Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 272

Monday, January 10 2000

• Re[2]: Is techeles m'akev a Talis Katan?
• Re: Conservatives
• techeiles
• Re: Silver Atarot
• Re: Avodah V4 #271
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
• Sadigora
• Re: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?)
• re: Atarah
• Re[4]: value of shas
• Need list of Kosher restaurants in Silicon Valley
• Re: Need list of Kosher restaurants in Silicon Valley
• Re: ATTN legal eagles
• Novorodik
• Modern Orthodox
• Re: Re[2]: Fwd (micha@aishdas.org): Re: Wearing a tallis gadol i
• Re: Basar neelim min haeyin/non-Jewish babysitter
• Re: Sadigora

This is what I was told that Briskers do is where a non-wool begged.

The problem they have to deal with is that virtually NOBODY wore a non-wool 
tallis Gadol as far back as anyone can remember (yes let's dicount those 
American silk Taleism)

IOW, how can Brisk ignore the entire "velt" minhag on this?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Is techeles m'akev a Talis Katan? 
<snip>

Perhaps one can speculate that R. Aaron wears a Beged 
that does not have a Chiuv Deoraiso, i.e. cotton 
instead of Tzemer, thus avoiding the problem that way.

HM

---- Original Message -----
From: Clark, Eli <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
To: avodah list <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 12:27 PM
Subject: Conservatives


> After some initial fuzziness, some clear principles have emerged from
> this thread on the Conservative movement.
>
> 1. Diversity.  The Conservatives historically have been the least
> clearly defined and therefore most diverse of the three major "branches"
> of the US Orthodox community.  (As the old joke had it: Reform is lazy,
> Conservative is hazy and Orthodox is crazy.)  They tried in the mid-80's
> to formulate a statement of principles called Emunot ve-De'ot.  But they

Actually "Emet v'Emunah". 55 pages of what takes us Yigdal. Contrary,
however, to what REC writes, some minimal level of Apikorsus is necessary to
be a "good" Conservative Jew. This is the legacy of the "Historical" school.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Reb Akinva Miller asks, "Would I be correct in presuming that those who
follow the logic above also avoid wearing a four-cornered tallis katan
even during the week? For lack of t'cheles, that shita would say it's
assur, no?"
No, like I said in my previous post, the mekor of the chumra is the
Maharam Miruttenberg.  The acharonim and rishonim actually explain the
maharam's not wearing tzitzis brshus harabbim on shabbos in several ways.
One pshat
is that he was afraid they would tear, another is that he was choshesh for
the shita of the baal hamaor, and a few others which I don't remember
offhand but bli neder I can fill you in when I get home.  By the Way, one
who reads the baal hamaor inside will see that it seems that he didn't
wear tzitzis at all, because he held that techeiles is meakeiv.  Some
acharonim tried to understand that he didn't really mean it, but the
Ramban certainly understood that the baal hamaor did not wear tzitzis.
Shaul Weinreb

On Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 10:42:08AM -0400, nachman levine wrote:
: R. Moshe DovBer Rivkin, "Ashkavta DiRebi", ff. 17 discusses the Chabad
: custom of not wearing an Atarah on a Talis Gadol; he notes that Chasidei
: Chabad ARE Makpid to have their Tzitzis in front of them (evidently based
: on the SheLaH, cited in Magen Avraham 8)...

A fancy atarah isn't needed as most begadim for taliyos have that decorative
white-on-white band where an atarah goes, and many have reinforcement for
the part that takes the most strain if put over the head. So, as Nachman
points out, one need not have an atarah in order to be makpid.

:                                                writes that the custom in
: the lands of Yishmael NOT to have ANY Atarah is a Minhag Yafeh [so a
: white-on-white Talit with an Atarah would be anomalous if not oxymoronic
: . . . ]...

My choice of white-on-white isn't a Sepharadi thing. I thought that black
stripes and techeiles would be a tarta disasrei. The purpose of the stripes
is as aveilus for the mitzvah of techeiles.

