach on
Yesodei HaTorah (an article titled "Hakol Tzafui vihaRshus Nesunah"), their
lack does bear strong resemblence to the Rambam's havanah of Adam kodem
hacheit. That similarity had little to do with my point. I was applying a
statement of RYGB on the OS across the Meshech Chochmah's comparison.

:           Meshech Chochma writes that Moshe could not violate G-d's will; the 
: sin of Mei Meriva wasn't Moshe violating G-d's will, but Moshe failing to 
: take the initiative to solve the problem before receiving a directive from 
: G-d.

I don't understand. If in the ideal Moshe should have taken initiative, then
his *choosing* to receive a directive was (lulei dimitztafina hayisi omer) an
incorrect use of his bechirah.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Going through material for Toras Aish (I've recently been added to the
editorial board) I found the following in "Hamaayan" <hamaayan@torah.org>
for Shimos 5760, one of the longest running i'net parashah sheets put together
by Shlomo Katz <skatz@torah.org>.

: "During those many days, it happened that the king of Egypt died, and Bnei
: Yisrael groaned because of the work and they cried out. Their outcry because
: of the work went up to G-d." (2:23)

: R' Yaakov David Willowsky z"l observes: The seemingly redundant language,
: "Bnei Yisrael groaned because of the work and they cried out," means:
: They groaned because of the work and they cried out because of the Egyptian
: taskmasters who oppressed them. Significantly, only their cries that were
: because of the work went up to G-d; their cries that were because of their
: Egyptian taskmasters do not seem to have been answered.

: Why? It is always proper to call out to G-d to save yourself from your own
: suffering. However, Chazal teach that if the oppressed calls upon G-d to
: judge his oppressor, G-d will judge the oppressed first.

: We read later (3:7): "I have indeed seen the affliction of My people that
: is in Egypt and I have heard its outcry because of its taskmasters, for I
: have known of its sufferings." Does this verse not appear to contradict the
: lesson stated above? R' Willowsky explains that it is to answer this question
: that Hashem concluded, "for I have known of its suffering." This means: It is
: true that one is not supposed to complain about his oppressor, only about the
: oppression, but I have seen how great their suffering is and I know that the
: fact that they complained against their taskmasters is involuntary. Therefore
: the Torah continues, emphasizing (3:9): "And now, behold! The outcry of Bnei
: Yisrael has come to Me." Although they cried out against their oppressors,
: I view it as if they cried out for themselves alone. (Nimukei Ridvaz)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 30-Dec-99: Chamishi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 91b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Acc. to Ramban, Moshe thought the shepards of Midyan unjustly took the water 
that the daughters of Miryam had drawn into the troughs for their animals.  
Question: how were the daughters koneh the water?  The troughs and pails I 
imagine were hefker in a makom hefker.

-Chaim

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 01:11:51 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject: Bes din

> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:19:50 -0500
> From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> Subject: Re: Bes Din
>
<<Obtain written, signed waivers from dayanim that they will hold me
harmless from any liability arising from my disclosing their wrong
doings,  and I will be glad to provide an earful of information.>>

>I am not a lawyer and do not know what the implications are if you
>reveal information which is factually correct.

>However,  you do urge the readers of this list to act.  I ask again and
>again,  bottom line,  what should any of us do?  Those with information
>are not sharing it,  but you would have us do battle with virtually every
>beis din in America on virtually no facts.

>Please propose a reasonable course of behavior.

>Gershon


Actually, if you will look back to the beginning of this discussion, you
will see that it started not as a call to action, but as a request, although
a strongly worded one, that a person who (later) admitted to knowing NOTHING
about the bias din' situation in America refrain from persuading other
uninformed individuals to blindly enter 'botai din'.

