Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 268

Sunday, January 9 2000

• Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Conservatives
• Re: Is techeles m'akev a Talis Katan?
• Re: New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
• Re: tzitzis
• Re: Tzitzit on Shabbos
• Nixon/McGovern
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Avodah V4 #265
• Re: Nixon/McGovern
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• ANOTHER TACK: A Hat Trick
• OFF TOPIC - BY's MRI
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Conservatives
• Re: Avodah V4 #266
• Registry of who is a Jew
• Re: Yichus Data Base

Someone recently rightly pointed out that our C and R brethren would be
shocked and dismayed by the amount of talking that goes on in many (most?)
O shuls.

The difference, as I see it, is that we attend shul so much more often than
our non-O counterparts. It's hard to maintain respect even while familiar.
Second, our yiddishkeit is far less shul-centric. We aren't as likely to
see shull as "where G-d is". OTOH, if the Jewish Center is the place where
religion is compartmentalized into its once-a-week dosage, you approach that
event with more kavod.

But to put it another way... the Rambam understands "Ratza HKBH lizakos es
Yisrael, lifichach hirba lahem Torah umitzvos" to mean that we do so many
mitzvos in order to increase the chance that any single fulfillment creates
that spark of kavannah in which he earns olam haba. But now we are arguing
that the regular fulfilment of hilchos tefillah creates a nisayon that
those who don't go regularly don't have to deal with.

What did I miss here?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Jan-00: Cohen, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 96b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 12

David Finch correctly points out the huge gap between what is taught in JTS
and what the C hamon am believes.

But mima nefshach: The intellentsia are fed a false hashkafah, but perhaps
follow a good deal of halachah. The masses may not embrace that hashkafah,
but don't follow the halachah either. Whether you use "C" to mean the ideal
they aspire to or the reality of the community, both are objectionable, both
need to be addressed. And, as C goes into its third generation, I think
that even R' Moshe would consider their religious leadership to be as much
tinokos shenishbi'u as their masses.

Dr. Backon has actually checked his curriculum against a (admittedly small)
sample of C "Rabbis". When he assumes that JTSA graduates couldn't pass a
typical semichah test, he isn't just guessing. OTOH, I'd hate to set up his
system because of the percentage of C illuyim, C "Rabbis" who used to be O
(an exception from my tinok shenishba rule as well), etc... that would.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Jan-00: Cohen, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 96b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 12

--- Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
> R' Harry Maryles wrote <<< I do not use the Chicago
> Eruv and will not
> wear a Talis in the street for Hotzo'ah reasons. 
> Being a Talmid of R.
> Aaron, I follow his (and I assume all Brisker's)
> logic on the issue. 
> Since they hold that a lack of T'cheles is MeAkev
> the Mitzvah of Tzitzis,
> then wearing those fringes sown to the beged sans
> T'cheles serve no
> purpose and it amounts to Hotzo'oh. Since one is not
> required to wear a
> beged of Dalid Kanfos, one simply doesn't. 
> Otherwise there would be a
> D'Oraiso Violation of Shabbos. It seems to me that
> even if one does not
> subscribe to the view that T'cheles is MeAkev (which
> I believe is almost
> the universal view), it would be prudent to be
> choshesh for this view.
> >>>
> 
> Would I be correct in presuming that those who
> follow the logic above
> also avoid wearing a four-cornered tallis katan even
> during the week? For
> lack of t'cheles, that shita would say it's assur,
> no?

I apologize to the list for the lack of clarity on
this issue,.  I hope to do some research on it and get
back to you with more details.  

As regards the above question.  I believe that R.
Aaron is only choshesh L'Gabi Shabbos. L'Gabi chol he
is Noheg K'chol HaOlam: i.e. he wears a beged of Daled
Kanfos for his Talis Katon with Tzitzis of Lavan.

Perhaps one can speculate that R. Aaron wears a Beged
that does not have a Chiuv Deoraiso, i.e. cotton
instead of Tzemer, thus avoiding the problem that way.

HM
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On Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 12:59:49AM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> 	What is the purpose of this new school?

i get the sense that it will be similar in outlook to the hebrew
institute of riverdale.  it would be interesting if the traditional
conservatives joined somehow, though i've not heard that they would 
take any part.

janet

--- sweinr1 <sweinr1@uic.edu> wrote:
> In response to Reb HM's question re tzitzis on
> shabbos, it is actually the 
> shita of the baal hamaor that holds that techeiles
> is meakev and the simple 
> reading of the baal hamaor is that he didn't wear
> tzitzis at all because of 
> this. 

