Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 254

Wednesday, January 5 2000

• Re: sports
• re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Avodah V4 #252
• Body parts
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Sports
• Registry of Who is a Jew
• OFF TOPIC - BY
• Derech Halimud
• Re: Avodah V4 #252
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Registry of "Who is a Jew"

--- Tobrr111@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Anyone interested in joining an Avoda Super Bowl
> pool? Im betting on on 
> the Dolphins.
> 

Bears, all the way!

What?...  They have? ... Never mind!

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--- Shlomo Godick <shlomog@mehish.co.il> wrote:

> 
> I think you are laboring here under a basic
> misconception.
> You seem to be under the impression that only
> "anshei 
> shlomeinu" will be registered, with the chilonim
> left
> to intermarry with the non-Jews.  From what I've
> read about
> the plans for the registry, an attempt will be made
> to
> register *all* kosher Yidden, chilonim included.  
> Now
> you can question how that can be done logistically.
> But that is a far cry from the questions you are
> asking here. 

That may be the PLAN but realisticly, no Chiloni will
want to register on such a list, especially in the
present climate in Israel, of great animosity between
the religious and non-religeous.

And...what about the logistics of registration? How
are we going to get everybody, even if it WERE only
"Unzereh".  What if a few Ksherim are inadvertantly
left out?  What happens to them?  The more I think
about it, the more of a nightmere it seems to become.

HM
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In a message dated 1/4/00 8:33:32 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< That may be the PLAN but realisticly, no Chiloni will
 want to register on such a list, especially in the
 present climate in Israel, of great animosity between
 the religious and non-religeous. >>

Why wouldn't the Chiloni register and then go back to their Chiloni 
lifestyles? Just as a piece of harmless insurance?

David Finch

It DOES hurt just to think about it.  The arguments
you make, I heard back in high school or perhaps even
before that (sans the statistics you quote). I
remember talk of some kind of Yichus registry even
then.  Things are much worse now as you point out. 
What to do?  I don't know.  As others have pointed out
this isn't the first time in history we've encountered
such a problem. The Maranos come to mind. So do the
Bne Israel of India and the Ethiopean's who both have
questionable Yechus. Poskim have been grappling with
those groups for some time now.  But, can you imagine
the scope of the problem if, by creating a registry,
we come to include the majority of Jews on the
questionable list? And what about the beauracracy that
would have to be created by such an undertaking?  It
would be open to all kinds of abuse. (Bribery to get
on the list or stay on the list etc.) 

I humbly submit that the very reasons you cite below
would have been reason enough to implement such a
registry in the past and most probably the reason it
wasn't is because of some of the issues raised here on
this thread.

HM

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Here in the US the most likely way the unthinkable
> can be avoided is bi'as
> hamoshiach.
> 
> Intermarriage is at roughly 60% outside the Orthodox
> community. I'm counting
> those who know they're intermarrying, those who
> marry non-kosher converts,
> and those who marry people whose father is Jewish.
> And, while Conservative
> Jewry follows rules closer to halachah's in this
> regard, they will accept
> Reform conversion-for-the-wedding post-facto.
> 
> So, we're talking about roughly 30% of the current
> generation that thinks
> they are Jewish aren't. Their children plus those
> who do the same in the
> next generation will come to 60.6% of the subsequent
> generation -- rov!
> 
> Add to that the US's high divorce rate, and the
> paucity of gittin amongst
> non-frum divorces. So, of the remaining 40%, we have
> significant numbers
> of mamzeirim.
> 
> How will it possibly be mutar for my grandchildren
> to marry into this
> community? Who'll remember whether bubbie had a get,
> or if great-grandma
> was a convert?
> 
> It hurts just to think about it.
> 
> -mi

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--- DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> 
> Why wouldn't the Chiloni register and then go back
> to their Chiloni 
> lifestyles? Just as a piece of harmless insurance?