I do not remember posting or seeing a posted request for you to take any
action. At one point I (and perhaps Mr. Schwartz agreed) wrote that there
would be no change UNTIL there is a popular demand placed upon the Orthodox
communal leadership. This is  statement of fact, the accuracy of which I
stand by one hundred percent, except to allow for the possibility that the
change will come when the daughter of a Kotler, Schwartzman Birnbaum, etc,
is Chas V'shalom entrapped in a state of Igun.

A statement of fact does not equal a request for action. It is a
presentation of facts, which, if accepted, and cause concern, may stimulate
others to action. For instance, had I done research into the matter, might
state that the government of Peru will not be overthrown in favor of an
American style representational - parliamentary system until all Americans
begin wearing leotards. That would not qualify as a request from me to you
to begin wearing a leotard. Only those interested in overthrowing the
Peruvian government ( I AM NOT ADVOCATING AN OVERTHROW OF THE PERUVIAN
GOVERNMENT HERE!!!!) would be advised to follow this advice.


Good Woch

Simcha

What I meant by "shiving" was "shoving".  Sorry about
the typo.  

I need to explain myself better.  I do not think it is
a good idea to try and legislate away chilul shabbos.
For example, Chilonim who are mostly in a category of
Tinok Shenishboh, want to go to a movie on Shabbos. 
They want to drive in order to get there. Chareideim
see this as an insult to their way of life.  Closing
down a main thoroughfare in Jerusalem like "Bar Ilan "
street is a nice idea if you are Shomer shabbos but if
you are not, it's just going to get you upset.  How do
we get these 2 irreconcilable differnces to live
together?  IMHO,  We leave movie theaters open on
shabbos, we keep Bar Ilan open on Shabbos and we try
to win over the hearts and minds of these people by
being more welcoming and understanding. I'm not saying
we should open up new theaters btu leave the staus quo
alone, for now. Kiruv works much better when you don't
legislate (shove) halacha.  WE know it's assur to
drive on shabbos.  THEY don't.  Until we flexed our
political muscle they were ignorantly blissful to be
Mechalel Shabbos and privately laugh at our "old time
religion". By befriending them, engaging in discussion
with them, and in general being nice to them we might
actually be Mekarev them.  Instead, there seems to be
hostile attitude on the part of Charedi society that
totally writes off chilonim as implacable.  They see
Chilonim as  Rishoim Gemurim intersted only in the
undermining of the Torah.  Even if this is now true to
a certain extent I think a lot of it has to do with
the struggle over who is going to decide the character
of the State, The Rabbis or the People.  Why after
all, do Chilonim look at it this way?  Because we have
taken to forcing Kiyum Shabbos on them through
legilation, instead of trying to win them over with
kindness. Now they hate us. The more we try and
legislate Halacha into the State the more they are
going to hate us and do everything they can to destroy
Torah Judaism as the guiding light of the Nation. 

Of course there are those who think that these
Chilonim are Rishoim and there is no other way to deal
with people like this.  But in fact let's compare the
situation here in the US with that in Israel. In the
US there is a much more civil discourse between the
non-orthodox Jews and the Orthodox Jews.  There is
even a certain degree of respect and even admiration
towards our fealty to tradition. In all of my
encounters with the Jewish Federation here in Chicago,
there has been nothing but respect and this translates
to major dollars toward all of the Mosdos.  Federation
has thus become more aware than ever of the value of
Jewish education and it's importance to Jewish
survival.  Contrast that with chiloni attitude towards
the charedi society. Why the difference?  I think it
is because we don't shove religion down their throats.
 

