Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 280

Wednesday, January 12 2000

• RE: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Re: Avodah V4 #279-talking in shul
• Re: Women Davening
• RE: hareidi and internet
• Re: "How to justify talking in shul as a means of encouraging attendance?" (was Re: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking )
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #279-talking in shul
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Re: Haredim and Internet
• Re: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• Re: Another Interesting Phenomenon
• RE: Avodah V4 #277
• RE: Avodah V4 #277

> I know the Teshuvos pro and con. Chasidim were always
> Machmir because of their tendancy to go Lifnim
> Meshuras Hadin in matters of public Tznius (as opposed
> to being mekil in matters of Ervah in private.

You are not claiming chassidim are mekil in matters of Ervah in private, are
you?

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In a message dated 00-01-12 01:50:03 EST, you write:

<<  One of the differences between an O
 shul and a C shul is that in a O shul, most people
 know why they are there and don't look at it as the
 "Synogogue" but as the place where one goes so that he
 can Daven with a minyan.  In a C shul most people look
 at it as the "Synogogue", sort of like "this is where
 G-d lives". Rabbis of most Orthodox shuls understand
 this and some have occasionally been seen to carry on
 a conversation or 2 with a bal Habos themselves. 
 Those Rabbis for the most part realize that their
 members will not misconstrue this as not having
 respect. >>
I think that the Rov zt'l says in Shiurim L'Zechr Abba Mari that the beis 
haknesses is the place where God lives, and I see nothing wrong with viewing 
it in that way.After all, it is a 'mikdash me'at.' About a month and a half 
ago I was at an Orthodox(not MO) shul on Shabbos and the gabai at the foot of 
the bimah was very openly discussing- during the haftarah if I recall 
correctly- some business venture, or stock tip, with one or two other 
people.Someone came over and complained,and he said half -jokingly, half 
-seriously-and in Yidddish no less- that it's a shul, not a cemetery. 
A cavalier attitude to talking in shul very easily leads to this kind of 
situation.Besides constituting sicah beteilah in shul and disturbing others' 
concentration on the haftarah or whatever other part of davening is involved, 
it was also a very public violation of dabeir davar. This is not the only 
shul where I have heard business deals being discussed on Shabbos during 
davening. Why shouldn't there be an insistence on decorum in shul? Ignoring 
it leads to the circus-like situation I witnessed that Shabbos. 

In message , Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes
>
>Women are required to Daven but it isn't exactly clear
>what they are required to daven.  There is one opinion
>that says that they are Yotze with just Brachos and
>don't have to daven Shmone Esreh.

Souce please (other than the Magen Avraham that I think I dealt with
pretty extensively in the piece I sent in yesterday)?

What is also fascinating to me is that, so far, a large number of people
have quoted (explicitly or implicitly) this Magen Avraham as the halacha
despite its explicit rejection in the Mishna Brura (and implicit
rejection elsewhere, as I explained yesterday), and despite the fact
that the language of the Magen Avraham is hardly what one would call
definitive ie the argument that maybe women have something to rely on in
what they do is hardly what one would describe as a l'chatchila
position, and yet for some reason the accepted wisdom of the olam is
that is functions as such.

That is, not only have women "learnt" that it is OK not to daven, men
have also "learnt" the basis as being the Magen Avraham, without, it
would seem, ever have recourse to the source itself or the other
discussions.  

I must confess I find the whole thing fascinating.

>HM
>______________

Regards

Chana


-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

> I have been reading that it is not clear that internet/computers in
> schools actually improve learning - either because it's not used
> properly or because it is inherently a poor classroom tool.

In most schools, computers are used for rote learning/drilling of material.
It basically becomes a sophisticated flash card.

The one area where computers *are* useful is in teaching problem solving
techniques. Professor Papert at MIT has been researching this area for
decades. (See his book MINDSTORMS for details).