I toyed with the idea of blue stripes on the beged. There is a machlokes
rishonim whether lichatchilah the "lavan" strings should be white or the color
of the beged. We avoid the question by using white begadim; Teimanim don't,
and match the color of the beged to the string. I'm wearing a blue-dyed
string on each corner because I feel there's a large enough chance that
it is techeiles to warrant doing so. But, if this dye isn't techeiles but
the beged is blue-and-white, wouldn't blue-and-white strings still be a
fulfillment of the lechatchilah, at least lefi those rishonim?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 10-Jan-00: Levi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 97a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Re: gadol hametzuveh v'oseh: the gemara is in Kiddushin 31a, but a cursory
look at the text does not give the "yetzer hara" as the reason. Tosefos
there says that he is greater because he is constantly concerned as to
whether he is doing the mitavah properly, whereas one who is not mezuveh
always has the option not to perform the deed.
-emanuel feldman

On Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 05:42:33PM -0500, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
: There are Conservative Jews who attend shul at least weekly, and a small 
: handful (enough twice a day for a minyan plus a little more, sometimes a lot 
: more, at many Conservative shuls) attend daily. Or even twice daily. 
....

True, and there are many in the O community who don't attend shul on weekdays
very often. But the tendencies are defined well enough to cause cultural
differences.

: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the hilchos-tefillah-leads-to-nisayon 
: excuse for talking in shul translates to: "I'm a real mitzvah doer, and 
: everybody has to relax sometimes, so forgive me if I relax out loud while I'm 
: doing one of my mitzvos, because I really don't have any spare time."

I don't think so, because you're assuming the claim and the fault are in
the same person. When I talk during davening, it's usually because I had
some thought just hit me that I just /had/ to share with someone. OTOH, I'm
not particularly good at attending shul during the week, as I'm usually leaving
for work before the k'vasikin minyan. I posted the notion, and it doesn't
apply to me.

Also, it's not "I can relax out loud", it's not even a conscious decision. It's
that people don't stay on guard perpetually. With acclamation, shul can not
be an "on guard" place. Compare a first visit to the kotel with that of
someone who goes daily. Or the way you brush your teeth your first week after
the dentist scares you with a bad report with the way you do so a month later.
People come to terms with things.

I'm suggesting a more mild version of the notion that familiarity breeds
contempt. Maybe not contempt, but it certainly takes the edge off the
respect.

: I'm not worried about it, but it is irritating when others interfere with my 
: own feeble efforts to use public prayer to connect with HaShem.

There are plenty of shuls that are quiet. Are you sure there's none near
you?

:                        Could it be that the type of respectful behavior that 
: gives me space to do that might be an imitation of the goyishe WASP church 
: politesse that the non-Orthodox ape as part of their assimilation into the 
: dreaded derech eretz?

"Dreaded"? Don't tell the Yekkes! <grin>

Perhaps it is assimilationist. The shabbos morning derashah was picked up from
the Reform, who got it from the church sermon. I'm sure there are other good
ideas to be learnt from that venue as well. However, I'm inclined to believe
that C and R would be quiet in synagogue either way, it's common sense respect
that you needn't have a role model to come up with.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 10-Jan-00: Levi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 97a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 1/10/00 3:04:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 I'm suggesting a more mild version of the notion that familiarity breeds
 contempt. Maybe not contempt, but it certainly takes the edge off the
 respect. >>
I've noted the same wrt weddings in frum communities - the greater the 
frequency of attendance, the more talking during the chuppah( I suspect that 
this can be as disconcerting to the chatan and kallah-who are told this is a 
particular eit ratzon- as talking in shul is to those who are trying to have 
a dialogue w/HKBH).  As I've mentioned before, we all have what to work on - 
before casting stones at others- we should look carefully at our own 
rationalizations(individually and as socio-religious subgroups).


Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich


Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Still cleaning up back issues: one of the israeli contingent asked about the
sadigora chasidim and mentioned that he thought they were a small group. 

