Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 263

Friday, January 7 2000

• Re: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in p
• Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos
• Re: Basar neelim min haeyin/non-Jewish babysitter
• Re[2]: Basar neelim min haeyin/non-Jewish babysitter
• Basar neelim min haeyin/non-Jewish babysitter
• Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos
• Re: Jewish Registry
• Re: Basar neelim min haeyin/non-Jewish babysitter
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew" - Realpolitik
• Re[2]: Registry of "Who is a Jew" - Realpolitik
• Re[2]: Conservatives (was: Registry of Who is a Jew)
• Re: Basar neelim min haeyin/non-Jewish babysitter
• Re: Basar neelim min haeyin/non-Jewish babysitter
• Re: Basar neelim min haeyin/non-Jewish babysitter
• Re: Jewish Registry
• Re: Avodah V4 #258
• Re: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos
• Re: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• Re: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos
• Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew" - Realpolitik

I would also add that things have changed over the last several decades and 
Americans in general, and New Yorkers in particular are less suprised by modes 
of dress that deviate from the "norm".  This is perhaps one of the "positive" 
fallouts of the 1960's, if anything goes so does wearin a tallis in public.  IOW
the public has become somewhat de-sensitized.

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in publi


On Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 05:42:49AM -0800, aviva fee wrote:
: Is it appropriate for a man to wear his tallis gadol in public on Shabbos 
: (in chutz la?aretz)?? It seems like many men wear their tallis gadal to and 
: from shul on shabbos in plain view.

If you don't use the eiruv (assuming there even is one), and you keep your 
talis at home, how else is it going to get to shul? Particularly in the warmer 
months, when wearing a coat on top of it would be overly warm.

-mi

In a message dated 1/7/00 8:58:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
aviva613@hotmail.com writes:

> Is it appropriate for a man to wear his tallis gadol in public on Shabbos 
>  (in chutz la’aretz)?? It seems like many men wear their tallis gadal to 
and 
>  from shul on shabbos in plain view.
>  
I think it is obvious from O"C 13 (301).

GUt Shabbos Vkol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 1/7/00 8:53:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
aviva613@hotmail.com writes:

> So if we can not leave kosher meat unsupervised in the presence of a 
>  non-Jewish person, how do we justify the widespread practice of parents 
>  going to work the while leaving their children with a non-Jewish sitter?
>  
The din od Basar Shnisaleim Min Hoayin, is not "in the presence of a 
non-Jewish person" we can also be Chosheish for Achborim.

Gut Shabbos, V'kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Touche!

Let me re-phrase the question:  If we are chosheish for meat being contaminated 
when left unattended, kal vochomer we should be chosheish for kids being 
contaminated when left unattended!

What a great question! <self-deprecating grin>

It's a valid point. All I can tell you is that there are  CERTAIN gentiles that 
will be as vigilant about Jewish things as any Jew.

EG, my parents best friends had a housekeeper who started eating kosher meat in 
her own home - and when her husband took sick she blamed it on the pork he still
continued to eat! 

So while leaving kids to be tended by a Gentile might be questionable, perhaps 
it would be onerous to make a blanket gezeiro against Gentile nannies because at
least SOME of them are capable of following a "kosher" agenda more-or-less, and 
in this sense I am not referring to food only.

I would agree any Gentile nanny who undermines the "Yiddishkeit" in the home 
should be considered "possul"

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Basar neelim min haeyin/non-Jewish babysitter 


On Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 09:23:17AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote: 
: Isn't there a "gezeorah" re: bossor ne'lam min ho'ayin?
: Is there any corresponding gezeiro against gentile Nannies?

Someone <poke, poke> recently said that this was a machshava list, not a 
halachah one. In that vein, I think the question is appropriate.

Why would we think that our children require less supervision for their 
"kashrus" than our meat would?

-mi

MA Fee wrote:

>>Can one compare basar ne'elim min haeyin to leaving one's children with a 
non-Jewish babysitter?