This is the crux of the argument that is used by the
Orthodox when trying to persuade the Conservative and
Reform that All coversions should be done by The
Orthodox Rabbinate.  The argument is that only in this
way will ALL denominations consider the convert to be
a Jew, since the Orthodox cannot, and do not acccept
Conservative and Reform conversions, but both of those
denominations accept Orthodox conversions.  So why not
just have one standard that everyone accepts?
(Insurance, if you will)  

But we know what the response of the Conservative and
Reform has been: NO WAY.  They consider it an insult
to the integrity of the movement and will never accept
Orthodox criteria as the only method of conversion. 
And so do they preach to their flock.  Of course, any
sincere convert would want acceptance by all
denominations and would accept the "insurance" of an
Orthodox conversion. 

Problem is... many if not most conversions aren't
really sincere.

HM

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It doesn't take a lot of highfalutin philosphy, or innovative articulation
to "preach" that Torah without madda is for everybody. It's the madda part
that bears rationalization.

I'm not aware of any greaseball (black hat) institutaions thar preach their
"derech".as a THEIR derech. That is because they don't view themselves in
contradistinction to a YU type institution. I believe it is only the YU
world itself that sees itself as one of two choices of derachim. The black
hat yeshivas are simply teaching Torah, a "derech" I can't imagine a yorei
shomayim would have a problem with.

Aaron
______________________________________________________________

So I was merely illustrating that YU people were aware that Torah umadda is
NOT
for everybody.

This is in contradisctinction to some institutions who apprarently "preach"
that
that their derech is correct for all.

Rich Wolpoe

As a new subscriber to the avodah list I have already encountered a
chidush - that some people bury orlahs and, even, baby teeth.  I have 4
sons, and the mohel for the oldest is a well-known talmid chacham.  No
mohel ever informed me what I should do with the foreskins, nor have I
previously heard of their burial.  In fact, some Sephardim consider the
orlah a segulah for something or other.  Perhaps this is a secret that
mohelim have.  They just keep the foreskins and bury them.

As far as baby teeth are concerned.  What differentiates a dead tooth
from dead skin or nails or hair?  I know that some people burn nail
clippings, but I have never heard of anyone gathering hair clippings at
the barber.  Could someone provide some enlightenment?

Yitzchok Zlochower

In a message dated 1/4/00 9:16:42 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< So why not
 just have one standard that everyone accepts?
 (Insurance, if you will)  
 
 But we know what the response of the Conservative and
 Reform has been: NO WAY.  They consider it an insult
 to the integrity of the movement and will never accept
 Orthodox criteria as the only method of conversion.  >>

I not sure that that's exactly correct. It's been said that the question 
isn't Who Is a Jew, but rather Who Is a Rabbi. Conservative rabbis, in 
particular, are sensitive about the notion that their practices might not be 
entirely Jewish. I don't know if their non-activist congregants care as much. 
I'd think that in the Chicago area, for instance, a modern Orthodox 
north-suburban rabbi could do a nice business handling conversions within the 
Conservative community, because his work carries a guarantee. Conservative 
conversions do not, at least not necessarily in Israel. (From years of 
personal observation, I could testify that most members of Conservative 
congregations are, frankly, unaware that there is such a thing as a 
Conservative "movement," although they might hear their rabbis refer to such 
a  movement during sermons given Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, when these 
members are known to go to shul.)

David Finch

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 08:40:45PM -0500, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
: What is a "non-kosher" convert?

A convert who isn't a geir. I'm using the English word "convert" to
intentionally exclude any halachic conotation. Someone who wasn't
mekabeil ol mitzvos.

:        In what sense do you believe Conservative rabbis will accept Reform 
: convervsions-for-the-weddings post facto?

A Reform convert doesn't accept the authority of C's set of rules, whereas
they require something they call "kabbalas ol mitzvos". However, if an
R convert followed C forms, they do NOT require a second conversion.

:                              What about Orthodox convertees who later fail to 
: follow halacha?

What he does after the conversion is irrelevent. The geirus is still kosher.
(A geir katan's geirus is completed upon reaching bar mitzvah, but given that,
the same holds.)

:                 Is keeping kosher the cutoff? Being shomer shabbos? Something 
: else?

The cut off is accepting ol mitzvos, not kiyum hamitzvos. AIUI, that means
accepting that observing halachah as per the traditional definition of the word
is the ideal that one is striving for.