I am not sure how they're doing these days, though I was under the vague
impression that they were actually a pretty successful group in the present
era- somewhere in the tel aviv area -however many chasidic groups have gone
through a cyclic growth and contraction and perthaps they're on a down
swing.  As for who they are, they are the direct descendents of the single
most powerful and influential of all the chasidic dynasties - the Rhyziner.
The original Rhyziner Rebbe (R. Yisroel Friedman) was direct descendent (I
think the great grandson) of the great maggid and successor to the baal shem
tov, R. Dov ber of Mezritch . An extremely colorful and controversial leader
- he kept a court jester, traveled everywhere with ornate coach and footmen,
and generally, so it seemed to his many maskilish detractors, flaunted a
wealthy and high living, imperious style - a derech of malchus. Though
unquestionably extremely intelligent and able there is good reason to
believe he was illiterate, probably a learning disability.  Though he was
not the first to say, that "if i want a Ph.D I'll hire one" (think that was
hermann kahn) it would have been apt as he had a stable of first class
talmidei chachomim to which he referred any halochic shailos (he used to
refer to the divrei chaim as the bais din hagodole).. He was active during
the first half of th 19th century and was unquestionably the dominant leader
of his day with many tens of thousands - maybe more -  of chasidim, and with
many of the other chasidic rebbes clearly kofuf to him as well. he was wont
to claim, with some justice, that all the world's chasidim were his.   At
one point he was forced to decamp suddenly from Rhyzin in the middle of the
night - he was under a kind of house-town arrest for implication in a murder
(I said he was colorful)- and fled across the Russian border to the
Austo-Hungarian controlled town of Sadigora, recreating his court there.  He
was niftar somewhere around 1850 and five of his sons in turn became
indpendent rebbes in different towns (most prominent besides Sadigora itself
being Husiten and T'chortikov - but the scandal surrounding one of these in
turn precipitating a bitter feud with the original Sanzer rebbe who didn't
care for any of the sons though he got along famously with the father- which
strongly impacted the remaining couse of the divrei chaim's life.  details
of course have generally been expunged from the usual sanitized biographies
produced by chasidic biographers and historians. and go try to figure out
what happened from artscoll).  In any event, the oldest son, R. Avrohom,
became the first Sadigora rebbe after his father the Rhyziner passed away.
The sadigora in israel today are the direct descendents of that R. Avrohom,
some cousins who made aliyah somewhere right around WWII, and restarted a
sadigora beis medrash in tel aviv.  I believe they've actually grown since
then, and have built a yeshiva (Rhyziner yeshiva) and, i thought, prospered.
Incidentally, the branch of the family which may be the most dynamic of all
right now is in jerusalem - the Biyaner chasidim who've got a dynamic and
popular young american born rebbe (his father is a psychology professor at
YU) .  The first Boyaner rebbe was a grandson of the Rhyziner who had moved
to Boyan from sadigora).  

Mechy Frankel, n"a				H:  (301) 593-3949
michael.frankel@dtra.mil				W: (703) 325-1277

To bring this part of the conversation to a close (at least for me),  I
believe RYGB may have (finally?,:-) hit on something accurate in this thread
(which one may of course operationally identify by its' membership in the
the class of things I agree with) which is that musar, in the sense of a
musar yeshiva anyway, has fallen on hard times in these latter days.   I
originally objected to RYGB's lumping of such as R. Dessler with YU and
Voloshin, seeing it as a homogenization which obscures rather than
illuminates (might as well ask what's the difference between an arabic
speaking immigrant whose ancestors have lived behind some mountain in yemen
for the last thousand years and a yekke, they're both jews and put on
tifilin. true on one level, but it does tend to gloss over important
differences as well) .  I believe that is still correct and R. dessler, of
the old generation raised in the tradition of real a mussar chanich, would
have objected strenuously to RYGB's lumping him with a YU-sans-secular and a
voloshin.   However, things have indeed changed.  I am not sure there really
are any musar yeshivas left even in the historically continuous musar
yeshivos.  In part this assumption stems from the fact that such
knowledgeable - indeed self declared  musarites as RYGB himself  and others
who responded to this thread- seemed to think that having a mashgiach or
having a musar shmooze somewhere in the interstices of the real learning
business of the yeshiva - say a couple of voluntary minutes before
mincha-maariv somehow makes you a musar yeshiva, and this is not so.
Bi'qitzur nimrotz a real musar yeshiva has different goals than an ordinary
yeshiva, a different methodology of learning musar, and a different
proportion of time devoted to the enterprise.  The goal - unlike a
traditional litvish yeshiva whose goal was to foster a talmid chochom - was
nothing less than the production of a mussar mentsch, a person whose midos
in all matters were exemplary and whose education thus required formal
educational activities centered on midos.  The methodology was quite
different from the simple, or prototypical musar shmooze of  today, as it
also involved specific techniques, e.g. long sessions with the constant
repetition of certain phrases with great emotion (or at least with the
attempt to summon such up) frequently in a darkened room, much attention
paid to external appearances, etc.  and it was not voluntary like your
typical "enrichment" activity these days but a mandatory part of the
curriculum. Finally these activities were engaged in for significant gobs of
time during the week (amounts of course varying from place to individual
place) but nothing like the here and there minutes a week (or even, very
occasionally for "serious" musar devotees, a daily half hour shiur, again
usually voluntary) granted to musar these days. Attempting to gain a current
snapshot of a historic musar yeshiva,  I discussed the matter over shabbos
with two telzers, who indeed described just this kind of "low-intensity"
musar education.  So in that sense perhaps RYGBs homogenization is not all
that wrong for the current generation. 