Thanks for the information.  You saved me some work.
This past Shabbos someone mentioned to me that the
Netziv brings down this Baal HaMeor his  "Meishiv
Davar".

HM
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--- Steve Katz <katzco@sprintmail.com> wrote:

> 
> That is correct. RAS does not wear talis katan on
> shabbos... he holds you need tzitzis for tevilah.

Steve! I didn't know that R. Aaron wears his Tzitzis
when he goes to the mikva. :)

HM
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>Some of our members seem to have selective amnesia as to who
>George McGovern is and how he feels about Israel. Since leaving
>the US Senate, one of McGovern's principal activities has been his
>position as the Founding President of the Middle East Policy
>Council - the Arabs' equivalent of AIPAC. 

I agree as to McGovern's current position but plead innocent on the 
amnesia charge ("I have a good memory, but it is short...")
In discussing the Nixon/McGovern race vis a vis the Jews, I had in 
mind only those events/political opinions/etc which were current at the
time. In 1972 it was not at all evident that McGovern's views would lead 
him to ally himself politically with Arabs in the US. For that matter, 
the US Arab community was inactive politically then.

Definition of "time":  that which keeps events from happening all at once.

__________________________________________________________________
Claude Schochet				claude@math.wayne.edu	
					www.math.wayne.edu/~claude
Mathematics Department			313-577-3177	office phone		
Wayne State University		    	313-577-7596	department fax
Detroit, MI 48202
 

On 9 Jan 00, at 14:13, Micha Berger wrote:

> What did I miss here?

The fact that in many shuls there is little or no talking despite the 
fact that most of the people who attend are people who attend shul 
every day. 

B"H I daven regularly in such shuls.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

--- Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> wrote:

> Lubavitch do not have an
> atara,  even of the
> type that most talisos come with (i.e. decorative
> type cloth,  not
> silver) because the Ari z"l was not makpid to have
> the same tzizis always
> in front.  I am not sure of how the transition from
> "not makpid" to
> "makpid not" came about.

Far be it from me to speak for Lubavitch but I believe
that the reason they correctly have no Atoros
whatsoever is because of the the idea of not having an
"up" or "down" side to the Beged.  i. e. you should be
able to wear the beged with either end up.  I am
reletively certain that that's the correct psak in the
SA, but, LeHefech, for some reason, Ataros of the
cloth kind are universally worn by all denominations
except Lubavitch.  

Interestingly,  whenever I am the "Shatz" at Bnei
Ruven (the main  Chabad Shul here) and ask for a Talis
they give me one of the Shul's which of course, has no
Atarah.  So I figure... I can put it on without regard
to which end is up.  Apparently, there IS an "end up".
I once put it on the "wrong way" and someone chided me
for putting it on upside down.  How was I supposed to
know? He told me to look on the inside of the tallis
and find the lining which is used for purposes of
putting the talis on the head.  So, they do have an
"up" end after all.

HM
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On 9 Jan 00, at 16:07, Claude Schochet wrote:

> I agree as to McGovern's current position but plead innocent on the 
> amnesia charge ("I have a good memory, but it is short...")
> In discussing the Nixon/McGovern race vis a vis the Jews, I had in 
> mind only those events/political opinions/etc which were current at the
> time. In 1972 it was not at all evident that McGovern's views would lead 
> him to ally himself politically with Arabs in the US. 

Some of us saw it even then....

The radical left cannot be aligned with Israel by definition, because 
Israel discriminates (or is supposed to discriminate) in favor of 
Jews. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 11:12:11PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: The fact that in many shuls there is little or no talking despite the 
: fact that most of the people who attend are people who attend shul 
: every day. 

I didn't say that it was an insurmountable nisayon, just that the nisayon
exists. Which does seem inconsistant with the Rambam's assertion that regular
performance of a mitzvah is "lizakos es Yisrael".

The number of people who are nichshol (which, I think you'd agree is at least
close to rov of O) argues in favor of the idea that daily prayer of a fixed
texts tends to degerate into mindless rote.

This is 180deg from the stated purpose, and yet what many of us see lima'aseh.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Jan-00: Cohen, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 96b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 12

This article, which I managed to miss in Friday's Jerusalem Post, 
was bounced to me by a friend in New York. It ought to provide 
some more food for thought when thinking about Charedi - Chiloni 
relations in Israel.