:       What about Orthodox convertees who obtained their conversion under, 
: shall we say, suspect circumstances from suspect rabbis? Would you, as an 
: Orthodox rabbi, refuse to "convert" someone who wishes to marry an Orthodox 
: Jew if the would-be convertee reached his or her conclusion to become a Jew 
: after meeting the real Jew he or she wishes to marry?

I'd be very suspect. I would not go through the forms of conversion unless I
were sure it wasn't someone whose only intent is to make a future in-law happy.
The ceremonial form without kabbalas ol mitzvos isn't geirus, it's just a
source of future problems in yuchsin.

All this isn't as relevent. I'm talking about a situation where rov non-O
American people who think they're Jewish aren't, be it because of conversion
or paternal lineage. I can't make the normal presumptions, the chazakos
won't hold! The Orthodox community doesn't have those kinds of normals.

:                Will you (or even can you) withdraw such a conversion if, 
: after the marriage, it becomes apparent that the convertee is not, or is not 
: really capable of being, religiously sincere, whatever halachic motions he or 
: she continues to go through?

Yes, it's a blatant Rambam. If you find out afterwards that the person went
through the motions for ulterior motives and was no mekabeil ol mitzvos,
the conversion never occurred. Post-facto, limaaseh, this is hard to enforce.
So you need to be really carefull lichatchilah before creating feaux Jews.

Check the second half of the 13th chapter of Hil Issurei Bi'ah. He discusses
the need for kabbalas ol mitzvos, conversion for marriage, etc..

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Jan-00: Shelishi, Vaera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 94a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

R. Sammy Ominsky writes:

> Here in Baltimore, there's a kid in yeshiva day school who was all the
> rage in the local sports section, on the radio, TV, etc. Hottest high
> school b-ball player in the state. Courted by colleges with nice offers.
> 
> He's going to yeshiva instead.

I understood that kid had actually enrolled at Maryland but that the 
school reneged on the promise that he wouldn't have to play on 
Shabbos. Glad to see he had the principles to leave.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

R. Harry Maryles writes:

> With permission, I would like to quote a disturbing
> fact mentioned by Carl Sherer inIn a conversation we
> were having off list:
> 
> - --- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
>  
> > One very telling point about the state of mind of
> > chilonim today is
> > the statement by the Minister of Aliya (Prof. Yuli
> > Tamir) regarding 
> > the latest predominantly non-Jewish Russian and
> > Ethiopian aliya.
> > She said she was in favor of it continuing, inasmuch
> > as it would 
> > have the salutary effect of separating the Jewish
> > religion from
> > the Jewish nation! (R"L).

Just to be omer davar b'shem omro, Shlomo Godick pointed this 
out to me in off list correspondence.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Just wanted to let you all know that we have the preliminary reports 
from the first set of MRI's today and Baruch Hashem, the 
improvement from the last two sets continues. Please keep us in 
mind for the second set on Sunday. Thanks.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Micha seems to be advocating going back to the original talmudic
prescription of dividing one's study equally between mikra, mishnah
(which would include bekiyos in gemara), and sevara (gemara b'iyun)
instead of Rabbenu Tam's prescription of studying only talmud Bavli.
Rich adds that going through the individual volumes of the Bavli is not
to everyone's taste.  Some people, he argues have a need for a more
systematic or topical approach.  Both positions, I feel, have much to
commend them.  While studying according to Rabbenu Tam's prescription
will certainly fulfill mishna and gemara, it not an appealing way of
studying mikra, and you will not spend a third of your time on the mikra
component unless you make a determined effort to understand the
principals and techniques used by chazal in deriving their limudim from
phrases in Tanach.  Second, the daf yomi approach appears to be of value
only for the discipline that it imposes on the participants, and the
good feeling engendered by finishing so many volumes of shas in
expeditious fashion.  I haven't really seen people come away with a good
or lasting knowledge of the material covered.  Nor does one fulfill the
iyun part of the study requirement.  But someone who has gone through
shas in this way may be in a better position than I to evaluate its
yediot benefit.