There is much more to be said re RYGBs original suggestion that YU's
intellectual antecedents are to be found in the voloshin hashkofoh - and its
debt to voloshin or telz (for organizational matters) as well as RYGB's en
passant remark disengaging YU from any debt to the Lida yeshiva (While I
basically agree with that assessment, the matter is not quite so simple.
Indeed the only great eastern european godole attracted to Lida by R.
reines, R. Shlomo Polochek (the maitcheser ilui), went pretty much directly
from Lida to YU) but that would take too much time. Perhaps another day if
any interest persists.  One final note however about musar and voloshin.
While, in some previous posts,  I referred to voloshin as the avi avos of
the anti-musar institution, a recent (very good) book on R. Yisroel salanter
by Etkes has tried to emphasize that musar itself (as a movement) finds its
intellectual origins in voloshin, via R. Zundel of Salant (R. Yisroel's
rebbe) who was a talmid of R. Chaim in the earliest days of voloshin. Etkes
makes much of the connection between R. Chaim's philosophical approach to
"yiroh" and R. Yisroel's musar program.  He comes close (never quite getting
there) to suggesting that the later movement was somehow already implicit in
R. Chaim's - and thus in the Gra's - teachings.  This is however quite
strained and easily the worst, or most unconvincing, part of his work.  

Mechy Frankel, n"a				H:  (301) 593-3949
michael.frankel@dtra.mil				W: (703) 325-1277

Thanks to all who responded to my request for information about not wearing
a silver atarah. The general consensus seems to be that a silver atarah
gives an undue amount of kavod to

(a) the tallis, which is not a mitzvah the way the tzitzis are,
and/or
(b) the head-portion of the tallis, which is not required to have tzitzis
the way the body-part is.

In defense of those who do have such an atarah, I offer the following:

(1) A silver atarah helps prevent the tallis from falling off one's head
during the Shemoneh Esray, and whatever other parts of the davening that it
is worn up.

(2) Just as one might wear a nicer shirt on Shabbos than on weekdays, an
atarah can make his Shabbos tallis nicer than his weekday tallis.

(3) In a recent discussion on similar matters, at least one poster wrote
that he keeps his esrog in a plain cardboard box, because the box is not
part of the mitzva, so there is no logic in beautfying it. But for those who
do go out of their way to have a nice esrog box, a silver atarah can
similarly beautify the tallis.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Akiva Miller

Correction: re: Kodshim, indeed I should have stuck with Zeroim and Taharos.

Carl, got all the trees right but looked right past the forest.

The point I was attempting to make was that IF the Bavli were designed to be the
BE all and END all of TSBP, they woulda/shoulca/coulda included all 63 
masechtos.  TB did not.  Which implies to me that the Gemoro did not consider 
itself as  nigmar (lo loech hamlocho ligmor)  and threfore it was never designed
as a stand-alonge sefer (unlike the Rambam's Yad!)  Adn therefore one was 
expected to do Mishanyos and possibly Tosefta etc. in order to round out TSBP, 
and perhaps even Yreshulmi (certainly for Sheklim) but possibly for Zeroim too. 
Which leads me to conclude that the TB was never intended as a "totality" just 
the first and foremost amongst "equals".

I would also suggest from the design and style of both the Rif and the Me'eiri 
that they presupposed one was not consulting shas when using those Seofrim 
(unlke Rashi, Tosfos, Rosh, Ramban, etc.)  Which seesm to imply that those 2 
seofrim, plus the Rambam's Yad would have been considered valid indepednent 
limudim regardless of whether or not one learned shas "inside".   The fact is of
course that we "reject" taht supposition and expect talmiddim to learn Shas 
inside before consulting those Seforim.  But it seems a strecth to me to say the
machbrim had that in mind.