-- Carl

ANOTHER TACK: A Hat Trick
By Sarah Honig

(January 6) Headgear is fraught with symbolism, and even
an uncovered pate has meaning. 

Hats are more than fashion statements. They can identify
our sex, occupation, rank, favorite sports team, political
allegiance, nationality, or religious affiliation. 

It wasn't for nothing that Shas suggested last week that
wearing a kippa should be obligatory on memorial days for
fallen soldiers and Holocaust martyrs. The 10 MKs who
naughtily sponsored the provocative bill knew they hadn't a
prayer of actually passing it. They were out to make a
statement, because that's what the kippa is. 

And because that's what all manner of headdress are, I so
respect Basmat Tzabari. I have never met her and I know
nothing about the 22-year-old except that she is an Eilat
hotel waitress who vehemently refused to don Santa Claus's
fur-trimmed hat as her bosses demanded she do on
Christmas Eve. Her attitude cost Basmat her job, but she
has no regrets. She knows it's all about symbols. 

In her age-group and in our milieu, Basmat is rare. Her
convictions probably even earned her the stinging derision
of her peers. In all likelihood they don't see what the fuss is
about. 

Dozens of my daughter's peers showed up in school on
December 24 sporting the very sort of hat which lost
Basmat her job. It was the trendy thing to do. One boy
came attired in Santa's entire red suit and handed out
candies. 

The school administration had no problem with any of this. 

Quite the contrary. My daughter's 10th-grade history
teacher marched into class that day with festive Yuletide
salutations, recommended that the kids attend midnight
mass in Jerusalem, and proceeded to educate his charges
about the life and times of Jesus. 

He betrayed no hint of the New Historians' fashionable
skepticism or politically correct iconoclasm, and made no
mention of what was done to the Jews in the name of Jesus
over the centuries. 

But before Hanukka the same teacher announced to his
captive audience that the story of the Maccabees is false,
and that anyhow they were no freedom fighters but extreme
haredim who attacked representatives of enlightenment and
progress. 

My daughter protested against his attempts to force our
definitions on the past and noted that there was no secular
democracy, tolerance, or humanist pluralism in those days.
She was promptly thrown out of class. Her incurable
political incorrectness frequently gets her into trouble. It
must be in her genes. 

In a recent civics class she objected to another teacher's
analogy between Israeli treatment of Arabs and the way the
Germans treated Jews between 1933 and 1939. My
15-year-old argued that we don't behave like Nazis, while
the Jews in Germany didn't blow up buses, hurl fire bombs,
stone civilian cars, stab passersby or plant explosives in
marketplaces. 

The Jews, she stressed, were German patriots who fought
for Germany, regarded themselves as Germans of the
Mosaic persuasion, and were more loyal to Germany than
many of their Aryan neighbors. Again she was ejected from
class. 

She got into an equally nasty scrape in civics during a
discussion on the merits of democracy versus the theocracy
her teacher insisted the "dossim" seek to impose. 

"Dossim" was the term put on the blackboard as one of
the ideological alternatives. My daughter objected to the
offensive d-word and to the notion that Israel is really
threatened by theocracy. 

That earned her the reputation of an extremist and a
dossim-lover. 

Nonetheless, her fellow students were surprised that she
disapproved of their cheery "Heppy Krreesmees" greetings.

Her classmates - in an average Israeli secular secondary
school in an average Israeli community - saw nothing
unsavory in exchanging Krreesmees cards, notes and gushy
wishes. 

My daughter's reminders about the persecution of Jews fell
on deaf ears. 

Imbued with the spirit of the season, her best friend
countered that the Inquisition happened long ago and the
pope has already apologized for it. 

It's sadly symptomatic that pupils in the Jewish state's
schools have little awareness that the Inquisition wasn't an
isolated deplorable episode. 

They lack historical perspective and exposure to the annals
of their own people. Their journey through Jewish history is
sporadic, in spurts and jerks which defy logic. From the
Renaissance they skip backwards to the Second Temple
period and from there directly to the 19th century. The
chronological loose ends are never tied, and the gaps are
not filled. Jewish history makes uninspiring and
disconnected guest appearances on the universal stage. 

What will keep these youngsters in the Jewish state, or
what it will look like when they take over, is not something I
delight to dwell on. 

Somehow, though, I suspect that Education Minister Yossi
Sarid is delighted, and that for his Shas antagonists (if they
dwell at all on any of this), clawing for clout takes
precedence over the rising generation's cultural and national
identity. 