HM

--- "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
wrote:

> It's time to
> > stop bashing each other and to find ways so that
> we
> > can live together.
> 
> absolutely.
> 
> We have to stop shiving religion
> > down their throats and they have to stop forcing
> > chilul Shabbos and Tarfus down our throats.
> 
> Much "coercion" is psychological.  (from what I've
> heard fwiw this is NOT
> the case in Iran)
> Exposure to religion, an invitation to put on
> tefillin or light candles, is
> (usually :-) not shiving religion down their
> throats.  Many secular Jews see
> it that way because it is so personally threatening.
>  Concerning modest
> dress, this is requested in Meah Shearim and at the
> cotel, but elsewhere-
> the beach or the midrechov,  any yirei shamayim
> simply don't look and/or
> avoid the place.  People naturally detest anything
> they perceive as a
> "holier than thou" attitude, whether it's real or
> simply the result of a
> conviction and enthusiasm, and it's esp aggravating
> if some smothered voice
> inside them is telling them perhaps they should be
> following their example.
> In the case of forcing "chilul Shabbos and Tarfus" 
> -  relatively rare.
> Very rarely someone wants to be provocative and
> rides a motor bike up and
> down our street, but mostly they just go for a trip.
>  If we see chilul
> Shabbos  we may experience personal spiritual pain,
> but they're not doing it
> davka to annoy or coerce, they do it because they
> refuse to see anything
> wrong with it.  Naturally there are people who flout
> their way of life in
> order  to upset the charedim, but mostly,  a lack of
> appreciation for
> kedusha is sadly & simply that.  Of course, I'm
> talking EY here.
> 
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> First off -- I NO NOT SUPPORT his actions, not the
> actions or words of the
> Kiryat Arba settlers. I find them repulsive.
> 
> >
> > Do you have proof?
> 
> Only incidental -- during the Gulf War the one
> direct victim of a SCUD was
> driving on Shabbat when he was killed by broken
> glass.
> 
> In several drosos after the war, I heard several
> different Rabbanim say that
> even he died AKH for the reason I mentioned.

I've often heard this same reason given for calling
the 6 million Kedoshim who were killed in the
Holocaust eventhough not all of them were Frum.  The
fact that they were killed because the were Jewish
made them Kidoshim, dying al Kidush Hashem.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com

Going back a few months, we had a discussion of baby wipes on Shabbat, and
I faxed RYGB a couple of pages from Menuchat Ahava and Yalkut Yosef on the
subject.

I've realized recently why we had a difference on baby wipes.

Ashkenazim are mahmir on a pesik resha on a rabbanan. Sefardim are mekil.

Another example is a cake with letters on it on Shabbat. Ashkenazim won't
cut the cake, will you? R' Ovadiah says no problem, there's no intent of
re-writing, so the erasing is derabbanan, and it's a pesik resha anyway,
as the cake is the point, not erasing the words written on it.

I saw something interesting once. The Hida asks regarding Hillel and
Shammai, how they could be so diametrically opposed, one mekil and the
other mahmir, so consistently. Was Shammai trying to make peoples lives
difficult? Was Hillel perhaps "bending" halacha to make life easier?

No. He writes that we are all descended from the single neshama of Adam
HaRishon. We know that different parts of the body represent different
things, sefirot, midot, etc. So, says the Hida, Hillel's neshama was a
helek of Adam's right hand, Hesed, and Shammai's was from the left,
Gevurah. It was just an outlook on life colored by the general inclination
of each.

I wonder sometimes if Hachmei Ashkenaz are descended from Shammai. No
offense intended.


---sam

In a message dated 1/1/00 7:29:58 PM US Central Standard Time, 
S.Klagsbrun@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:

<< had I done research into the matter, might
 state that the government of Peru will not be overthrown in favor of an
 American style representational - parliamentary system until all Americans
 begin wearing leotards. That would not qualify as a request from me to you
 to begin wearing a leotard. Only those interested in overthrowing the
 Peruvian government ( I AM NOT ADVOCATING AN OVERTHROW OF THE PERUVIAN
 GOVERNMENT HERE!!!!) would be advised to follow this advice.
 
 >>
I know nothing in Shas that forbids leotards, if they are worn loosely and 
modestly. They are comfortable, and if black will coordinate in color with 
other observant dress. I do not understand, however, why the wearing of 
leotards should affect one's opinion of the Peruvian government, at least at 
the time the leotards are actually being worn. While the actual mandate to 
overthrow the Peruvian government has doubtless been discussed among the more 
recent Gedolim (thus your use of it as an example), I am not aware that these 
discussions were conducted in the specific context of leotards, at least 
leotards worn by Americans. While of course I accept your analysis -- I 
certainly accept your admonition that your reference to leotards is not to be 
taken as a revolutionary mandate in South America -- some citation to 
authority would be helpful. Thanks.