As far as the Internet as an education tool for schools -- I have seen a two
studies, both of which claim that there is no real benefit to using the
Internet, except to teach the students how to use the tools (e-mail, web
browser, etc). As a source of factual information for a person looking for
basic/introductory material it is poor because there is so much non-factual
data available on the web, presented as factual. How does the student know
what is accurate and what isn't?

Once a person can discriminate between the factual and non-factual, then the
web becomes useful. This usually happens at the college level.

Akiva




A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

On 12 Jan 00, at 8:48, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:

> 
> > Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:41:46 -0500
> > From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> > Subject: Re[2]: Regular Shul Attendance and Talking
> [del for bw]
> 
> > (If so, can we re-dub this thread  "How to justify talking
> in shul as a means of
> > encouraging attendance?"  <big smile>
> >
> > Rich Wolpoe
> 
> (humour alert!)
> 
> A few weeks ago someone handed out in Shul a flyer (they
> should have waited for Purim), in questionnaire format,
> headed with the information that a computer company has been
> hired to sort the seating arrangments so that every person
> can sit according to the topic they wish to discuss.
> 
> They allowed 2 options, so that a person can have one
> neighbour for Tefilla and another choice for Kri'at
> Ha'Torah.
> 
> Then there was a list with boxes where you could mark an X.
> 
> Anyone know the origin or where I can get another copy?

If you're talking about the questionnaire for where you want to sit on 
Rosh HaShanna and who you want to sit next to and see over the 
Mechitza, I have it at home in my humor files (yes, I run two humor 
lists in my copious free time between midnight and 2:00 A.M. every 
night :-) and if enough people want it, I can post it from home 
tonight.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

--- Yzkd@aol.com wrote:

> ???

I have obsereved many a chasidic wedding where the
chasan and kallah don't even sit togethjer at all
during the wedding, even during sheva Brachos.  R.
Eichenstien's daughter who married the Vishnitzer
Rebbe's grandaughter in Bnei Brak, had seperate
buildings for men and women for the Seudas Mitzvah. 
Chasisic Men often walk a few steps ahead of their
wives in public, for  Tznius reasons.  Satmar women
cover their Sheitels with a hat for tznius reasons. 
And on and on.

On the other side of the coin I have heard that
Chasidic poskim are more Mekil than Misnagdic Poskim
when it comes to paskening hilchos Nidah (Ksomos). 
They also have something called a Mitzvah Tanz where
the Chasan and Kallah hold hands while they dance,
after the wedding is over and mostly only family
members remain which seems a little ridiculous
considering the lengths they go to to separate men and
women during the more public wedding and Seudah. 

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

A couple of quick observations (see why I prefer the term Observant to Orthodox 
it puns much better <smile>!)

1) I heard that the term Beis Knesses is davka used over Beis Tefillo (which is 
a more specific term re: davening) in order to acknowldge the social aspects.  
This is NOT a heter to chat during davening, rather it refers to the communal 
nature of the process with which we practice our davening...

2) In my wife's shul in Norfolk, Va, they davka have a kiddush every Shabbas and
the rabbi emeirtus would "shush" the people by saying, look we provide you with 
a kiddush davka in order to facilitate socializing THEN as opposed to during 
davening.  IOW, they pragmaticaly realize that people like to chat with friends 
they see on Shabbos, so in order not to disturb the daveing, the ensure there is
a kiddush every shabbos to channel the talking THERE as opposed to in the mokom 
Tefillo.  Assuming that this technique works to reduce davening, the word 
Kiddush becomes a double entendre for Kiddush Shabbos and Kiddush Mikdosh in 
that it preserves the decorum in the "sanctuary"

Imagine if noisy shuls would consider some kind of kiddush or group discussions 
after davening in order to reducet the Yetzer horo to chat during davening...

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #279-talking in shul 
 <snip>
I think that the Rov zt'l says in Shiurim L'Zechr Abba Mari that the beis 
haknesses is the place where God lives, and I see nothing wrong with viewing 
it in that way.After all, it is a 'mikdash me'at.' 

<snip>
 Ignoring it leads to the circus-like situation I witnessed that Shabbos. 