We all know the halacha of basar ne'elim min haeyin (leaving unsealed kosher 
meat in the presence of a non-Jewish person).

So if we can not leave kosher meat unsupervised in the presence of a 
non-Jewish person, how do we justify the widespread practice of parents 
going to work the while leaving their children with a non-Jewish sitter?>>


I certainly appreciate your sentiments because I see it everyday and it pains 
me.

However, we don't pasken like the gezeira of basar hane'elam min ha'ayin.  Meat 
is mutar if you can recognize it.  I think it is Yoreh Deah 118 or 119.  So, 
taking your comparison overly literally, as long as you can recognize your 
children's personalities and hashkofohs when you come home it is mutar.  If the 
babysitter has too much influence over the child then it would not be mutar.

What I see is that children start going to playgroup at age 3 and their 
personalities are molded by their morahs and friends rather than their 
babysitters or parents.

I think the bigger problem is the lessening of the parent-child bond that 
results.  From what I understand (and I know there are people on this list more 
qualified to comment on this) the early childhood years are crucial for 
character development and interpersonal relationship skill-building.  When 
parents are absent from the child's life during this time they play no or very 
little part in their child's development.

A tallis gadol is a beged.  I wear my jacket and my shirt in the street.  I wear
my tzitzis out on the street.  I even wear my weekday hat, which is meyuchad 
letefillah, in the street on my way to shul.  A tallis is a beged with tzitzis 
that is meyuchad letefillah.  So how is it any different from my jacket, 
tzitzis, and hat?

Does it look funny to gentiles?  So what.  I don't see any Rabbonim telling 
people to cut of their peyos or tuck in their tzitzis so they don't look funny 
to gentiles.

RYGB wrote <<< For some individuals here on Avodah, who can have no
comparable knowledge by any stretch of the imagination, of the scope and
extent of the problems, to critique R' Elyashiv, boggles my mind. >>>

I understood those individuals differently than you did. The way I read
them, they were not trying to criticize or argue with Rav Elyashiv. Rather,
they wanted to understand his reasoning. That is not the same as
disagreeing. Or maybe it *is* disagreeing, but is a very *respectful*
disagreement.

It is safe to say that there are various pros and cons to this question. We
are simply wondering what Rav Elyashiv's logic is, and how he responds to
the "con"s. Far from criticizing him, this can be considered a strong
support for his gadlus: If his p'sak is considered Torah, then Torah hee,
ul'lamdah ani tzarich!

Akiva Miller

gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:



> What I see is that children start going to playgroup at age 3 and their 
> personalities are molded by their morahs and friends rather than their 
> babysitters or parents.



I beg to differ. My 3- (almost 4-) year old has a personality that
developed all on its' own, long before playgroup. Her morah has quite a
job.



> I think the bigger problem is the lessening of the parent-child bond that 
> results.


Do you mean results from going to playgroup, or having a non-Jewish
babysitter (do people really do that?)? 'Cuz I think that at three (or 4)
a child is ready to step away from her parents to do things. My daughter
went with some friends (the friends' 10-year old sister was with them) to
their house without us this past Shabbat for lunch. As she was walking out
the door, she turned and told us that she was a little scared, because
she'd never gone anywhere without Ima or Abba before. But she went, and
had a great time, too.



>  From what I understand (and I know there are people on this list more 
> qualified to comment on this) the early childhood years are crucial for 
> character development and interpersonal relationship skill-building.  When 
> parents are absent from the child's life during this time they play no or very 
> little part in their child's development.


But that would be the same effect whether the child is with a Jewish
babysitter or non, and is irrelevant to the point at hand, true though it
may be.




But this has gotten way off-topic, and will soon be suited more for Dr.
Laura than Avodah...

We now return you to your regular program, already in progress...