David Finch

Curious objections, RMF. I am ot sure I even understand them.

I would think Rabbi Lessin, longtime Mashgiach at YU, would probably differ
with you on the issue of mussar.

And, of course YU was patterned on Telshe. That is where Dr. Revel
originated.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Frankel <mechyfrankel@zdnetonebox.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?)


> RYGB writes:  <YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin the same
> as any other (at least, RIETS is, not the other branches). It is not
> the equivalent of RYY Reines' Lida. The derech in YU is precisely that
> of Rav Dessler and the CI, only with formal limudei chol (as opposed
> to the informal at Volozhin and Slabodka) thrown in. Yosef Gavriel
Bechhofer>
>
>
> the perception of voloshin as the mother of yeshivas, or the first
yeshivah,
> generally obscures the true chidush of voloshin - and thus blur the nature
> of the debt that other litvish and non-litvish yeshivas alike owe
voloshin,
> and obscures as well the very major differences between a place like
> voloshin and, say, a slobodka, which nobody a 100 years ago would have
> casually grouped in the manner done above.
>
> There been yeshivos mi'qadmas di'noh. countless numbers of yeshivas before
> (and after) voloshin as well. voloshin's true chidush was entirely
organizational
> and financial. it is the first "modern" ashqenazi yeshivah independent
> of the local inhabitants, not financially or administratively beholden
> to the local townsfolk and the local rov. it was the first "national"
> yeshivah which essentially invented (at least for educational
institutions)
> the system of far flung fund raising and its associated infrastructure
> of people "connected" to the yeshivah. (I'm ignoring the much earlier
> models of the "two yeshivos" in gaonic bovel which shared many of the
> same attributes, but which most people would, properly, have difficulty
> perceiving as a continuum with the 19th century versions. of course other
> pan-national fund raising models were well established, most notably
> the proto-UJAs for support of israelis). for  for the first time ever,
> it essentially turned the tables on the local town, becoming an
independent
> economic and spiritual force with substantial local leverage. The voloshin
> difference as perceived by both those both inside and outside the
yeshivah,
> as compared to the more common low-status arrangements where the bochurim
> would "eat taig" (as my father a"h was still doing more than a hundred
> years later in the hungarian world) represented a revolutionary increase
> in real status.
>
> But Slobodka was not voloshin, though it did follow the new administrative
> mold of "independent" yeshivas (though the real power, i.e., control
> of the purse, was, in slobodka, vested in the masgiach, rather than the
> rosh yeshivah as in voloshin). The learning in slobodka was radically
> different, as slobodka developed into a "mussar' yeshiva and not without
> great opposition (leading to at least one breakup of the yeshiva - whereby
> the mussarniks, who were a distinct minority - but no matter since they
> controlled the all important funding - actually left and restarted a
> new yeshivah).  Other litvish yeshivas developed their own chidushim,
> such as the introduction of "classes", "advancement", "tests" etc.
generally
> all foreign to the real voloshin. in my days at YU, mussar (in the sense
> of a formal educational program I hasten to add) was little in formal
> evidence, though an individual rosh yeshiva or so may have learnt there,
> and in that sense it might be considered in the voloshin mold. But the
> differences extend well beyond the grafting of a secular program on a
> yeshivah.  - every thing else associated with the formal structure of
> class hierarchies, regular metrics, etc was decidedly un-voloshin like.
> perhaps we should rather cite telz as an inspiration for yu (a completely
> innocent suggestion unfortunately likely to produce symmetrical revulsion
> in NY and cleveland). and it was most definitely even further from the
> great mussar learning enterprise of slabodka.
>
> Mechy Frankel H: (301) 593-3949
> michael.frankel@dtra.mil W: (703) 325-1277
>
>
> --
> Michael Frankel
> mechyfrankel@zdnetonebox.com - email
> (202) 777-2641 ext. 1299 - voicemail/fax
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> To get your own FREE ZDNet onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax,
> all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com
>