Yet Israeli children's lack of pride in their heritage, or
empathy for the Jews' history and lot, is no less alarming
than their cousins' assimilation in America and Europe. 

Therefore - just as younger Sabras stand poised to trim
Hanukka bushes with de rigueur tinsel and flickering lights -
it was so heart-warming to learn about Basmat. 

She probably didn't know that the soft red cap she was
required to wear had nothing to do with the original
fourth-century St. Nicholas, and that it was designed a little
over a century ago by American political cartoonist Thomas
Nast (the one who popularized the Democratic donkey and
originated the Republican elephant) for the fat, jolly,
white-bearded character he envisaged. 

The hat has no intrinsic religious significance. But Basmat
intuitively identified it as the symbol it is. 

"I am Jewish and it's not my hat," she explained. 

Some may denounce her as narrow-minded. But I wish
there were many more like her. 


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

For those who were wondering....

BY's MRI was postponed today because of a breakdown in the MRI 
machine. We are on standby for rescheduling at the next 
opening....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 1/9/00 2:13:30 PM US Central Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< Someone recently rightly pointed out that our C and R brethren would be
 shocked and dismayed by the amount of talking that goes on in many (most?)
 O shuls.
 
 The difference, as I see it, is that we attend shul so much more often than
 our non-O counterparts. It's hard to maintain respect even while familiar.
 Second, our yiddishkeit is far less shul-centric. We aren't as likely to
 see shull as "where G-d is". OTOH, if the Jewish Center is the place where
 religion is compartmentalized into its once-a-week dosage, you approach that
 event with more kavod.
 
 But to put it another way... the Rambam understands "Ratza HKBH lizakos es
 Yisrael, lifichach hirba lahem Torah umitzvos" to mean that we do so many
 mitzvos in order to increase the chance that any single fulfillment creates
 that spark of kavannah in which he earns olam haba. But now we are arguing
 that the regular fulfilment of hilchos tefillah creates a nisayon that
 those who don't go regularly don't have to deal with.
 
 What did I miss here? >>

There are Conservative Jews who attend shul at least weekly, and a small 
handful (enough twice a day for a minyan plus a little more, sometimes a lot 
more, at many Conservative shuls) attend daily. Or even twice daily. 
(Frequently there's the "Morning Crew," and the "Evening Crew," but there's 
some overlap.) These stalwart few have never appeared, to me at least, any 
more talkative and disrespectful during services than the rank-and-file who 
show up once a month or so. Or once a year, for that matter.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the hilchos-tefillah-leads-to-nisayon 
excuse for talking in shul translates to: "I'm a real mitzvah doer, and 
everybody has to relax sometimes, so forgive me if I relax out loud while I'm 
doing one of my mitzvos, because I really don't have any spare time." Or: 
"I'm a Real Jew who gets his kavannah anywhere he wants, and I don't need a 
shul, which for me, unlike lesser Jews, is not the center of my religious 
universe." Or: "Hey, I'm a regular here, people know me, we kibbitz around, 
I've done the shemonai esrai in 4:51:03, so what are you worried about?" 

I'm not worried about it, but it is irritating when others interfere with my 
own feeble efforts to use public prayer to connect with HaShem. Maybe I 
should just loosen up. Could it be that the type of respectful behavior that 
gives me space to do that might be an imitation of the goyishe WASP church 
politesse that the non-Orthodox ape as part of their assimilation into the 
dreaded derech eretz? Could it be that I just don't appreciate that the loud 
talkers are just burned out from all the mitvot they've been doing? 

What did I miss here?

David Finch

In a message dated 1/9/00 2:22:09 PM US Central Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< And, as C goes into its third generation, I think
 that even R' Moshe would consider their religious leadership to be as much
 tinokos shenishbi'u as their masses.
 
 Dr. Backon has actually checked his curriculum against a (admittedly small)
 sample of C "Rabbis". When he assumes that JTSA graduates couldn't pass a
 typical semichah test, he isn't just guessing. OTOH, I'd hate to set up his
 system because of the percentage of C illuyim, C "Rabbis" who used to be O
 (an exception from my tinok shenishba rule as well), etc... that would.
  >>

All of that is probably true, or at least becoming true. I'm told that JTS 
now divides its curriculum into two tracks. First, there's the simple semicha 
track, which emphasizes less traditional book learning and more of the modern 
"realities" such as pastoral work, counseling, administration, etc. JTS 
offers another track for those who want to immerse themselves in the texts, 
serious critical analysis, etc. It's expected that the typical JTS graduate 
will follow the first track. 