Aryeh Stein wrote

"I have heard (and I have witnessed on one occasion) that 
R' Aaron Shechter won't stay for the meal at a wedding if there 
is mixed seating.  "

Is this what "people say"? Or do you know someone who asked him?
For example, on that one occasion - perhaps he had somewhere 
else to go?

Harry Maryles wrote
""In Lita zennen mir nit geven makpid" (In Lithuania we weren't 
Makpid)  "

In Lita who came to the seudah? I doubt it was more than family 
and a few close friends. And I would agree that if I had my family 
over for a meal that I would not ask them to sit separately. But 
nowadays a simcha oftentimes is a huge social occasion. Is it OK
to have a mixed seating social event? Is it proper for men and women 
to socialize together?

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

RDFinch wrote: <<
Digitalized, fully-animated versions of all sorts of visual
information will be sent via super-Internet to ubitquitous terminals in
every
house, school, workplace . . . and synagogue. This will include text
repositories as well as e-mail, instant "video" conferencing as well as
entertainment, sports, etc. It will include almost everything, really, and
take over lives.  >>

Considering that one the beneficial effects of dietary restrictions,
restrictions on wine, etc.  was to limit socio-cultural intercourse and
and prevent intermarriage with non-Jews, it seems like you are making
a good case to assur the Internet or at least severely restrict its use.
If Internet is going to inexorably suck us into the vortex of the Western
cultural mainstream, if it will "take over our lives" -- shouldn't we take
precautions against that?  Or do you mean that it will become the
preferred method of information transport but will remain in essence
culturally neutral?

<< This is as inevitable as gravity. It's going to happen even if a few aged
Ashkenazi Gedolim in Israel think it's a bad idea. >>

And presumably if the Gedolim were younger or Sephardic or living
in chu"l their opposition to Internet would be a good idea?

<< If Judaism doesn't adapt, it'll die. That's why it'll adapt.  >>

If anything, I think we have to adapt the Internet to Judaism, not
the other way around.

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?


> Mrs. GA wrote <<< The ikkar is Ratzon Hashem-  the rest is labels.
> However,  we still have need of those labels to some extent- orthodox vs
> reform conversion for example. >>>
>
> Actually, this is a good example of the harm that can come from the
> "orthodox" label. I have too often seen cases where "orthodox conversion"
> means tevilah but not much in the way of accepting mitzvos.
>
> Akiva Miller
>
This is indeed true in some cases. How do you suggest we should go about
validating "Orthodox" conversions?
Incidentally, I know someone who converted through the Israeli Rabbinate.
At the ba'alas tshuva school she attended she was advised to go through a
giur with a private beis din, but without a bracha on the tevila.
Effectively she upgraded her 'hechsher' from "Rabbinate" to "Agudah"  :-)
The school saw she was sincere and knew that a Mattersdorf Beis Din would be
better for her in terms of shidduchim-  this proved to be correct.

  GA

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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=3D
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.=20
You are welcome to browse my website at: =
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.=20

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer=20
  To: avodah@aishdas.org=20
  Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:50 AM
  Subject: Another Interesting Phenomenon


  A new era in religious Zionism

  By Yair Sheleg
  With the approach of the High Holy Days last fall, students at =
Bar-Ilan
  University were invited to attend prayer services in a congregation =
defined
  as having a Habakkuk format. This format combines the influences of =
four
  religious groups - Habad (or Lubavitcher Hasidism), Bratzlav, Kook =
(Rabbi
  Kook) and Carlebach (Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach, creator of the phenomenon =
of the
  modern Hasidic nigun or tune). Hence the name: Habakkuk.

  But Habakkuk is far more than a manner of praying. It is also the code =
name
  for four schools of Jewish thought that are having an increasing =
impact on
  religious Zionism, especially among the members of the younger =
generation.
  Habakkuk represents a new direction, if you will, a new era in =
religious
  Zionism. Essentially, this new orientation sees the search for a =
spiritual
  experience, not just the observance of halachic precepts, as the core =
of
  modern Jewish life.