Rich Wolpoe




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: value of shas  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/9/2000 7:40 AM


On 5 Jan 00, at 11:14, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> A Few rambles on this 
> 
> 1) What about Tosefta, Mechilto, Sifro, and Sifrei?  What is there relative 
> status?

I think they're considered to be like Mishnayos.

> 2) Does your definition of Shas include yerushalmi?

Yeurshalmi is not as popular to learn, not only because of what 
has become a language gap, but because it is a cryptic style and 
because there are far fewer Rishonim who actually wrote on 
Yerushalmi. It is simply much more difficult to understand pshat in 
the words, which detracts from the "lomdus." There is a Daf Yomi 
Yerushalami here (takes about 3-4 years), but I don't have the 
impression that it is that popular (certainly nowhere near as popular 
as Bavli Daf Yomi).

> some more rambles:
> 
> 1) If TB were the definitve be-all adn end-all, how come so many masechtos are
> omitted from the original 63 found in the mishna, eg most of Zeroim, most of 
> Kodshim? 

Because they were not so nogea l'maaseh outside of Eretz Yisrael 
and after the Churban.

Actually there is Bavli on most of Kodshim (Zvachim, Menachos, 
Chullin, Bchoros, Erechin, Tmura, Krisus, Tamid, Meila). Did you 
mean Taharos? 

> 2) And as we know that while TY has zeroim and TB does not - what does that sa
y 
> about the Seder halimud in Bovel?  

That they weren't in EY :-) 

-- Carl

I know this is off topic, so sorry.

But a close friend of mine just found out she has to go to Silicon Valley 
for a week.

She is looking for a list of kosher restaurants, specifically in the in the 
San Jose & San Mateo area.


Thanks,

/aviva




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

See Shamash.org for a Jewish Travel Forum that handles these kinds of questions

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Need list of Kosher restaurants in Silicon Valley 

I know this is off topic, so sorry.

But a close friend of mine just found out she has to go to Silicon Valley 
for a week.

She is looking for a list of kosher restaurants, specifically in the in the 
San Jose & San Mateo area.


Thanks,

/aviva

Still would like to hear from any resident israeli lawyers or otherwise
knowledgeable individuals re the state (or not) if any yibbums in israel,
whether sepharadi or ashkenazi.  does the public law outlawing yibbum also
apply to unmarrieds who both want it, if so does it happen anyway? 

Mechy Frankel, n"a				H:  (301) 593-3949
michael.frankel@dtra.mil				W: (703) 325-1277

Still cleaning up back stuff: someone asked about Novorodik:
There is little question (imho of course) that the novorodik school of
musar, at least in its original manifestation - and they have also undergone
a  remarkable metamorphosis over time - is musar so loony  that it probably
would take a real baal musar to love them.  Like all true musar yeshivas
they had the educational goal of producing a new person, unlike other musar
yesivos however, the study of traditional talmud was far down on the list of
important things to do with their time and no publically recognized first
class talmidei chachomim were associated with it. Their shitah involved a
"shiviras hamidos", i.e. man's natural inclinations were bound to be
completely evil and had to be completely expunged in order to be rebuilt
(sounds like vietnam) in the Novorodik image of the musar mentsch. The means
used to accomplish this were bizarre, with a favorite tactic being the
execution of pi'eelos, actions which would call down upon them public scorn
and humiliation as this was a cure-all for expunging the universal sin of
pride.  Thus novorodikers might enter crowded stores, go to the head of the
line, and start davening shimoneh esreh at the top of their lungs while
refusing to be moved - or they might go to the pharmacist and ask to buy
some nails.  Unlike other musar yeshivos which paid great attention to
external dignity, these guys would specifically dress in ripped and dirty
clothes, even on a shabbos, indeed would specific splatter their clothes
with mud on Friday to prepare for shabbos. if "useful" they were even
advised to break torah laws to support the higher purpose of wallowing in
the whole humiliating gestalt.  Gevalt. They disliked baalei baatim, indeed
they disliked everybody.  (oddly enough, the only vaguely associative
parallel which springs to my mind is a chasidic one - specifically the weird
pesichza crowd in the days of r. bunim and then the kotzker  - but at least
those guys could outlearn everybody else). organizational innovations that
were part of the novorodek "derech" but were not to be found elsewhere - at
last in the yeshiva world -  included regular self criticism sessions,
organization of the yeshiva into separate va'ads, i.e. very tightly knit
cells of about ten talmidim each which might review your progress and
discuss appropriate pi'eelos, and street activism. if such touches might
sound more familiar to your average marxist revolutionary - doubtless that's
because it was borrowed from the local marxist revolutionaries some of whom
were yeshiva students who got caught up in the russian revolutionary
activities of 1905 .    