There have been a number of posts discounting the work of Barry 
Chamish and his claims that both Goldstein and Amir were framed. 
I do not mean in any way to condone Goldstein's and Amir's 
alleged actions, nor those of their supporters who refer to them as 
Kdoshim BECAUSE of what they allegedly did. But I think it's 
important to realize that Israeli justice is not American justice, and 
the Israeli government is not the American government. I would not 
be so quick as several posters have been to dismiss the 
conspiracy theories as out of hand.

Fifty years ago, most people did not believe that Yitzchak Rabin 
ordered the Haganah to fire on the Altelena. It's now clear that he 
did and they carried out the order.

Twenty-seven years ago, none of us believed that Richard Nixon 
was involved in the Watergate break-in. He was.

Five years ago, I doubt most of us would have believed it possible 
that Avishai Raviv was a Shabak agent. Today it is clear that he 
was; the only question remaining (which may be resolved at a trial 
if there ever is an open one - highly unlikely IMHO) is how much of 
his actions were known to the Shabak and how much was his own 
freelancing.

On the 11th of Cheshvan, the day observed as Yitzchak Rabin z"l's 
Yahrtzeit (I say observed because the murder actually took place 
on Motzei Shabbos which was already the 12th), his widow and 
daughter (who is now an MK herself) called for a new investigation 
into the assasination. Amongst the questions that Leah Rabin 
wants answered are why she was not taken directly to the hospital 
to be with her husband, why she was told not to worry and that her 
husband would be fine, and who yelled "srak srak" ("blanks 
blanks") after her husband was shot (which she clearly heard and 
said as much on the news that day) and why they did so. 
Obviously, SOMEONE in the field thought the whole assasination 
was a hoax. And supposedly no one was near the Rabins other 
than Yigal Amir and security personnel. For a day or two this made 
a lot of headlines, but since then we have heard nothing about it. 
As someone who has become more than cynical of the Israeli 
government, I could speculate a lot about why.

If the government wants to stop this kind of speculation, they could 
come clean and stop hiding behind "national security." Funny, 
Nixon hid behind that too.

So why didn't it come out during Netanyahu's time in power? I 
suspect because if it did, there wouldn't be a Shabak ("Sheirut 
Bitachon Clali" - General Security Agency - roughly the equivalent 
of the FBI and the Secret Service in the US rolled into one), and I'm 
not sure any Prime Minister is willing to take that chance.

In sum, I would not be so quick to dismiss the conspiracy theories 
as a lot of our (mostly American) correspondents on this list are.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

I actually have been thinking about the Altalena recently. It was Ben Gurion
himself, I believe, who ordered the fire, and Yigal Allon who transmitted
the order to Rabin. I am not sure they acted incorrectly. From their
perspective, Etzel (the Irgun) was mored b'malchus, and, thus b'geder
rodfim.

The stuff on Amir is irrelevant. Let us say their was a conspiracy gone
awry. Amir was proud of what he did, and there are people who defend what he
did. That is what counts b'nidon didan. But, I wonder if those who call
Goldstein a Kadosh would agree that Rabin was also a Kadosh.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org


----- Original Message -----
From: Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 12:03 AM
Subject: Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir


> Fifty years ago, most people did not believe that Yitzchak Rabin
> ordered the Haganah to fire on the Altelena. It's now clear that he
> did and they carried out the order.
>

On 1 Jan 00, at 17:52, Harry Maryles wrote:

> I need to explain myself better.  I do not think it is
> a good idea to try and legislate away chilul shabbos.