---sam

Just my two cents - 
L'maaseh, whether or not an "official" yichus book is created is 
academic. Given the situation, how many of us on this list would 
be willing to marry off our children without doing some sort of 
investigation into the yichus of the prospective shidduch? If a kehillah
chooses to create it's own what possible harm can be done? It would 
just be a shortcut for research purposes.
Let me put it this way - when my oldest was born (7 yrs ago) my father 
recommended that I research a "yichus brief" for my children,
because he sees it may be de facto required by the time they are 
ready to marry. I would not be surprised if he was doing that sort of investigation when the first of my siblings began shidduchim (11yrs ago).

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

Is this new?  Hasn't there been some form of yichus inquiry for many 
generations? The new "question" is: how far to take it?  Do we standardize and 
formalize this?

Rich wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew" - Realpolitik 


Just my two cents - 
L'maaseh, whether or not an "official" yichus book is created is 
academic. Given the situation, how many of us on this list would 
be willing to marry off our children without doing some sort of 
investigation into the yichus of the prospective shidduch? 

<snip>

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

Anf fwiw, I was aqcuainted with a very traditional Conservative Rabbi who 
usually stuck closely to halachah,, but I was taken aback when I found out that 
he married a Kohen to a Giyores...

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Conservatives (was: Registry of Who is a Jew) 
<snip>

The problem with Conservatism isn't so much its theoretical position on Torah 
l'Moshe m'Sinai. It's the fact no one acts as if they really care.  

David Finch

In a message dated 1/7/00 10:31:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, sambo@charm.net 
writes:

> But this has gotten way off-topic, and will soon be suited more for Dr.
>  Laura than Avodah...
>  
>  
Chinuch is a Halachik issue (and an Avoda issue too :-)), interesting though 
most Poskim hold that the Mitzvah of Chinuch is on the father (who "Yeitzei 
Odom L'fo'loi Adei Orev), and as long that "NItzrach Limoi" he is not 
obligated to eat in Sukka, Veod Veod.

Gut Shabbos, V'kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Yzkd@aol.com wrote:


> > But this has gotten way off-topic, and will soon be suited more for Dr.
> >  Laura than Avodah...
> >  
> >  
> Chinuch is a Halachik issue (and an Avoda issue too :-)),



Of course. I just saw the discussion headed toward areas unrelated to the
original topic, which I was following with some interest. Do people really
leave their kids with non-Jewish babysitters?

The question of leaving kids with a babysitter at all is a completely
different topic, on which I happen to have strong opinions, but I don't
think it's necessarily appropriate to this forum. If I'm wrong, I'll
happily join the fray.

Consider the case of a young kollel family. She's an accountant. They just
had their first baby. She's got to return to work or the bills don't get
paid. So six weeks later the kid's in the hands of a capable *Jewish*
day-care provider. I have a problem with that, but it doesn't pertain to
the discussion at hand.


 interesting though 
> most Poskim hold that the Mitzvah of Chinuch is on the father (who "Yeitzei 
> Odom L'fo'loi Adei Orev), and as long that "NItzrach Limoi" he is not 
> obligated to eat in Sukka, Veod Veod.


And most fathers are content to let the schools do it for them. 

This is leading me into an entirely different area, which I'll leave for
others to broach if they happen to, at which time I'll happily join in.


---sam

In a message dated 1/7/00 11:30:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, sambo@charm.net 
writes:

>  interesting though 
>  > most Poskim hold that the Mitzvah of Chinuch is on the father (who "
> Yeitzei 
>  > Odom L'fo'loi Adei Orev), and as long that "NItzrach Limoi" he is not 
>  > obligated to eat in Sukka, Veod Veod.
>  
>  
>  And most fathers are content to let the schools do it for them. 
>  
My point was that according to Halacha a child growing up even in his own 
house under the watchful eyes of the mother, could technicly get away with 
eating Davar Ossur etc. OTOH she would not be Muttor to feed it to him (which 
is better then having a non-Jew that as has happened in the past "treat" the 
child to a Davar Ossur").

Gut Shabbos V'kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

If you are correct, that is wonderful.

It just didn't sound like that to me.