  Reply: =20

  It is important to note that both Breslov and Chabad -  ostensibly =
part of the "Chabakuk" synthesis - both stress the importance of =
learning halacha and abiding by it- often lemehadrin.  Any genuine =
spiritual experience should actually strengthen a person's commitment to =
halachah and ratzon Hashem in general.  Many individuals are coming into =
the "Chabakuk" hashkafos from this angle. Individuals who seek a =
spiritual experience for its own sake are clearly on very dangerous =
ground, and may well be sacrificing real concerns in this pursuit. On =
the other hand, individuals who seek to be closer to Hashem and, on the =
way,  enjoy spiritual experiences do need to take care that they don't =
get sidetracked, but if they do stay with the mesora we can't really =
fault them.  As with any issue, one has to be careful not to generalise. =
Chabakuk is not a cult-  it has NO one living charismatic leader. It's a =
sort of a derech which has been chosen independently by many individuals =
who care about ratzon Hashem and closeness to Hashem- dvekus. Each of =
these individuals has a different path and comes from a different place. =
 For those many participants who do abide by halacha, sincerely study =
their seforim and care about ratzon Hashem, I think this can only be a =
positive phenomenon.  As with any part of Torah, sufficient education =
and Rabbinic guidance is the key- and this is admittedly rather young in =
"Chabak/Chabakuk"-  though I anticipate it will pick up momentum. Mrs. =
GA=20



  =20




  =20




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=3D=3D=3D<BR>Mrs. Gila=20
Atwood<BR>We are pixels in G-d's imagination. <BR>You are welcome to =
browse my=20
website at: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html">http://www.beresh=
itsoftware.com/gila/main.html</A><BR>a=20
little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs. =
<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu"=20
  title=3Dsbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M.=20
  Bechhofer</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:avodah@aishdas.org"=20
  title=3Davodah@aishdas.org>avodah@aishdas.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 11, 2000 =
7:50=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Another Interesting=20
  Phenomenon</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
  <P>A new era in religious Zionism<BR><BR>By Yair Sheleg<BR>With the =
approach=20
  of the High Holy Days last fall, students at Bar-Ilan<BR>University =
were=20
  invited to attend prayer services in a congregation defined<BR>as =
having a=20
  Habakkuk format. This format combines the influences of =
four<BR>religious=20
  groups - Habad (or Lubavitcher Hasidism), Bratzlav, Kook =
(Rabbi<BR>Kook) and=20
  Carlebach (Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach, creator of the phenomenon of =
the<BR>modern=20
  Hasidic nigun or tune). Hence the name: Habakkuk.<BR><BR>But Habakkuk =
is far=20
  more than a manner of praying. It is also the code name<BR>for four =
schools of=20
  Jewish thought that are having an increasing impact on<BR>religious =
Zionism,=20
  especially among the members of the younger generation.<BR>Habakkuk =
represents=20
  a new direction, if you will, a new era in religious<BR>Zionism. =
Essentially,=20
  this new orientation sees the search for a spiritual<BR>experience, =
not just=20
  the observance of halachic precepts, as the core of<BR>modern Jewish=20
  life.<BR></P>
  <P>Reply:&nbsp; </P>
  <P>It is important to note that both Breslov and Chabad -&nbsp; =
ostensibly=20
  part of the "Chabakuk" synthesis - both stress the importance of =
learning=20
  halacha and abiding by it- often lemehadrin.&nbsp; Any genuine =
spiritual=20
  experience should actually strengthen a person's commitment to =
halachah and=20
  ratzon Hashem in general.&nbsp; Many individuals are coming into the=20
  "Chabakuk" hashkafos from this angle. Individuals who seek a spiritual =

  experience for its own sake are clearly on very dangerous ground, and =
may well=20
  be sacrificing real concerns in this pursuit. On the other hand, =
individuals=20
  who seek to be closer to Hashem and, on the way,&nbsp; enjoy spiritual =