I don't think you can legislate away Chilul Shabbos unless you are 
going to invade people's homes to see what they are doing, 
something which I think most people on this list would find 
repulsive.

Nevertheless, I think that the State can and should restrict the 
ability of businesses to be open on Shabbos, and that roads which 
pass through fruhm neighborhoods can and should be closed. 

Why? Let me tell you a personal story. I made aliya after spending 
seven years as a corporate lawyer in New York City. I spent some 
of my time with white shoes (i.e. WASPy) law firms. I left one firm 
after I finally figured out that the reason I was getting slotted into 
the "wrong" assignments was that the assigning partner didn't want 
to have to deal with replacing me on Friday nights (subsequently 
confirmed to me by the assigning partner's next door neighbor). At 
another firm a (Jewish) partner suggested that I "change my 
religion" when I told him I could not be available on a Saturday. 
Both of the firms involved were big name firms, firms whose names 
every lawyer (and several non-lawyers) on this list would recognize.

If there were no laws against working on Shabbos in Israel, what do 
you think would happen? I submit that what would happen - maybe 
not immediately, but over the course of 20-30 years - is that you 
would have more and more jobs where you would not be hired if 
you would not work on Shabbos. You could legislate against that 
"mikan v'ad l'hodaa chadasha" and it still wouldn't help. Because if 
they didn't get you at the door, they would get you when you 
wanted to advance. Do you really think that's why we came on 
aliya?

So I don't look at laws against stores being open on Shabbos as 
forcing the frei not to be mechalel Shabbos. If they want to be 
mechalel Shabbos, it pains my neshama, but in the current state 
of affairs where we have no Sanhedrin and no Beis HaMikdash, I 
can't do anything about it, nor will I try to in a forceful manner. But I 
will oppose anything that may result in me or my descendants 
being less employable because we cannot and will not work on 
Shabbos.

 Closing
> down a main thoroughfare in Jerusalem like "Bar Ilan "
> street is a nice idea if you are Shomer shabbos but if
> you are not, it's just going to get you upset.  

Bar Ilan was closed based on an objective set of criteria adopted 
by the city which said that any street where a supermajority (and 
it's either 80 or 90% - it's a big number) of the residents are fruhm 
would be closed on Shabbos, and otherwise they would remain 
open. THERE IS NOT ONE FREI PERSON WHO LIVES ON THE 
AREA OF BAR ILAN IN QUESTION (from Shmuel HaNavi until 
Shamgar). NOT ONE! Additionally, on one side of Bar Ilan in the 
area in question, the sidewalks are so narrow that you have to walk 
single file, which, in a densely populated area, where everyone is 
Shomer Shabbos, would force people into the streets, endangering 
lives. 

Moreover, until the rabble rousers from Sheretz came along (this 
was before Tommy Lapid started his own party), the only people 
who used Bar Ilan to exit the city on Shabbos were Arabs from 
East Jerusalem. Not only is Bar Ilan all fruhm, but it is bounded (in 
that area) by Bucharim, Geula, Shmuel HaNavi, Sanhedria 
Murchevet, Gush Shominm, Ezras Torah, Kirayt Sanz, Kiryat Belz 
and Maatersdorf, all of which are entirely fruhm! Ramat Eshkol 
(which is now mostly fruhm as well) has another exit by French 
Hill. And three city commissions found again and again that part of 
Bar Ilan should be closed on Shabbos. 

How do
> we get these 2 irreconcilable differnces to live
> together?  IMHO,  We leave movie theaters open on
> shabbos, we keep Bar Ilan open on Shabbos and we try
> to win over the hearts and minds of these people by
> being more welcoming and understanding. I'm not saying
> we should open up new theaters btu leave the staus quo
> alone, for now. 

What do you think happened? Ten years ago, there were NO 
theaters open in Yerushalayim on Shabbos. When I came on aliya, 
Teddy Kollek was conducting a campaign to open the city for 
"entertainment" on Shabbos by standing at the exit to the city on 
Friday night and asking people why they were leaving. Then they 
opened the theaters in Talpiyot since that was NIMBY. And then 
they opened the pubs behind the Russian compound which was 
IMBY but they figured that with the police right there less problems 
were likely. So who is changing the status quo?