If, indeed, you are correct, my apologies to all concerned.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: Jewish Registry


> RYGB wrote <<< For some individuals here on Avodah, who can have no
> comparable knowledge by any stretch of the imagination, of the scope and
> extent of the problems, to critique R' Elyashiv, boggles my mind. >>>
>
> I understood those individuals differently than you did. The way I read
> them, they were not trying to criticize or argue with Rav Elyashiv.
Rather,
> they wanted to understand his reasoning. That is not the same as
> disagreeing. Or maybe it *is* disagreeing, but is a very *respectful*
> disagreement.
>
> It is safe to say that there are various pros and cons to this question.
We
> are simply wondering what Rav Elyashiv's logic is, and how he responds to
> the "con"s. Far from criticizing him, this can be considered a strong
> support for his gadlus: If his p'sak is considered Torah, then Torah hee,
> ul'lamdah ani tzarich!
>
> Akiva Miller
>
>
>

>Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:52:37 +0200
>From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: boys will be boys 
>
>>
>He (esuv)could have been more than OK, he could have been like Dovid 
hamelech

Did he   not want to jump out of his mother stomach to go to church.Did
he not try to kill yakkov and tr y to close rachels womb,so this is not
so pshat how he can channel himself to be like david 

________________________________________________________________
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 05:42:49AM -0800, aviva fee
> wrote:
> : Is it appropriate for a man to wear his tallis
> gadol in public on Shabbos 
> : (in chutz la’aretz)?? It seems like many men wear
> their tallis gadal to and 
> : from shul on shabbos in plain view.
> 
> If you don't use the eiruv (assuming there even is
> one), and you keep your
> talis at home, how else is it going to get to shul?
> Particularly in the warmer
> months, when wearing a coat on top of it would be
> overly warm.

By knowing where you are going to daven before Shabbos
and leaving you Talis there on Friday. Or by using a
shul talis.  

I do not use the Chicago Eruv and will not wear a
Talis in the street for Hotzo'ah reasons.  Being a
Talmid of R. Aaron, I follow his (and I assume all
Brisker's) logic on the issue.  Since they hold that a
lack of T'cheles is MeAkev the Mitzvah of Tzitzis,
then wearing those fringes sown to the beged sans
T'cheles serve no purpose and it amounts to Hotzo'oh.
Since one is not required to wear a beged of Dalid
Kanfos, one simply doesn't.  Otherwise there would be
a D'Oraiso Violation of Shabbos. It seems to me that
even if one does not subscribe to the view that
T'cheles is MeAkev (which I believe is almost the
universal view), it would be prudent to be choshesh
for this view.

HM
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--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 02:42:37PM +0200, Carl and
> Adina Sherer wrote:
> : I'm not sure who coined the term Orthodox, but
> somehow I doubt it 
> : was the Aguda or the OU. I suspect that much as
> the term Charedi 
> : started out as a derogatory term and was adopted
> by the people 
> : who were so named, so too with the word Orthodox.
> 
> So writes RSRH in "19 Letters". O was coined by the
> early Reformers, with
> connotations of East European, antiquated, overly
> ritualized, and everything
> else that German culture wouldn't like about the
> Orthodox Church.

I really don't like the word Orthodox either but for
puposes of identication one uses a word that is easily
understood to mean a particular group of people.  The
word simply means: "strict adherence to doctrine",
which is what we "Orthodox" do.  I used to like to
describe myself as "observant".  Unfortunately that is
not enough.  One can say one is observant of the Torah
and Mitzvos and be a member of the Conservative
movement in good standing. One can be a heretic
without being a Shegetz.  I know a few people like
this.  But with the heretical theology of Conservative
Judaism one needs to separate themselves from any
identification by using a word that has no ambivalence
to it's meaning.  So we use the word Orthodox. 
Eventhough that word was thrust upon us by the Reform,
it serves it's purpose. 

