Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 258

Wednesday, January 5 2000

• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re[2]: Perogatives of a King
• Re: Rambam on Ahavat Hashem
• Re: Ramban, Acquiring water
• boys will be boys
• Re: Re[2]: Boys will be boys -- some preliminary thoughts
• Shas or SA? - humour alert
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: LeChumrah/LeKulah
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew
• Re: Avodah V4 #256
• Murder is Crazy
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?)
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"

In a message dated 1/5/00 5:01:12 PM US Central Standard Time, 
jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu writes:

<< i thought the whole part of conservatism was that there weren't any
 required beliefs.  
  >>

Nope. In principle, Conservative Judaism is big on lots of required beliefs, 
including kashrut, strict shabbos observance (with a few exceptions, i.e., 
driving to and from shul, "carrying" shabbos-consistent objects outside an 
eruv, etc.), davening daily, Talmud study (where available), use of spoken as 
well as written Hebrew for purposes of advanced learning, etc. Observant 
Conservatives (to the extent they might be said to exist at all, from some 
points of view) understand and try to keep a very large proportion of the 
mitzvos, which, on a practical day-to-day basis, they rarely intepret much 
differently than Orthodox Jews. 

The differences are both smaller and larger than they might at first seem. 
The big one: Egalitarianism. There are thousands (maybe many thousands) of 
younger Conservative Jews with serious religious aspirations who have only 
one major problem with Orthodoxy, and that's the role of women. They want to 
be in an environment where religious roles are available without 
discrimination between men and women -- including mixed seating, women 
rabbis, women learning Gemorrah, etc., etc. The second big difference is 
money. Conservative Jews have more of it, per capita, than Orthodox Jews in 
America. Maybe a lot more. They understand and, for the the most part, thrive 
within the American derech eretz. This strongly affects their religious 
outlook.

The third big difference is the way Conservatives conduct their minyans. I'm 
not referrring to the order or content of prayer, which is almost identical 
to the Orthodox service, word for word, except for certain language related 
to gender and to the restoration of Temple sacrifices. (Actually, the 
Conservatives throw in a few more modern additions, in Hebrew, which makes 
their services somewhat longer.) I'm referring to noise. Conservatives rarely 
talk in shul, except when they pray out loud. They really consider it 
disrespectful at least, and sinful at most, to do so. 

Don't say life doesn't have its ironies.

David Finch

Agreed.  Confrontation is not the same as coercion.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Perogatives of a King 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> Pperhaps the public cannot confront a king, but can'a Novi (eg Eliyahu, or 
> Nosson & Gad wrt David)?

I think the quote at the bottom of the original post was mine and 
not RET's. 

Yes, a Navi can obviously confront the king, but unless he is 
carrying orders from Hashem, he cannot force the king to undo 
something the king has done. Note that Eliyahu did not force 
Achav to return the vineyard to Nevos' family.

-- Carl

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Clark, Eli <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
To: avodah list <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 8:44 PM
Subject: Rambam on Ahavat Hashem


> Mrs. Gila Atwood writes:
>
> From: Clark, Eli <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
>
> >> What enhanced Rambam's sense of emunah I do not know.  One possible
> >> answer can be found in his startling statement in Hil. Teshuvah
> >> regarding attaining ahavat Hashem.
>
> >Please enlighten a humble housewife before Shabbos who does not wish to
> >disturb (now) sleeping husband.
>
> Thank you for asking; it gives me the opportunity to correct a glaring
> error of mine.  Rambam writes in Hil. Yesodei ha-Torah -- NOT Hil.
> Teshuvah -- that it is a mitzvah to love Hashem.  He asks: how does one
> achieve this?  Then, in a startlingly moving, almost romantic passage,
> he describes a person who contemplates creation is overawed by what he
> or she sees.
>
> Kol tuv,
>
> Eli Clark
>

Marvellous! It seems that the Rambam, the ba'al haTanya and RSR Hirsch are
very close on this one.