  experiences do need to take care that they don't get sidetracked, but =
if they=20
  do stay with the mesora we can't really fault them.&nbsp; As with any =
issue,=20
  one has to be careful not to&nbsp;generalise. Chabakuk is not a =
cult-&nbsp; it=20
  has NO one living charismatic leader. It's a sort of a derech which =
has been=20
  chosen independently by many individuals who care about ratzon Hashem =
and=20
  closeness to Hashem- dvekus.&nbsp;Each of these individuals has a =
different=20
  path and comes from a different place.&nbsp; For those many =
participants who=20
  do abide by&nbsp;halacha, sincerely study their seforim and&nbsp;care =
about=20
  ratzon Hashem, I think this can only be a positive =
phenomenon.&nbsp;&nbsp;As=20
  with any part of Torah, sufficient education and Rabbinic guidance is =
the key-=20
  and this is admittedly rather young in "Chabak/Chabakuk"-&nbsp; though =
I=20
  anticipate it will pick up momentum. Mrs. GA </P>
  <P>&nbsp;</P>
  <P>&nbsp;</P>
  <P>&nbsp;</P>
  <P><BR>&nbsp;</P>
  <P>&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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	With all due respect I don't think Micha Berger's arguements for the
internet are so strong. 

	>>I agree with Dr. Backon on this. Think of all the chareidi ba'alei
batim
> who could have otherwised grabbed some divrei Torah to read in their spare
> time. Not to mention venues like this one. Mi shebeirach lists.
> Instructions
> for building a succah. There is a web site notifying of events, shiurim,
> davening times, house sales and other "bulletin board notices" of the frum
> kehillah of my neighborhood. Vi'od, vi'od
> 
	All the divrei torah and email lists I recieve come via email. I
very rarely go on line to access any divrei torah. One could still have a
ban on the internet and benefit from all of the above through email.

	.>>  My commute home was spent with
	a teshuvah (in Hebrew, PDF) that I downloaded while waiting for the
car
	service.

	There are other options besides downloading copies of teshuvos from
the internet. If you make sure to carry a sefer with you when you travel
then you will always have something to learn when you have a few miuntes to
spare. By the way where is the internet site that you used to get the
teshuva?

  

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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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With respect to vending machines on Shabbos, I recently heard R' Frand
discuss this issue, and he explained that, in order to alleviate problems of
doing business on Shabbos, the owner of the vending machine should have in
mind (before Shabbos) the following two things regarding any person who buys
something from the machine on Shabbos:

	1) to be makneh the item to the person before shabbos; and
	2) not to be koneh the money that is deposited in the machine until
after Shabbos (while a person's chotzeir is koneh shelo midaas, it is 	not
koneh if the person has specific daas not to be koneh). 

These considerations would appear to have applicability to on-line
transactions as well.

kt
Aryeh


================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:28:40 +0000
From: David Herskovic <crucible@talk21.com>
Subject: Web sites on shabes

Is a business that takes on line orders allowed to be 'open' on shabes?
I suppose the same question applies to vending machines in public places
whether they are allowed to function on shabes.

Dovid Herskovic

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>With respect to vending machines on Shabbos, I =
recently heard R' Frand discuss this issue, and he explained that, in =
order to alleviate problems of doing business on Shabbos, the owner of =
the vending machine should have in mind (before Shabbos) the following =
two things regarding any person who buys something from the machine on =
Shabbos:</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>1) to be =
makneh the item to the person before shabbos; and</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>2) not to =
be koneh the money that is deposited in the machine until =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; after Shabbos (while a person's chotzeir is koneh =
shelo midaas, it is &nbsp; not koneh if the person has specific daas =
not to be koneh). </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>These considerations would appear to have =
applicability to on-line transactions as well.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>kt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Aryeh</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:28:40 +0000</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: David Herskovic =
&lt;crucible@talk21.com&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Web sites on shabes</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is a business that takes on line orders allowed to be =
'open' on shabes?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I suppose the same question applies to vending =
machines in public places</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>whether they are allowed to function on =
shabes.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dovid Herskovic</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>

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