I really don't think it is all that bad a word.  If
anything it has taken on a new, very positive meaning
in the view of non Jews.  I detect a degree of
reverence on the part of my non-jewish clients when I
tell them I am an Orthodox Jew. Most Goyim (at least
the ones I have come in contact with) respect our
adherence to a high set of values and principles and
admire our devotion to family values.  They are even
envious when I speak to them about our moral
lifestyles and the serenity and grandeur of a shabbos
meal, all the while thinking they could never do that,
but would like to have it somehow.

So, eventhough I tend to agree that we are all Jews,
some more obsevant than others, and eventhough I would
like to do away with labels, the unfrotunate reality
is that we can't and we shouldn't.  We should instead
be proud of our "label" and wear it well.

HM
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On Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 11:24:19AM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
:                                            Being a
: Talmid of R. Aaron, I follow his (and I assume all
: Brisker's) logic on the issue.  Since they hold that a
: lack of T'cheles is MeAkev the Mitzvah of Tzitzis,
: then wearing those fringes sown to the beged sans
: T'cheles serve no purpose and it amounts to Hotzo'oh.

I'm a bit surprised. There's a stam mishnah "techeiles eino me'akaves es
halavan" (and visa versa, if that's ever lima'aseh). There is much Torah
on the Rambam who says that even so, they are considered only one mitzvah
of the 613; yet on the same mishnah he uses the fact that shel rosh isn't
me'akev the shel yad (and visa versa) to prove they are different mitzvos.
After all, can you be yotzei part of any one chiyuv? Lulav without esrog?

I wanted to suggest that tzitzis gets this property from teshuvah. We know
from the case of get al minas she'ani tzadik that hirhurei teshuvah, even
without vidui, has a kiyum hamitzvah. Tzitzis are "vilo sasuru acharei
livavchem vi'acharei eineichem asher atem zonim achareihem" -- an os to
prevent following after ta'avos and chemdos that one followed in the past. An
os to aid in teshuvah. Therefore is shares a quality necessary to teshuvah --
it's not all or nothing.

But back to the point, a stam mishnah and the Rambam among others, take
it as a given that techeiles is NOT me'akeves. I never heard otherwise
until this email.

In addition, if it were me'akeves, how would it be mutar to wear four
cornered garments bizman hazeh? (Except for those who feel that techeiles
has been identified bivadai.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Jan-00: Shishi, Vaera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 95b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

--- gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:
> 
> I don't
> see any Rabbonim telling 
> people to cut of their peyos or tuck in their
> tzitzis so they don't look funny 
> to gentiles.


I believe that Briskers (certainly Chicago Briskers)
do not wear their Tzitzis out, because they feel it is
Yuharah. I know that R. Aaron Soloveichik doesn't.

HM 

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--- Allen Baruch <Abaruch@SINAI-BALT.COM> wrote:

> Just my two cents - 
> L'maaseh, whether or not an "official" yichus book
> is created is 
> academic. Given the situation, how many of us on
> this list would 
> be willing to marry off our children without doing
> some sort of 
> investigation into the yichus of the prospective
> shidduch? If a kehillah
> chooses to create it's own what possible harm can be
> done? It would 
> just be a shortcut for research purposes.

I don't think anyone on this list would not support
researching yichus vis-a-vis Mamzerus or Psulim to
marrying a Kohein, whenever there are doubts or
questions surrounding a potential Shiddach. I believe
this is routinely done in cases of Baale Teshuva,
especially in cases where a divorce of a non-religious
parent or grandparent is involved. Nor should it be a
problem if an individual Kehilla such as the Yekke
Kehilla wants to do it for themselves, for whatever
reason.  

But when you want to do it on a massive scale for all
of Klal Israel, it comes attached with all the
problems mentioned before on this topic and probably a
lot more. It becomes political and devisive and IMHO
needs a lot of careful thought and examination by all
segments of Orthodox Judasim. I believe it requires
consensus of all or most Poskim across the spectrum of
Orthodoxy, with input from from as many people
involved with this issue as possible. If there was
such a consensus, then I would be greatly saddened
about the formal and documentary partitioning of our
people but would of course have accept it.

HM
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