With this kind of an intellectual pedigree, you might think that such a
"school" would have followed the usual brief worldline associated with
cults.  Go figure. In fact they became wildly successful, at least following
WWI. But this required a 180 degree change of direction by the rosh yeshiva
(R Y. Horowitz) who was niftar during WWI.  Forced to flee novorodek during
WWI, the talmidim dispersed widely and started to dwindle rapidly.  The rosh
yeshiva issued a new call to start a qiruv program - lizacos es harabbim.
Instead of despising everybody who wasn't part of their group they now
abruptly switched to an active evangelical mode.  Following WWI, some of the
loonier manifestations became rarer.  The widely dispersed talmidim opened
branches in many different towns and invaded poland.  somehow Novorodek
transformed itself from a highly insular and downright cuckoo school, to a
movement with mainline aspirations. It held conventions with representatives
of the various branch yeshivos voting in council  It grew like gangbusters
between the world wars becoming more respectable as its origins were left
behind i believe they had around seventy affiliated schools during the
interwar years.   Not real sure what the story is today and would be
grateful if someone else could feel in re current status of the movement
infrastructure. .

Mechy Frankel, n"a				H:  (301) 593-3949
michael.frankel@dtra.mil				W: (703) 325-1277

> 
> After completing the biography, none of us could find anything that could
> lead us to indicate that Rabbi Soloveitchik was in any way, shape or form,
> supportive of what is colloquially termed “Modern Orthodox”.  If anything,
> Rabbi Soloveitchik held tight to mesora.
> 
> Given that, how can Rabbi Soloveitchik be called the father of modern
> orthodoxy? Or is such a title a misnomer?
> 

What makes you think modern orthodox is against mesoarh?

Eli Turkel

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> Is it R. Aaron's shito to be chocheish for view of a
> Meiuta?

No.  I believe that R. Aaron just follows the Shitos
of Beis Brisk (who are their own miyut).

HM
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In v4n263, Yitzchok Zirkind <Yzkd@aol.com> wrote:
:> So if we can not leave kosher meat unsupervised in the presence of a 
:>  non-Jewish person, how do we justify the widespread practice of parents 
:>  going to work the while leaving their children with a non-Jewish sitter?

: The din od Basar Shnisaleim Min Hoayin, is not "in the presence of a 
: non-Jewish person" we can also be Chosheish for Achborim.

Is that a two-button achbar, or a three button version? Actually, this only
adds to the metaphor. As does Gil Student's <gil.student@citicorp.com> comment
in the same digest:
: However, we don't pasken like the gezeira of basar hane'elam min ha'ayin.
: Meat is mutar if you can recognize it.

The parallel: it's mutar to leave your kid with a non-Jewish babysitter once in
a while, but not so often that you can't recognize what's going on in his life.

After the shootings in Colombine, a major issue raised about the killer
was that he was left alone with an achbar for hours on end, and his parents
didn't know what was going on in his head.

I hate to disagree with Sammy Ominsky's optimism, but yes, many kids are left
with non-Jewish "housekeepers" or nannies for much of the day. Rebbetzin
Jungreis once printed a letter from a person who remembered her parents
locking up the silverware before leaving for work. She wondered, "They don't
trust this lady with the silverware, but they leave her in charge of me?"

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 10-Jan-00: Levi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 97a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 1/10/00 5:11:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Michael.Frankel@dtra.mil writes:

> Though
>  unquestionably extremely intelligent and able there is good reason to
>  believe he was illiterate, probably a learning disability.

I have read much about him, and take exception to such a slander, of an ARi 
Hachai.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

*********************


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