Kiruv works much better when you don't
> legislate (shove) halacha.  WE know it's assur to
> drive on shabbos.  THEY don't.  Until we flexed our
> political muscle they were ignorantly blissful to be
> Mechalel Shabbos and privately laugh at our "old time
> religion". 

Not really. Go back to Megillat haAtzmaut. Why isn't HKB"H 
referred to there? None of this is new. It's just that the left has had 
another generation to drift further away.

By befriending them, engaging in discussion
> with them, and in general being nice to them we might
> actually be Mekarev them.  

Highly unlikely unless there is first a real change in attitudes. 
Being mekarev Israelis is MUCH harder than being mekarev 
chutznikim. The people who do kiruv among Israelis do so in secret 
for lots of reasons. If you think that Charedim are hostile to 
Chilonim, you ought to ask Chilonim how they feel about "those 
leeches." I can't tell you how many times I was called a dos 
(derogatory term for Charedim) at work until I finally went to work in 
a place where everyone is fruhm.

Instead, there seems to be
> hostile attitude on the part of Charedi society that
> totally writes off chilonim as implacable.  They see
> Chilonim as  Rishoim Gemurim intersted only in the
> undermining of the Torah.  Even if this is now true to
> a certain extent I think a lot of it has to do with
> the struggle over who is going to decide the character
> of the State, The Rabbis or the People.  Why after
> all, do Chilonim look at it this way?  Because we have
> taken to forcing Kiyum Shabbos on them through
> legilation, instead of trying to win them over with
> kindness. Now they hate us. The more we try and
> legislate Halacha into the State the more they are
> going to hate us and do everything they can to destroy
> Torah Judaism as the guiding light of the Nation. 

Oh come on! No one is forcing them to keep Shabbos. There has 
been not one iota of legislation passed that has forbidden working 
on Shabbos where it was permitted before. OTOH, there are more 
and more attempts to make Am Yisrael b'Eretz Yisrael k'chol 
hagoyim R"L. Personally I am proud that there were no New Year's 
celebrations in Yerushalayim to speak of the night before last. 
Whether it was because the Rabbanut pressured the hotels or 
because the hotels realized on their own that it was the right thing 
to do, I can only say BARUCH HASHEM that the city of 
Yerushalayim showed a kdusha that's beyond the rest of the world, 
and even the rest of this country.

> Of course there are those who think that these
> Chilonim are Rishoim and there is no other way to deal
> with people like this.  But in fact let's compare the
> situation here in the US with that in Israel. In the
> US there is a much more civil discourse between the
> non-orthodox Jews and the Orthodox Jews.  

If you hadn't noticed, the US is not a Jewish state and no one is 
pretending that it is. Are you suggesting that we accept reform 
conversions too, R"L? There are some people who think that would 
make the Chilonim accept us.

There is
> even a certain degree of respect and even admiration
> towards our fealty to tradition. In all of my
> encounters with the Jewish Federation here in Chicago,
> there has been nothing but respect and this translates
> to major dollars toward all of the Mosdos.  Federation
> has thus become more aware than ever of the value of
> Jewish education and it's importance to Jewish
> survival.  

We don't have the intermarriage rates that you have, so the 
chilonim here know that as long as they stay here they will likely 
marry Jews. They feel that they don't need Jewish education to 
survive as Jews - that's for the galus. But stay tuned, because with 
all of the Russian aliya, that could be changing too R"L....

Contrast that with chiloni attitude towards
> the charedi society. Why the difference?  I think it
> is because we don't shove religion down their throats.

I don't think anyone in Israel is shoving religion down anyone's 
throats. If the status quo has moved in either direction in this 
generation, it has unfortunately moved away from fruhmkeit.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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