Why?  The Tanya discusses in various places  that hisbonenus on the
greatness of Hashem will arouse the love and awe (rechimu vedechilu) which
is ordinarily hidden in our hearts.   Now, look at R Hirsch's sidur.  "Shma
Israel... " -  understand!  Know in your mind... Hashem's achdus.

Contemplating achdus and greatness amount to pretty much the same thing
because this achdus includes all we perceive and beyond.

Actually,  R. Hirsch focuses on our relating the achdus with the unity of
the purpose of our lives.  Awareness of Hashem's achdus inspires us with a
purpose in life-  simply to do ratzon Hashem.
"ve'ahavta"-  you will love-  as a *consequence*.  The verb "ahavta" is not
an imperative, it is a prediction of the flow of our psyche.

Once all our intellectual faculties are "in line"  in terms of awareness of
however much we can possibly perceive of Hashem,  then our emotions will
follow suit.

Thanks and kol tuv to you also.

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: Ramban, Acquiring water


> Chaiim Brown writes
> >>>>>>>>
> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:28:51 EST
> From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
> Subject: Question on Ramban
>
> Acc. to Ramban, Moshe thought the shepards of Midyan unjustly took the
> water
> that the daughters of Miryam had drawn into the troughs for their
> animals.
> Question: how were the daughters koneh the water?  The troughs and pails
> I
> imagine were hefker in a makom hefker.
> >>>>>>>>
>
> The water WAS Hefker...but you can Acquire Hefker thru
> your utensils. (Placing an object in a utensil of yours
> is an ACT of ACQUISITION)

Another poster pointed out that the utensils could also be for communal use.
Could not the actual act of drawing the water be koneh in itself?

It's not so pashut that the water would be hefker, or at least not the
"right to draw water" -   We're talking about an arid/semi arid zone where
water rights were probably fiercely contested.  You see the trouble Avraham
and Yitzhak had with the Plishtim over possession of wells.  There was
probably an agreement in any particular region just who was entitled to help
himself.  A stranger probably couldn't just walk in and take-  there would
be a perceived threat to the quality and quantity of the water. This is
possibly  one reason why Eliezer allowed Rivka to draw water for him when he
was obviously stronger and more capable.  She was a native and from an
important family-  he was a stranger. (This is quite a way further north,
where water was more plentiful). In the case of Yisro's daughters, according
to the midrash - (Shmot Rabba)  Yisro was in cherem because he had rejected
avoda zara.  These people held that they had a right to block access to the
water and only allow access when everyone else had taken.  GA      (enjoying
the sound of rain falling and trickling down to the Jerusalem groundwater
reserves...)

>
> Maybe if Eisav channeled his agressive behavior onto a football field he
would
> have been ok - though never a Yaakov Avinu?

He could have been more than OK, he could have been like Dovid Hamelech.
I learned that both these figures in our history had pretty much the same
potential which included strong drives needing expression.  Chabad teaches
that davka Esav's soul had a higher source than Yaakov's-  and fell lower.
If the boy can harness that inner fire and free himself from his klipos, he
can reach a place of great kedusha. Of course, that will take more than
football.  (ice hockey might even be necessary- joke)

Can anyone think of appropriate ways to channel this nature-  aside from
slinging stones at wolves and taunting giants, not readily available.
Dovid Hamelech used music and song for example-  this can be very powerful
stuff.

We have to be careful about that Esav/Yaakov comparison.  Of course, given
that, every mammy would rather compare her boys to Yaakov.  If David
hamelech is presented as an alternative, she won't feel she has a second
class child because he needs a swimming chug for his extra energy.

Even this, however, isn't accurate.  As we see from the title-  boys will be
boys.  There is still an aspect of Yaakov that needs a bit of exercise, and
we shouldn't deprive him. For a "Dovid" that need would be noticeably more
intense. And of course, there's a wide range between.

Mrs. GA

I find it difficult to drive and listen to detailed shiurim but there is
plenty of "light" material available as well.

If one's intellect can get engrossed in listening to a tape while driving  -
"nishmartem me'od b'nafshosechem!"