I would also like to see more variety in the ways the oral torah is
studied.  All the yeshivos that I know go through the first 10-20 folios
of the same volumes of the Bavli.  How unoriginal and how little of shas
is actually presented to students!  Why not study according to sugiya
(topic), drawing from various talmudic sources, rishonim and achronim
with the aim of presenting the major views and halachic conclusions on
the topic in a clear manner?  The topics could be geared to the age
level and interests of the students.  It should not be too difficult for
a few scholars to compose such a syllabus and source books.  Actually,
there exists a topical halachic treatment which is based on Nach.  I
refer to the excellent volumes of Rav Shimon Krasner (Nachlas Shimon) of
Baltimore on Yehoshua, Shoftim, Shmuel I and II, and Melachim I and II.
While the topics are not generally practical halacha and are not aimed
at teaching halacha per se, they do provide the opportunity of combining
mikra, mishna, and gemara in one study session.

Yitzchok Zlochower

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 08:07:28PM -0800, Aaron Berger wrote:
: It doesn't take a lot of highfalutin philosphy, or innovative articulation
: to "preach" that Torah without madda is for everybody. It's the madda part
: that bears rationalization.

I assume you mean this as a sociological observation, not as a statement
of hashkafic Truth.

Was there a community before this one that had access to madda and yet
questioned the correctness of including it?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Jan-00: Shelishi, Vaera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 94a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

> No one wants to be mekarev a Mamzer into
> Klal Israel. 

how does one apply the dictum that one shouldn't uncover a mamzer?
(in sanhedrin?)  it seems clear from this that one shouldn't look too 
deeply into another's past, but certainly those making the proposal must
have another view.

janet

 
> The kind of evidence requested is the grandmother's ketuba;
> description of how the grandmother/grandfather described
> holidays (you would be surprised how easy it is at times to
> discover frauds just from simple questions).  Other evidence
> is requested if necessary etc.

Russian olim can pass these tests?  
I can't imagine that even most American Jews who have been here longer than 
three generations could.  Many couldn't even produce their parents' ketuba,
if there even was one, and some probably had grandmothers who never heard 
of the holidays growing up.  No exaggeration.

Maybe they'll have to start doing preventative conversion, as is done now
with the conversos.

Janet

On Tue, Jan 04, 2000 at 07:16:31PM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
> This is the crux of the argument that is used by the
> Orthodox when trying to persuade the Conservative and
> Reform that All coversions should be done by The
> Orthodox Rabbinate.  The argument is that only in this
> way will ALL denominations consider the convert to be
> a Jew, since the Orthodox cannot, and do not acccept
> Conservative and Reform conversions, but both of those
> denominations accept Orthodox conversions.  So why not
> just have one standard that everyone accepts?
> (Insurance, if you will)  
 
the Neeman commission is trying.  their first converts should come out
within the year or so?

> But we know what the response of the Conservative and
> Reform has been: NO WAY.  They consider it an insult
> to the integrity of the movement and will never accept
> Orthodox criteria as the only method of conversion. 
> And so do they preach to their flock.  Of course, any
> sincere convert would want acceptance by all
> denominations and would accept the "insurance" of an
> Orthodox conversion. 

if they could promise to be (orthodoxly) observant in the first place, 
why would they be converting to reform or conservative?  

janet

In a message dated 1/4/00 11:34:42 PM US Central Standard Time, 
jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu writes:

<< if they could promise to be (orthodoxly) observant in the first place, 
 why would they be converting to reform or conservative?   >>

Their promise would be insincere, but usually no one would say so. Sometimes 
it's still an issue of Who's Who. For instance, if the scion of a prominent, 
Jewishly charitable family -- typically, a Reform or pseudo-Conservative  
family with good yichus and couple of generations of money who live in a 
well-to-do suburb -- wants to marry a shikse, he can pick any form of 
conversion he wants for his future bride. Someone will do it, including an 
Orthodox rabbi, if the scion considers that a prudent way to go. I've never 
heard of someone who actually runs into real static in this situation. With 
the right connections -- particularly with the local Federation -- you can 
get what you want. In the Chicago area, it's been done many dozens of times. 
This I know, believe me.