(Then there's the University of Judaism in Bel Air, California, a short 
stone's throw from Madonna's rooftop heliport and Jack Nicholson's infamous 
lair for aspiring actresses. I spent a few days attending classes at UJ, 
which is now the second stateside school that grants semicah to Conservative 
rabbis. I didn't stay long enough to figure out exactly what UJ's curriculum 
offers. Their view from the crest of the Santa Monica Mountains, however, is 
terrific. Equally terrific is the view at the Starbucks down the road, where 
many of Mr. Nicholson's houseguests stop by for a cup of coffee.)

On the other hand, I've meet a number of recent JTS graduates who are 
extremely sharp academically, and who are familiar with more Orthodox 
esoterica than you'd think. I don't know where they picked it up -- maybe 
from other Jews. (I know one soon-to-be-graduate from UJ teaches a Daf Yomi 
at a small Orthodox shul near where he lives in L.A. I don't know whether 
he's told anyone there about where he goes after Shacharis.) They believe in 
halacha, and have learned to see the world through halacha, whatever 
theoretical nonsense might be "taught" to them by their Conservative masters. 

It might be useful to focus on the core of yiddishkeit around which many 
Conservative rabbis and laymen alike have tried to shape their lives, instead 
of emphasizing all the ways they fall short. That way one might be able to 
show them the light, instead of making them feel like self-deluded impostors.

David Finch

> I would find it equally amusing/distressing if a bunch of laypersons,
> non-economists, would armchair quarterback Greenspan with no proof or
> evidence.

eyn haniden doyme leray'ye. Greenspan happens to be running the world's
largest economy very successfully for the longest period in modern
history. Imagine he considers it prudent to raise interest rates by 5%
either as a preventive or a remedial measure. The armchair quarterbacks
would be coming at him hard and fast with little amusement or distress
to anyone.

Instituting a list of who is a Jew is no less seismic a 'solution'.

Dovid Herskovic

> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 12:25:21 +0000
> From: David Herskovic <crucible@talk21.com>
> Subject: Re:Registry of who is a Jew

<<The only comparable list run by chareidim though minute in scale to a
registry of Jews is that of Tay Sachs. That unfortunately is corrupt and
a complete shambles>>

	Zo minayin lach?

Gershon

I learned of the following incident from a person involved with the young
lady involved shortly after it's occurrence. The person from whom I heard it
is someone in whose credibility I have every reason to trust.

In the the late seventies a ba'alas teshuva was engaged to be married.
A friend suggested that she investigate her family's history regarding
mamzairus. Until this point in time there had never been any reason to
suspect a problem. Her parents marriage was a first for both of them, and
the common belief was that her grandparents were also only married once
each.

Upon investigation the young lady learned that one of her grandmothers had
been married briefly and divorced without a Get prior to her marriage to her
this young lady's grandfather. Unfortunately, further investigation revealed
that the first chupah v'kiddushin were done properly and the grandmother was
an 'aishes ish' when she married her second husband.

The question was brought to MSH"Y, Reb Moshe TZK"L, ZY"A, to decide if young
lady was 'mutar l'kahal'.

Reb Moshe was disturbed that the young lady was advised to investigate her
background. Although this was out of character for him, he was actually very
upset and rather strongly voiced his opinion concerning the
well intentioned advice.

The opinion of the leading rabbinical authority in Anglo - Jewish history
concerning the proposed database should not be hard to extrapolate from this
incident.

Furthermore, we are quickly approaching the time that genetic testing will
be able to pinpoint those in the 'established' frum community in whose
lineage there was a great, great, great etc. grandmother who could not
out-run the Cossacks or Chmelnicki-ite, etc., accounting for blond haired,
blue eyed Semites.  Let us not overlook the fact that most of our ancestors
lived for hundreds of years in societies where the 'first rights' of the
local lord was taken for granted, v'hamaivin yavin.
Once again, I find myself forced to urge caution when operating a
frumometer. You never know if the next person to use it will point it
in your direction or where he may want to stick it.
Were this a good idea to do in the USA, Reb Moshe, Reb Yaakov,
or Rav Yosef Dov zichronom yogain alainu ad biyas goel, bimhaira b'yomainu,
would have thought of it and urged it.

As for tracking yichus in order to establish the 'worth' or 'breeding' of a
particular person or family, take from one who has a family tree with roots
back to the mishpachas HaGr"a and further, genetics mean very little. Ask
anyone who knows me. :-)

Simcha Klagsbrun

*********************


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