>
> BUT, let's fact it, shas sometimes "rambles".  The Tur is organized into
more
> tightly fit TOPICAL simonim.  And SOME brains learn better by focusing on
a
> topic and THEN going into background mode for sources.

However, one can also fall into a tendency to compartmentalize knowledge.  A
certain amount of digression keeps association to other topics alive and
allows one to retain an idea of the bigger picture-  probably why a posek in
one subject would need bekius in others.
>
Despite the merits of this holistic approach I make a plea.  This reminded
me of the perpetual problem of split topics on Avodah.  If I sort according
to subject I can pretty much collect all the "boys will be boys",
"altalenas" etc.  However, all the Re's and Re[2]s  etc get bunched together
in the Rs,  orphaned from all their relatives. If I want to know I've
finished a topic I would need to visit the Rs and retrieve them.  So let's
please delete the Re's,  perform hashavas aveda and bring the list more in
line with the Tur  (and have mercy on the organization of my inbox!)
This post had a Re: Re[4]   -  going a little too far, don't you agree?
Mrs. GA

Tht case, with names, made the Yated!

BTW, I am mystified by this whole thread. If Rav Elyashiv, a posek of
universally recognized stature, to put it with restraint, thinks a
registry is necessary, then who here exactly is competent to second guess
him?

On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Carl M. Sherer wrote:

> This was tried about 15 years ago in another community a bit west of
> Chicago. It fell apart when (a) it became public through an expose in
> the local Jewish newspaper and (b) the Rabbanut in Israel found out
> about it and refused to recognize ANY conversions from that city until
> it was resolved and the arrangement disbanded. BTW it was "official."
> There was more than one O rabbi involved. 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

It's a famous Teshuvos Halachos \ketanos. The PMG cites it as well. Ein
chadash tachas ha'shemesh.


On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Rayman, Mark wrote:

> I remember hearing somewhere, that the Rav (RYBS) and/or his Brother (the
> chemist) had considered or permitted (I don't recall which) other substances
> for melicha, including sugar and potassium chloride.  Anyone know more about
> this?
> 
> Moshe
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message -----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 1:36 AM
Subject: Avodah V4 #257


> Date: Wed,  5 Jan 2000 22:58 +0200
> From: BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il
> Subject: Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
>
> The suggestion I made to the Yaakov Neeman of the Neeman
Commission on
> GIYUR (and which he belatedly accepted but unfortunately
was already after
> the commission already concocted their "joint conversion
institute"
> scheme) was as follows:
>
> License or regulate the title of Rav (rabbi). Anyone
wanting to be called
> rabbi in Israel must (after getting ordination) pass a
licensing exam
> in Yoreh Deah; to carry out weddings must have Yadin Yadin
(the same
> way a Rav Shechuna has ); you wnat to run conversion
courts ? No problem :-)
> You have to pass the Dayyanut exams at Machon Harry
Fishel. And in order
> to show that you don't "discriminate" the above rule is
applied to the
> Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Father O'Malley from St.
Patrick's Church,
> and a Hindu priest who believes in 2234 gods and who
shleps his holy cow
> into the bechina room.
[del]

> Josh

One major concern is that from this point on, someone (with
some political power and say so, for instance) can decide
that while a medical degree is life-threatening, converting
isn't and therefore there should be a "sliding scale" type
exam that takes into consideration the background of the
person and the type of "smichah" he wants.  There is very
little that can be done at this point after the Chief
Rabbinate no longer controls the issue and instead of being
a question of religion, it's a question of knowledge.

Secondly, the laws _today_ state that in order to receive
Smichah from the Rabbinate and/or a job -- you have to
follow the Mitzvot and act in a manner appropriate for a
Rabbi.  The above suggestion removes this part of the law
which today prevents Conservative and Reform rabbis from
receiving rabbinical jobs -- and enables the removal of
rabbis who may have turned to C or R.