Outside of the Orthodox community, which today is largely voluntary for 
anyone over age 25, Judaism as a religion is taken seriously by a small 
minority of Jews. That doesn't mean that the majority isn't smart enough to 
give religious authority -- however atavistic it may be, in their private 
unspoken view -- its due. Even rich secular Jews are, for the most part, 
small-business or entrepreneurial Jews. They know from birth how to go along 
and get along. Look at who runs the Federation movement in most big cities. 
Look at where they came from, and how they live their lives. Look at that to 
which they aspire for their children. Any one of them could arrange for an 
Orthodox conversion if they thought they needed it, for a future in-law or 
whatever.

This is emes.

David Finch

I'd like to give some more thought to the questions people have 
raised about this registry (although deep down I feel it is almost 
unavoidable R"L), but I would like to answer a couple of the issue 
raised by R. David Finch:

> Regarding the self-deluded 30 percent:
> 
> What is a "non-kosher" convert? Someone converted by a non-Orthodox rabbi, 
> even if converted by a mainstream (i.e., kosher, shomer shabbos) Conservative 
> rabbi? In what sense do you believe Conservative rabbis will accept Reform 
> convervsions-for-the-weddings post facto? What does "accept" mean here? Do 
> the convertees-for-the-wedding have to live lives that are any more halachic 
> than the typical member of the Conservative rabbi's own largely 
> non-observant, assimiliated congregation? Do you grant special exemptions to 
> sincere Conservative (or even Reform) convertees who live in out-of-the-way 
> communities that have no Orthodox presence, and who turn to the most 
> traditional rabbi available? 

I have a young man (early 20's) coming to me for Shabbos this 
week who grew up in Mississippi. He was not Jewish. As you 
might imagine there are not a whole lot of fruhm Jews in 
Mississippi. He was converted by a Reform Rabbi as a teenager, 
and I first met him when he showed up on ab aliyah help list about 
4-5 years ago asking questions about making aliya. To make a 
very long story short, he went and got himself an Orthodox 
conversion (beyond any question) and made aliya two weeks ago. 
Somewhere on my computer, I have his conversion story (he 
actually wrote it for one of the Jewish newpapers). It is a 
fascinating insight into how someone finds his way to Yiddishkeit. 
If people are interested, I will ask his permission to post it to the 
list, or to send it to people privately. But IMHO when someone is 
sincere, it will come through. (Unfortunately, I know that this is an 
"I know it when I see it" answer, but given that Rabbonim must 
judge the sincerity of converts before they convert them in the first 
place, that may be unavodiable here).

What about Orthodox convertees who obtained their conversion under, 
> shall we say, suspect circumstances from suspect rabbis? Would you, as an 
> Orthodox rabbi, refuse to "convert" someone who wishes to marry an Orthodox 
> Jew if the would-be convertee reached his or her conclusion to become a Jew 
> after meeting the real Jew he or she wishes to marry? How about after meeting 
> the real Jew but before becoming romantically attached to him or her? (How 
> can you tell?) Will you (or even can you) withdraw such a conversion if, 
> after the marriage, it becomes apparent that the convertee is not, or is not 
> really capable of being, religiously sincere, whatever halachic motions he or 
> she continues to go through? 

There are ways to test this as well. It takes chochma and 
sensitivity. A number of years ago, a college student in Boston 
who was romantically involved with a Jewish woman went to the 
Bostonner Rebbe and asked him to convert him so that he could 
marry the woman. The Rebbe met with the couple, and told them 
that he would agree to convert them al tnai that they not see each 
other or have any contact with each other for an entire year, during 
which time he would give both of them (separately) classes in 
Yiddishkeit. If, at the end of the year, the young man still wanted to 
convert, the Rebbe would convert him. The two agreed to it, they 
went through the year as stipulated by the Rebbe, and at the end 
of the year, the Rebbe converted the man.

Fast forward. A number of years later, I am sitting in my cousin's 
house somewhere in Israel, and I mention this story (which is 
legend where I grew up). My cousin, a Kollel man of long standing, 
listens to the story, and says "the man is my neighbor. He learns 
in Kollel here." 

Yes, you can weed out who is sincere and who is not. Maybe you 
and I cannot, but obviously there are other people who can.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

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