BTW,  the only ones who have Yadin Yadin are Dayanim and
City rabbis who pass an equivalency test (oral or written
depends on experience, reputation and the examining Chief
Rabbi).  You don't need Yadin Yadin to be a Rav Shechuna.
The levels today are (each additional level requires another
series of exams and on passing you get an additional
certificate of Smicha from the Chief Rabbinate):

Smicha (Yoreh Yoreh)
Rav Shechunah (neighborhood)
Rav Chaver Lishca (local rabbinical council)  [p.s. I'm not
sure but there might be one more level]
Rav Eizori/Rav Moshav etc.
Rav Ir    (City Rabbi - has to be ratified by Chief
Rabbinical Council of Israel)      ||       Dayan (Yadin
Yadin)

Not every Rav Ir is also the Rosh Avot Batei HaDin of the
city.  Only in cities that have local Batei Din.  The Rav Ir
of the largest cities also sit on the Moetzet Rabbanut
HaRashit (Chief Rabbinical Council).


Shoshana L. Boublil

I looked at the Sh"A Y"D 268:12, didn't take long, the lashon is identical to
the Rambam's. With the same maskanah, as I read it: Conversion for marriage
isn't inherently pasul. However, since we have reason to believe that he
was not mekabeil ol mitzvos, "chosheshin lo ad sheyisbareier tzidkaso".
(The Ah"Sh is even more close in lashon to the Rambam, talking about "yatza
*mik'lal* geirim.)

There is a discussion of whether chozeir lisuro can be used as a birur that
he never really accepted ol mitzvos to begin with. Tosfos want to assur his
wine limafrei'a. See the Ta"z and Be'eir Heiteiv (sham).

But either way, as long as we have doubt that the geir didn't also have the
right motivation in addition the wrong one, we harbor doubt about his status.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Jan-00: Revi'i, Vaera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 94b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 11

R' Shim'on ben Gamliel's complaint is that by reducing the number who recieve
death penalty, beis din will increase the number of murderers. It's not
a necessary conclusion that the tachlis of dinei nefashos is to orginize
society, it could be a side effect.

Perhaps that's even the basis machlokes between R' Akiva/R' Tarfon and RSbG.
To him it's a key factor in considering dinei nefashos, to them it isn't.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Jan-00: Revi'i, Vaera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 94b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 11

In a message dated 1/5/00 5:59:39 PM US Central Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< 
 BTW, I am mystified by this whole thread. If Rav Elyashiv, a posek of
 universally recognized stature, to put it with restraint, thinks a
 registry is necessary, then who here exactly is competent to second guess
 him? >>

Rabbi Bechhofer, I understand your sentiments from a religious standpoint. A 
registry, however, carries political and social implications as well, 
particularly in Israel. It also implicates a whole bunch of emotional 
Who-Is-a-Jew issues that have repeatedly -- and perhaps unnecessarily -- 
created divisions between and among Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews 
in the U.S. 

Even if it serves a halachic purpose, is such a list really wise?

David Finch 

Rich Wolpoe <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
: YU's derech to character devlopment was focused mostly upon the intellectual 
: approach of learning, analyizing, thinking, understanding, etc.  It tended to 
: avoid the emotional, "romantic" elements.

That might be do to the Rav's Brisk-ness, no?

: It's hard to articulate this, but most diveri Mussar I've heard are about
: making one feel "bad" or "guilty" about some shortcoming. R. Lessin seemed
: more about opening one up to the presence of shomayim, of connecting to very
: lofty spirtiual heights...

Navardok's derech, IIUC, focuses on "vinafshi ke'afar lakol tihyeh". Slabodka
taught more about "bishvili nivra ha'olam", being bitzelem E-lokim, etc..

Perhaps RYGB will accept this invitation to elaborate or correct this
undereducated impression.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Jan-00: Revi'i, Vaera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 94b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 11

Just as there is realpolitik there is realhalacha. If the halachic reality
requires an unpleasant resolution, it's tough luck for us. It becomes, by
defintion, wise, regardless of potential reprecussions, real as they too may
be.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <DFinchPC@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"


> Rabbi Bechhofer, I understand your sentiments from a religious standpoint.
A
> registry, however, carries political and social implications as well,
> particularly in Israel. It also implicates a whole bunch of emotional
> Who-Is-a-Jew issues that have repeatedly -- and perhaps unnecessarily --
> created divisions between and among Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform
Jews
> in the U.S.
>
> Even if it serves a halachic purpose, is such a list really wise?
>
> David Finch
>

On Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 06:38:46PM -0500, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> Nope. In principle, Conservative Judaism is big on lots of required beliefs, 
> including kashrut, strict shabbos observance (with a few exceptions, i.e., 
> driving to and from shul, "carrying" shabbos-consistent objects outside an 
> eruv, etc.), davening daily, Talmud study (where available), use of spoken as 
> well as written Hebrew for purposes of advanced learning, etc. 

i meant belief as opposed to practice.
i think there is a lot more diversity in belief within conservatism,
such as wrt whether torah was divinely inspired or divinely written.

janet

In a message dated 1/5/00 7:28:13 PM US Central Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< Just as there is realpolitik there is realhalacha. If the halachic reality
 requires an unpleasant resolution, it's tough luck for us. It becomes, by
 defintion, wise, regardless of potential reprecussions, real as they too may
 be.
  >>

Is the registry halachically required, or just a real good idea? If it's 
required, why haven't we had one before (excluding, of course, the version 
compiled by the SS)? Why now, and not during earlier eras of dispersion and 
dilution of Judaic identity, of which there have been many? Is it because the 
Gedolim of old just weren't smart enough to think of it? Did they think of it 
but decided to discard it because of reasons that do not apply today? By 
saying that realhalacha trumps realpolitik (or at least subsumes it), are you 
saying that there's no role for street seichel in deciding whether, or how, 
to devise a rule like this? Do you equate Judaic realpolitik with something 
that's just "unpleasant"? What if it's a lot worse, i.e., as political 
reality destructive of Kol Yisreal? Do you view the registry rule as daraisa, 
or rabbinic? Does it make any difference, in view of the political 
implications? Given the enormous potential (and therefore likelihood) of 
fraud or other deception in the preparation of this registry, do you think 
that the registry might permanently engrave into the concept of Jewish 
identity the suspicion of falsehood? Why can't we consider such distasteful 
but nonetheless realistic factors in considering this issue? 

David Finch

In a message dated 1/5/00 7:40:59 PM US Central Standard Time, 
jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu writes:

<< i think there is a lot more diversity in belief within conservatism,
 such as wrt whether torah was divinely inspired or divinely written.
  >>

Agreed.

David Finch

----- Original Message -----
From: <DFinchPC@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"


> Is the registry halachically required, or just a real good idea? If it's

If R' Elyashiv feels it may be required, then it is required.

> required, why haven't we had one before (excluding, of course, the version
> compiled by the SS)? Why now, and not during earlier eras of dispersion
and

There were such works before. Many kehillos had pinkasim of communal
records.

> dilution of Judaic identity, of which there have been many? Is it because
the
> Gedolim of old just weren't smart enough to think of it? Did they think of
it

In any event, they had far fewere problems to contend with in terms of
lineage.

> but decided to discard it because of reasons that do not apply today? By
> saying that realhalacha trumps realpolitik (or at least subsumes it), are
you
> saying that there's no role for street seichel in deciding whether, or
how,
> to devise a rule like this? Do you equate Judaic realpolitik with
something
> that's just "unpleasant"? What if it's a lot worse, i.e., as political
> reality destructive of Kol Yisreal? Do you view the registry rule as
daraisa,
> or rabbinic? Does it make any difference, in view of the political
> implications? Given the enormous potential (and therefore likelihood) of

It makes no difference.

> fraud or other deception in the preparation of this registry, do you think
> that the registry might permanently engrave into the concept of Jewish
> identity the suspicion of falsehood? Why can't we consider such
distasteful

Like anything else subject to fraud (say, anything associated with Chicago)
safeguards need to be devised. Just because something is subject to fraud
(say, anything associated with Chicago) it soes not mean it should not exist
if necessary or advantageous (say, anything associated with Chicago), does
it?

> but nonetheless realistic factors in considering this issue?
>

They are problesms that R' Elyashiv probably feels are real, but trumped by
necessity. Tough on us.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

*********************


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